the moral implications of the lasso

[kane]

I do not read WW comics and I know her only from JLA comics, so I do not know if the issue was ever adressed in a comic or a thread. As far as I know her lasso forces people into submission or at least forces them to tell the truth. Have ever someone noticed that it is basically mind rape? She is forcing people to do something they do not want to do by breaking their will, which in my opinion is problematic.

We have the American Convention on Human Rights, the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union, the European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedom, the United Nations Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (CAT) etc., which all basically state "No one shall be subjected to torture or to inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment."

I am quite sure that if we had something like the lasso in the real world it would be forbidden in the conventions and in the criminal law statutes and other statutes. But even without an explicit mention it would be forbidden, because the conventions state: "No one shall be subjected to [...] inhuman or degrading treatment [...]." In my opinion the use of the lasso is a highly degrading and inhuman treatment. One could argue that mind rape is even worse than physical torture, because it assaults your most private thing, the only thing you really have for yourself - your private thoughts (and of course your right to remain silent and your right to not incriminate yourself). Is is not different than the use of truth serum, which is considered a form of torture in real life.

I know that WW is not a state and not a policewomen etc., so she is not bound by the rules of the conventions. But should she not respect the idea behind the conventions, should she not respect the standards set by these conventions? How can one say she loves humanity etc. if she breaks one of the basic human rights and mindrapes people with her lasso.

[Rob_Olivera]

I do not read WW comics and I know her only from JLA comics, so I do not know if the issue was ever adressed in a comic or a thread. As far as I know her lasso forces people into submission or at least forces them to tell the truth. Have ever someone noticed that it is basically mind rape? She is forcing people to do something they do not want to do by breaking their will, which in my opinion is problematic.

We have the American Convention on Human Rights, the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union, the European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedom, the United Nations Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (CAT) etc., which all basically state "No one shall be subjected to torture or to inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment."

I am quite sure that if we had something like the lasso in the real world it would be forbidden in the conventions and in the criminal law statutes and other statutes. But even without an explicit mention it would be forbidden, because the conventions state: "No one shall be subjected to [...] inhuman or degrading treatment [...]." In my opinion the use of the lasso is a highly degrading and inhuman treatment. One could argue that mind rape is even worse than physical torture, because it assaults your most private thing, the only thing you really have for yourself - your private thoughts (and of course your right to remain silent and your right to not incriminate yourself). Is is not different than the use of truth serum, which is considered a form of torture in real life.

I know that WW is not a state and not a policewomen etc., so she is not bound by the rules of the conventions. But should she not respect the idea behind the conventions, should she not respect the standards set by these conventions? How can one say she loves humanity etc. if she breaks one of the basic human rights and mindrapes people with her lasso.

Ideally you raise some decent points, which have been discussed in the comic itself at some point or another. Wonder Woman's lasso does not hold-up in court for some of the very same reasons you mentioned. She also doesn't use her lasso frivolously, and would never.

By the same token, you could argue that [some versions present or past of] Batman could theoretically have denied a criminal the right to a fair trial with his vigilantism of sorts.

[kane]

Ideally you raise some decent points, which have been discussed in the comic itself at some point or another. Wonder Woman's lasso does not hold-up in court for some of the very same reasons you mentioned. She also doesn't use her lasso frivolously, and would never.

By the same token, you could argue that [some versions present or past of] Batman could theoretically have denied a criminal the right to a fair trial with his vigilantism of sorts.

I am not only talking about court procedure, I am talking about a violation of basic human rights. Soldiers and police are allowed to use force (even lethal) if necessary, but under no circumstances they are allowed to torture (at least here in the Europian Union). This is a line which should not be crossed by any means. And mindrape (it does not matter if by drugs or a magic lasso) is a form of torture. Should WW be not above this?

[randallt]

Technically the argument could be made against any hero/villain with telepathic abilities, especially those with the power to "possess", as well.

[Rob_Olivera]

I am not only talking about court procedure, I am talking about a violation of basic human rights. Soldiers and police are allowed to use force (even lethal) if necessary, but under no circumstances they are allowed to torture (at least here in the Europian Union). This is a line which should not be crossed by any means. And mindrape (it does not matter if by drugs or a magic lasso) is a form of torture. Should WW be not above this?

