Tilting at Windmills - Nov 15, 2012

[Trey]

Where does this leave Image and Dark Horse? They have about 12-15% of the market place, yet looking at the recent solicits, Image is releasing 48 single issues for February 2013. How do they justify releasing so many titles, flooding the market? How do they make money on those titles that sell 5-8,000 if even that many.

Dark Horse, 28 titles
DC 80
Marvel 72

[Brian Hibbs]

What Mr. Hibbs continuously forgets is that, no matter how much he defends the validity of the brick and mortar retailer in the comics process, its time of relevancy has now passed.

Yeah, you're wrong. Epicly so, in fact.

There's a really good reason that Marvel and DC don't reveal digital sales figures -- and that's because they're just a fraction of print sales, and, more importantly, that percentage is not moving in any kind of an appreciable manner.

John Rood is on record as saying that virtually every book has a digital circulation of about 10% of it's print source, and that's very steady across the entire line of comics, and that this hasn't changed in the last year.

An extra 10% on a (growing!!!) print market is great great great, but it is still absolutely and unequivocally print which is driving sales, and will, for the foreseeable future.

What Marvel and DC executives alike will tell you, if you ask them, is that the rule is if something is a flop in comics stores, it's equally a flop digitally. These markets largely move in lockstep. Except digital is on 10% of the size.

So, yeah, Brian, you're insanely wrong.

-B

[ZiggyFakeMcCoy]

Image is releasing 48 single issues for February 2013. How do they justify releasing so many titles, flooding the market? How do they make money on those titles that sell 5-8,000 if even that many.

Because flooding the market IS how Image makes money. Image, as a publisher, doesn't make money off of sales. Image creators pay Image a fee for every realease (something like $2-3k. I forget the exact number). So regardless of whether the book sells 4k or 40k, Image gets their flat fee and nothing else, and then all profit (or loss, unfortunately) goes to the creators.

So since Image's income, as a company, is per-release, their ONLY way of increasing profits is a) increasing the fee on creators, or b) releasing more titles. 48 single issue releases means 48 fees paid.

[Brian Hibbs]

ANd Brian weren't there low selling titles in the 80's 90's that sold 5-10 copies? And are you willing to tell your 10 customers that you won't order JIM, starring the awesome Sif? Go and try this WOlverine book?

In the 80s and early 90s, as I said in the article, I wouldn't order less than 10 copies of ANYthing that Marvel published -- Star comics, or whatever. And they sold.

Obviously, I want to sell my customers the comic books they want -- and the ones that they don't know that they want yet -- it's harder to do that the more titles there are.

Something you have to realize is that the publishers do not care about retailer sales levels. To clarify, DC is perfectly happy selling 30,000 books because that's still 30k worth of sales in their pocket. It doesn't bother them in the least if some store sells 9 of its 10 copies or 3 of its 5 copies.

The executives I know are very interested when things don't sell?

IOW, Brian, you're agreeing that Marvel's double shipping policy is the way to go for retailers?

Brrrr! NO!

All that does is push more readers FROM those titles. There's a reason Marvel can't seem to sell more than 60-65k of any non-"event" comic. They've taken entirely the worst possible reaction to market trends, and they're just pushing them to become them in the face of exploiting them.

Where does this leave Image and Dark Horse? They have about 12-15% of the market place, yet looking at the recent solicits, Image is releasing 48 single issues for February 2013. How do they justify releasing so many titles, flooding the market? How do they make money on those titles that sell 5-8,000 if even that many.

Image isn't a publisher in the sense that we usually mean it -- Image doesn't pay any creative costs, instead creators reap all of the backend. Some of the studios (Top Cow or Shadowline, maybe) are paying traditional page rates, but Image itself doesn't.

Image makes it's money from a per-book fee; thus is actually incentivized to "green light" books "regardless of market potential" (though Eric S and co does have generally good instincts) -- in those 5k sellers cases, the creator is making little to no money for what they've created.

Image IS overprinting in this market, however, I will agree.


-B

[Tony Florence]

"The executives I know are very interested when things don't sell?"

I think that by the content of your blog you've pretty much proven that they don't. If they did care about the 30k or less print run books they'd do something about it. Instead they're cashing in on putting out their monthly versions of "Vibe" or whatever. I'm pretty sure that when these guys put out X-Men Legion or whatever they pretty much have an expectation of how many will sell and about how long the series will last. I'd wager that they're pretty accurate with their predictions. They put out "junk" #1's to make their easy 30k or 40k in sales and the retailers can just lump it if they don't sell an adequate amount.
Also, do you think a Marvel or DC exec would tell a retailer, "Oh we don't really care about how healthy the industry is for you. If you aren't selling things well enough then stop sucking"? At the summit meetings I've had conversations with Bob Wayne and that fellow who always comes for Marvel (can't recall his name off the top of my head) and they are always all "Yes, we totally support the retailers..blah blah blah" but their actual business practices aren't reflected in their lip service.

Tony Florence
www.collectiblesetconline.com

[ZiggyFakeMcCoy]

Anyone who thinks hard working writers, artists, editors, designers, marketing managers, executive editors, and everyone else who puts in 40+ hours a week to get these books on the shelf don't care if they sell is insane. Period.

[Brian Hibbs]

Anyone who thinks hard working writers, artists, editors, designers, marketing managers, executive editors, and everyone else who puts in 40+ hours a week to get these books on the shelf don't care if they sell is insane. Period.

