Star Wars (movies only) vs. Star Trek (movies only)

[Surtur]

Your spouting "500 fool tall Death machines" like it matters to a teleporter.

Can the teleporters teleport objects that large?

[The MunchKING]

Your spouting "500 fool tall Death machines" like it matters to a teleporter.

If you're going to try to "Teleport the entire SWU" away, then yeah, what's IN that Universe might matter.

[Dalak]

This really depends on how well the teams work together, as both sides have very bitter enemies on them, so I'm going to assume for fairness we don't have them working against each other.

Bones, Data, Geordi, and like 3 Spock's all prepping together with Borg-Tech, Genesis-Tech, and V-ger Tech are going to be VERY hard to beat.

Things like adaptive wide-angle high-powered cutting-phasers, Beyond-Quantum torpedoes, time portals that can be used to dump foes in the past/future, and weaponized nanoprobes which can be used to turn enemies into allies.

Oh, and while I'm not sure if it counts for this scenario, but in the show Enterprise some Borg revived from the events of First Contact were able to completely restructure parts of the ship just with nanoprobes injected into them.

[Slade]

They've shown Time Travel that creates alternate timelines. Basically they could go to prehistoric Coruscant, kill off all the Wars-Universe Neanderthals and pop forwards again to find themselves alone... And the Wars guys would be back in the original universe wondering where all their opponents fled to.

In First Contact the Borg travelled back in time to destroy the human race. When the Enterprise was caught in the time rift (between the 24th and 21st century) it shows that the Borg succeded in changing the timeline. At the end of First Contact the Enterprise uses time travel to get back to their 24th century and not another.

[Slade]

Can the teleporters teleport objects that large?

They don't have to teleport all of it. Parts of it will do the job just fine.

[Slade]

If you're going to try to "Teleport the entire SWU" away, then yeah, what's IN that Universe might matter.

Except for the fact that 500 foot Death Machines aren't the entire SWU.

[Omegalith]

In First Contact the Borg travelled back in time to destroy the human race. When the Enterprise was caught in the time rift (between the 24th and 21st century) it shows that the Borg succeded in changing the timeline. At the end of First Contact the Enterprise uses time travel to get back to their 24th century and not another.

It's another. Zephram wasn't nearly attacked by Borgs in the original. They just managed to fix it to be sufficiently similar.

[abmccray]

In First Contact the Borg travelled back in time to destroy the human race. When the Enterprise was caught in the time rift (between the 24th and 21st century) it shows that the Borg succeded in changing the timeline. At the end of First Contact the Enterprise uses time travel to get back to their 24th century and not another.

The issue is that they didn't change the timeline. Because "nothing really changed"; it basically became a closed loop.

It's basically, "if you can logically make it a closed loop, then nothing changes (First Contact, the doomed woman episode of the original series, Star Trek 4)." If you screw stuff up, a new timeline is created (2000s Star Trek).

[Slade]

The issue is that they didn't change the timeline. Because "nothing really changed"; it basically became a closed loop.

It's basically, "if you can logically make it a closed loop, then nothing changes (First Contact, the doomed woman episode of the original series, Star Trek 4)." If you screw stuff up, a new timeline is created (2000s Star Trek).

The Borg did change the timeline, but the Enterprise rectified it so it didn't occur. That was the whole point of First Contact. Why would the Enterprise go through the timerift to stop the Borg if it just created another timeline. In fact why would the Borg even try it in the first place. This isnt't Marvel and it's cosomology.

[abmccray]

The Borg did change the timeline, but the Enterprise rectified it so it didn't occur. That was the whole point of First Contact. Why would the Enterprise go through the timerift to stop the Borg if it just created another timeline. In fact why would the Borg even try it in the first place. This isnt't Marvel and it's cosomology.

Because the movies aren't consistent, and First Contact was an action film that shoehorned the Next Generation cast in and made them act off character? Why was Picard acting like Ahab when he had approximately 6 experiences with the Borg since he was transformed?

Going specifically by the results of the movies, it's same timeline time travel until the timeline is significantly changed where a causal loop can't resolve it, then it splits off into a different timeline. it's literally the only real way to consolidate things.

Star Trek 4 and First Contact = causal loop. Star Trek TV show = causal loop. Next Generation/DS9/Voyager = new timelines. Star Trek 2000s = new timelines. That's the only way to consolidate them.

[Omegalith]

The Borg did change the timeline, but the Enterprise rectified it so it didn't occur. That was the whole point of First Contact. Why would the Enterprise go through the timerift to stop the Borg if it just created another timeline.

The Enterprise was already caught in the Sphere's wake, which is why they could even perceive the changes. There wasn't really any turning back at that point, they could either become trapped in the new timeline with Borg Earth, or travel back and minimize the changes enough to return to a world they were still familiar with.

In fact why would the Borg even try it in the first place.

Because they'd die if they didn't. That's why Plan A was conquer Earth in a timeline the rest of the collective would give a crap about. The backup plan was for the escape pod to timetravel to a defenseless Earth and link up with Timeline B's Borg so that the Queen we saw could keep going in a timeline that benefited her personally.

Otherwise Plan A would be to timeshift fifty lightyears out and curbstomp past Earth without alerting present Earth to their plans.

[Slade]

The Enterprise was already caught in the Sphere's wake, which is why they could even perceive the changes. There wasn't really any turning back at that point, they could either become trapped in the new timeline with Borg Earth, or travel back and minimize the changes enough to return to a world they were still familiar with.



Because they'd die if they didn't. That's why Plan A was conquer Earth in a timeline the rest of the collective would give a crap about. The backup plan was for the escape pod to timetravel to a defenseless Earth and link up with Timeline B's Borg so that the Queen we saw could keep going in a timeline that benefited her personally.

Otherwise Plan A would be to timeshift fifty lightyears out and curbstomp past Earth without alerting present Earth to their plans.

Where was all this stated?

[Omegalith]

Where was all this stated?

Stated? They send a cube, it fails, they eject a plan-B time travel sphere instead of blowing up with the rest of the cube, the Enterprise gets caught in it's wake due to following it, they see the changes through the ripples of the time vortexy-thingy, they know they have to follow.

All directly on screen.

[Powerboy]

It's another. Zephram wasn't nearly attacked by Borgs in the original. They just managed to fix it to be sufficiently similar.

What it comes down to is that the way time travel works in Star Trek is not consistent and is pretty much irrelevant for battles. One time, time travel really changes things. Another story, it just creates an alternate time line and the original is just fine.

[Dalak]

I halfway agree with the talk of time travel going on - Guinan was the only one who knew from the beginning that a Time Shift happened when a ship came forward, and it was another Time Loop resulting in another Tasha Yar. Time Loops abound in Trek.

That doesn't mean it's another Dimension though, that wasn't brought up til the new movie as a form of Retcon. Every series had their issues with time travel, in fact in DS9 the only reason Tribbles fell on Kirk's head in ToS (after the initial flood) was because they went back in time and threw them at him accidentally. And in Enterprise there's hints that the reanimated Borg I mentioned earlier sent a message to the Borg of their time, and that's why the Borg first attacked in TNG.