Re-reading Grant Morrison's Doom Patrol for the umpteenth time...

[LoneNecromancer]

I enjoyed Hitman a lot, but couldn't really get into Preacher or Boys.

I read all of Preacher and got about halfway (I think) into Boys. Think I might've preferred the latter; think I preferred the characters in Boys, and out of all of Ennis' making-fun-of-superhero-moments, my favourite was how he dealt with the Captain America expy, though that may just be because I'm not so keen on the character.

Always felt Ennis' work on Hitman and Punisher MAX were far superior to both though, Hitman more so for the much better character work with the boys from Noonan's, and it ended a lot better.

And of course out of the other stuff I've read by Ennis and enjoyed, there was his short run on Midnighter, and his work on Hellblazer (which I've only read some of so I can't talk about at greater length).

Ennis? You mean Garth Ennis? Ugh, I can't stand that guy's work or his characters!

I admit, there's stuff Ennis writes that I wouldn't been keen on as far as the edgy stuff goes...but well, he does it better than most people who try to do edgy stuff nowadays *cough* Millar *cough*.

[Mr. Holmes]

Yeah I don't deny the character work there, and I actually thought the concept behind Boys was awesome. But for me the "bathroom humor" sort of becomes a barrier at a certain point. I forgot about Punisher Max. I've only read a little of it, and should definitely read more.

I don't want to derail the thread, so I'll just add this last bit about Ennis: Has anyone read his Shadow? I think it's one of the less interesting things he's done.

I will say though, I am completely cool with Ennis's irreverent attitude on superheroes.

[LoneNecromancer]

Yeah I don't deny the character work there, and I actually thought the concept behind Boys was awesome. But for me the "bathroom humor" sort of becomes a barrier at a certain point.

I forgot about Punisher Max. I've only read a little of it, and should definitely read more.

I will say though, I am completely cool with Ennis's irreverent attitude on superheroes.

Yeah, I guess. To be honest part of the reason I haven't revisited Boys since stopping reading it was because I was a bit younger then and still a teenager who loved that kind of edgy, bathroom humour (more) so I'm kind of worried if I actually re-read it I wouldn't really care for it.

Punisher MAX is without a doubt the best work the character has ever seen. Rucka's current run is good but it doesn't scratch what Ennis did.

And well, it's always amused me how a guy who isn't keen on superheroes has written Superman much better than a lot of people who were.

[cactusmaac]

Punisher: The End and Hitman #34 should be mandatory reading for any superhero comics fan.

Doom Patrol's my favourite comics run of all time after Lone Wolf and Cub.

Something that's apparent from back then is that the younger Morrison was working on fewer books and had fewer distractions, so he could concentrate more on really crafting his issues.

His Action Comics run now has had it's bright spots but it feels quite patchy and disjointed compared to his Doom Patrol and JLA. Favourite DP moments were the more comedic issues like the Beard Hunter issue, the Brain and Monsieur Mallah and Doom Force.

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources...-the-punisher/

[Shellhead]

I have only read the Morrison run on Doom Patrol three times.

The first time was back in the day, issue by issue. I was actually on board with that run starting with issue #1, hooked in by that Secret Origins Doom Patrol issue by John Byrne. That, plus I liked Steve Lightle's artwork at the time. I did give up a few issues before Morrison started, because I wasn't enjoying the combination of the generic stories and the outlandish early Erik Larsen artwork. But the cover of the first Morrison issue caught my attention and I jumped back in. I loved the first year without exception, all the way through Cliff's journey into Crazy Jane's mind. After that, I slowly but definitely lost enthusiasm. I wasn't sure why, and there were some extreme changes happening in my life at the time while these issues came out month by month. But my enjoyment of the first year kept me going all the way through the end of the Morrison run. I flipped through the first issue by Rachel Pollack and dropped it in horror.

Over a decade ago, I re-read the Morrison Doom Patrol. To be fair, I first re-read the earlier stuff that I had, though it's tough going through those last few issues before I get to the Morrison stuff. This time, I read through everything in one day and had a better feel for my reaction to the decline in quality. Starting with the first appearance of the Men from N.O.W.H.E.R.E., the weirdness began to feel repetitive and somewhat pointless. The big space alien epic failed to engage my interest, though I did enjoy the ending. The origin of LSD at the beginning of issue #50 was thrilling, but the return of the Brotherhood of Dada was daft, and in the final stretch, I think that I was actually skimming more than reading at times.