"like"

-B

[Tony Florence]

Anyone who thinks hard working writers, artists, editors, designers, marketing managers, executive editors, and everyone else who puts in 40+ hours a week to get these books on the shelf don't care if they sell is insane. Period.

I think you're confusing DC/Marvel caring about how an item sells in any individual store versus selling 30-40k of a book and hitting their "quota". They care if a book that they have projected to sell 50K copies only selling 25K copies. They don't care if <insert random store here> only sells 14 of their 25 copies of that book.

(sorry for the typos...putting together Legos with my 4 year old while formulating a coherent response can be tough)

Tony Florence
www.collectiblesetconline.com

[Ravenstone]

Anyone who thinks hard working writers, artists, editors, designers, marketing managers, executive editors, and everyone else who puts in 40+ hours a week to get these books on the shelf don't care if they sell is insane. Period.

I'm sure that the people you mention do care about whether or not a book sells. Very much so. But my point is that Marvel and DC aren't stand-alone companies anymore. Their parent organizations have bigger fish to fry than worrying about how many copies of an individual book sell in a given month. They're looking at a much bigger picture that includes billions from film revenues and licensing money. How much profit do you think Marvel made from their publishing line in 2011? It's hard to pin those numbers down, but I'd bet it was less than $50 million. And how much did The Avengers - one film - make worldwide? 10 times that or more? Now, explain to me why Disney cares about Marvel as anything more than a source of intellectual property and licensing?

[ZiggyFakeMcCoy]

You're criticizing Marvel Comics because someone who works at Disney who's job it is to make cartoons doesn't care how much X-Force sells, while completely marginalizing the dozens if not hundreds of people who are employed by MARVEL COMICS who all work very hard and who's job it IS to care how much X-Force and every other book they put out sells, and I can assure you that each one of them does very much.

[Ravenstone]

You're criticizing Marvel Comics because someone who works at Disney who's job it is to make cartoons doesn't care how much X-Force sells, while completely marginalizing the dozens if not hundreds of people who are employed by MARVEL COMICS who all work very hard and who's job it IS to care how much X-Force and every other book they put out sells, and I can assure you that each one of them does very much.

I don't disagree with you. The creators of the books in question do care very much. No argument. But my point is that Marvel is now tied to a larger entity who sees the publishing arm of Marvel as increasingly irrelevant. Do you really think Disney bought Marvel because of the comics they publish every month? Absolutely not. Disney bought Marvel because of the intellectual property Marvel controls, and the opportunity to make money from those properties. Publishing is insignificant in that equation when compared to movie rights, licensing, etc. I'm not marginalizing anyone, I'm just pointing out that if Marvel has value right now, it's not because of the comics they're releasing, but because of the characters they control.

[ZiggyFakeMcCoy]

First of all, you can't call it an IP farm and then say publishing doesn't matter. Publishing IS the farm. Without publishing the IPs would lose their value to other depts, and as being a farm implies, would cease to create new IPs.

Second, the people who DO care how much a book sells are the people who are deciding what to publish. These Disney Overlords who care not about publishing, only the value of the character, aren't the ones choosing to publish these low selling titles. Those choices are being made by Marvel creators and editors who think they have a strong enough hook to give the book a chance, and they care if it succeeds.

No one from Warner Bros is demanding DC publish a Vibe comic. Vibe is being published because (right or wrong) Geoff Johns, Dan Didio and Jim Lee think they have the formula that'll make it stick. I think Hibbs' point is they must be delusional to think that, but none the less, they ARE doing it because they think and hope it will sell, not because this is some WB mandated step one to Vibe: The Animated Series.

[cactusmaac]

Milton Griepp's digital sales estimates. The growth is huge even accounting for DC only moving to same day release when the new 52 launched.

2009 - $1 million
2010 - $6-8 million
2011 - $25 million
2012 - $75 million

http://www.comicbookresources.com:80...ticle&id=41559

DC's John Cunningham, also reckon's DC's digital sales have tripled compared to 2011.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...ticle&id=42153

[whippis]

Why would a Comic Shop stock unprofitable titles to begin with? If you think Vibe is a loser, don't order any. If you feel the risk of losing the dude who comes in as a newbie asking for Vibe is critical to your business I think you're already lost.
Also, now that DC and Marvel are under giant corporate umbrellas I wonder how much, if any, pressure they are under to be independently profitable. Disney and Warner’s don't seem to pimp the comics upon which their movies etc. are based other than to the comic market as it exists. Books store trade sales seem to show where the non-hobby shopper gets their "comics"
Comics is a niche, a hobby. Has been as long I have been reading them (since '81). I have been following Hob’s columns a long time and his and other talk always seems to be wanting and waiting for comics to be "mainstreamed" I agree that with the recent rash of super-movies, digital platforms and the general nerding of today's youth (things once for nerds now more accepted) it would seem that comics should be more widely read. They aren't. And if they aren’t in this environment I doubt they ever will be.

[Brian Hibbs]

Milton Griepp's digital sales estimates. The growth is huge even accounting for DC only moving to same day release when the new 52 launched.

2009 - $1 million
2010 - $6-8 million
2011 - $25 million
2012 - $75 million

Whoopty-fricking-do.

$75m? DM sales, as-reported-by-Diamond alone are $394m (http://www.comichron.com)

Add the $176m we know from BookScan (http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...ticle&id=36900) -- which is, we think, less than half of the proper book market....

I mean, hurray for extra digital money... but it is NOT enough to run the market.

-B