I think the phrase "mind rape" is probably a bit inflammatory, and it is definitely not torture. Unlike Batman, Wonder Woman hasn't really had the habitual need to deal with your typical street thugs anyway. She's typically dealing with either super powered (often "evil") metahumans or Gods. In the nu52 (in issue 7) it has also been implied that the lasso doesn't even contain those properties anymore, and instead they're hinting that the rope is nothing but an excuse to extend her own innate powers.

[kane]

Technically the argument could be made against any hero/villain with telepathic abilities, especially those with the power to "possess", as well.

I agree. But I specially adressed WW, because people on this forum are holding her up to a very high standard. She is supposed to be an ambassador of peace, loving all humans, be a beacon of morality, an example and inspiration for other poeple etc. Should she no know better, act better then the common villain/hero? I like Wolverine despite him torturing and killing (often slaughtering) criminals because this is who he is - he is a hard man with an animalistic side, with a eye for an eye attiude. But he never claims to be more and also his fans (usually) do not claim that he is more.

[kane]

I think the phrase "mind rape" is probably a bit inflammatory, and it is definitely not torture. Unlike Batman, Wonder Woman hasn't really had the habitual need to deal with your typical street thugs anyway. She's typically dealing with either super powered (often "evil") metahumans or Gods. In the nu52 (in issue 7) it has also been implied that the lasso doesn't even contain those properties anymore, and instead they're hinting that the rope is nothing but an excuse to extend her own innate powers.

Lasso or her own innate powers - the result is the same. And I do not see a difference between the use of a truth serum, which is internationally considered torture and the lasso of truth. And it is a mind rape. It invades a person`s mind against his will and forces him to speak his private thoughts, which he wants to keep hidden. And torture does not have to be physical, even the threat of torture is considered (psychological) torture (at least in the European Union, I do not know about the USA). Torture can be also psychological. And even if we do not consider it torture, the conventions mentioned by me also condemn inhuman or degrading treatment. And your mind being invaded. being deprived of your own free will, being forced to give away your private thoughts is inhuman and degrading.

[Outside_85]

I am not only talking about court procedure, I am talking about a violation of basic human rights. Soldiers and police are allowed to use force (even lethal) if necessary, but under no circumstances they are allowed to torture (at least here in the Europian Union). This is a line which should not be crossed by any means. And mindrape (it does not matter if by drugs or a magic lasso) is a form of torture. Should WW be not above this?

I would ask if Diana has personally signed the charter that defines Human Rights.

If she has, then yes, you have a point.

If not, then you don't.

Added you can ask this same question to just about every superhero out there, since they have all pretty much had to force information out of someone at one time or another. Diana however is possibly the most humane since her method doesn't hurt, it doesn't risk side effects and she doesn't (or rather didn't) need to scare the pants off people to get her answers.

[carabas]

Lasso or her own innate powers - the result is the same. And I do not see a difference between the use of a truth serum, which is internationally considered torture...

It should be noted that 'truth serum' is psychotropic drugs that can have long-lasting or permnanent severe physical and mental effects and can even be fatal.
There is absolutely no comparison between 'truth serums' as they exist in real life and Wonder Woman's lasso.

[kane]

I would ask if Diana has personally signed the charter that defines Human Rights.

If she has, then yes, you have a point.

If not, then you don't.

Added you can ask this same question to just about every superhero out there, since they have all pretty much had to force information out of someone at one time or another. Diana however is possibly the most humane since her method doesn't hurt, it doesn't risk side effects and she doesn't (or rather didn't) need to scare the pants off people to get her answers.

I am quite sure there are people out there who would consider being mindraped more invasive and worse that being beaten up.

And I think I adressed your other points already in other posts, so I will just quote myself:

"I know that WW is not a state and not a policewomen etc., so she is not bound by the rules of the conventions. But should she not respect the idea behind the conventions, should she not respect the standards set by these conventions? How can one say she loves humanity etc. if she breaks one of the basic human rights and mindrapes people with her lasso."

"[...]. I specially adressed WW, because people on this forum are holding her up to a very high standard. She is supposed to be an ambassador of peace, loving all humans, be a beacon of morality, an example and inspiration for other poeple etc. Should she no know better, act better then the common villain/hero? I like Wolverine despite him torturing and killing (often slaughtering) criminals because this is who he is - he is a hard man with an animalistic side, with a eye for an eye attiude. But he never claims to be more and also his fans (usually) do not claim that he is more."

[Outside_85]

It should be noted that 'truth serum' is psychotropic drugs that can have long-lasting or permnanent severe physical and mental effects and can even be fatal.
There is absolutely no comparison between 'truth serums' as they exist in real life and Wonder Woman's lasso.

Also of note that the 'truth serum' has changed over time with the development of drugs...used to be LSD once.

[kane]

It should be noted that 'truth serum' is psychotropic drugs that can have long-lasting or permnanent severe physical and mental effects and can even be fatal.
There is absolutely no comparison between 'truth serums' as they exist in real life and Wonder Woman's lasso.

But this is not the point. The threat of torture is also forbidden, despite it having no side effects.

I am quite sure that even if there were no side effects truth serum would be forbidden because it takes aways your dignity, your choice, your right to keep your private and your intimate thoughts to yourself.

[Outside_85]

I am quite sure there are people out there who would consider being mindraped more invasive and worse that being beaten up.

Thing is that they aren't being mindraped, Diana doesn't go into people's heads the way the Manhunter or any other psychic does.

"I know that WW is not a state and not a policewomen etc., so she is not bound by the rules of the conventions. But should she not respect the idea behind the conventions, should she not respect the standards set by these conventions? How can one say she loves humanity etc. if she breaks one of the basic human rights and mindrapes people with her lasso."

She does respect them, she just favours the actual victims of a crime rather than the rights of a potential felon.

"[...]. I specially adressed WW, because people on this forum are holding her up to a very high standard. She is supposed to be an ambassador of peace, loving all humans, be a beacon of morality, an example and inspiration for other poeple etc. Should she no know better, act better then the common villain/hero? I like Wolverine despite him torturing and killing (often slaughtering) criminals because this is who he is - he is a hard man with an animalistic side, with a eye for an eye attiude. But he never claims to be more and also his fans (usually) do not claim that he is more."

The thing is that what you are saying is assuming all humans behave and conform to some rules most have never read. Also you are leaving out she is more than just a diplomat.

That said, I think Diana would feel horrible about herself if someone died or was seriously injured because she didn't use the Lasso on someone.

[kane]

Thing is that they aren't being mindraped, Diana doesn't go into people's heads the way the Manhunter or any other psychic does.

It is still mindrape. It invades people minds and breaks their will. The method (not the goals of course) is not different than Purple Man`s method.

[QUOTE=Outside_85;16168933]
She does respect them, she just favours the actual victims of a crime rather than the rights of a potential felon.


This is a slippery slope. Human rights are granted to everyone, potential felons are not excluded.

And what if the guy was telling the truth before she used the lasso. Like I said I do not read WW, so I do not know: Was there really no instance where she used the lasso to confirm the truth and the guy indeed told her the truth before. Then she mindraped an innocent.

The thing is that what you are saying is assuming all humans behave and conform to some rules most have never read. Also you are leaving out she is more than just a diplomat.

Most people at least heard about the human rights conventions and that stuff like torture, degradation etc. is not allowed. And shouldn`t someone like her, who is hold to a higher standard than the average human being, an inspiration etc... know that.

That said, I think Diana would feel horrible about herself if someone died or was seriously injured because she didn't use the Lasso on someone.

So would a soldier, a policeman etc. So what now, back to the middle ages? No human rights for criminals?

[Outside_85]

It is still mindrape. It invades people minds and breaks their will. The method (not the goals of course) is not different than Purple Man`s method.

And how is that different from someone getting spooked by a policeman reading the risks they are facing by keeping quiet?

This is a slippery slope. Human rights are granted to everyone, potential felons are not excluded.

And what if the guy was telling the truth before she used the lasso. Like I said I do not read WW, so I do not know: Was there really no instance where she used the lasso to confirm the truth and the guy indeed told her the truth before. Then she mindraped an innocent.

As you have not read the comic...try reading a few before you call it rape.

Most people at least heard about the human rights conventions and that stuff like torture, degradation etc. is not allowed. And shouldn`t someone like her, who is hold to a higher standard than the average human being, an inspiration etc... know that.

And I am pretty certain Diana doesn't think she is torturing someone she's roped.

So would a soldier, a policeman etc. So what now, back to the middle ages? No human rights for criminals?

Plenty, it's just you who seem to think the Lasso is an instrument of torture.