Last month, I read through all my Doom Patrol issues again, though this time I started with the first Showcase collection of the original Doom Patrol run. That early Doom Patrol was also pretty strange, though strange relative to a period of more conventional comics. This time, I really enjoyed almost the entire Morrison Doom Patrol run. The return of the Brotherhood of Dada was indeed daft, but also fun. And the biggest surprise to me was that the lengthy final storyline was so much better than I remembered, especially the final coda involving Crazy Jane. However, I never have warmed up to the Rebis character, though perhaps that was Morrison's intention.

[Desaad]

I read all of Preacher and got about halfway (I think) into Boys. Think I might've preferred the latter; think I preferred the characters in Boys, and out of all of Ennis' making-fun-of-superhero-moments, my favourite was how he dealt with the Captain America expy, though that may just be because I'm not so keen on the character.

Always felt Ennis' work on Hitman and Punisher MAX were far superior to both though, Hitman more so for the much better character work with the boys from Noonan's, and well, it ended a lot better, I think Ennis stayed on Punisher MAX a bit too long and that he was kinda strapped for ideas after Valley Forge, especially considering his last arc was about Frank fighting inbred hillbillies.

And of course out of the other stuff I've read by Ennis and enjoyed, there was his short run on Midnighter, and his work on Hellblazer (which I've only read some of so I can't talk about at greater length).


I admit, there's stuff Ennis writes that I wouldn't been keen on as far as the edgy stuff goes...but well, he does it better than most people who try to do edgy stuff nowadays *cough* Millar *cough*.

That's because even when it's not his focus, even when he gets carried away with the the gore, the gortesqueries, the absurdity, the childishness...he's still incapable of writing wooden, unsympathetic, or uncompelling characters. He's the ultimate writer of the blue collar worker mentality; his characters are heartfelt, thoughtful, complex even when simple...loyalty is a common theme of his work, and friendship.

What I'm saying is there is no better character writer in comics. I love Morrison, I love Moore, I love Milligan and Aaron and Gillen. And all of them are dealing with more complex issues, more complex stuff, and they all do beautiful character work -- in the case of Morrison, I think he doesn't get enough credit for his character focus -- but no one does it as consistently and unflinchingly well as Ennis.

[InformationGeek]

Yeah I don't deny the character work there, and I actually thought the concept behind Boys was awesome. But for me the "bathroom humor" sort of becomes a barrier at a certain point. I forgot about Punisher Max. I've only read a little of it, and should definitely read more.

I don't want to derail the thread, so I'll just add this last bit about Ennis: Has anyone read his Shadow? I think it's one of the less interesting things he's done.

I will say though, I am completely cool with Ennis's irreverent attitude on superheroes.

Besides my dislike of his characters and uninterest in his stories, these are also two big reasons why I can't stand his work. I really don't care for his attitude (Since it resulted in The Boys, it only strengthen my opinion) and I extremely hate his humor, it intefers with the story I find.

[T Hedge Coke]

Ennis is only really ugly with superheroes when they're original creations, though. He's downright respectful in Punisher and in Hitman of many many of the long underwear union.

And, since the bulk of his work features absolutely no superheroes, it's not like, outside The Boys, it even comes up much.

The Boys lost me early on, for a lot of reasons, but I've found his current Fury series, his Shadow, and other things greatly enjoyable during the past few years.

[cactusmaac]

The Shadow felt pretty WFH - like he did it so Dynamite would let him get on with his original creations. Fury MAX by contrast feels much more like he's investing some real passion and interest into it.

If I have a criticism of Ennis it's that his war stories occasionally feel overly familiar - he loves stories of salt-of-the-Earth Tommies being screwed over by distant, incompetent officers from higher social strata and the cruel vagaries of war.

[Desaad]

Ennis is only really ugly with superheroes when they're original creations, though. He's downright respectful in Punisher and in Hitman of many many of the long underwear union.

And, since the bulk of his work features absolutely no superheroes, it's not like, outside The Boys, it even comes up much.

The Boys lost me early on, for a lot of reasons, but I've found his current Fury series, his Shadow, and other things greatly enjoyable during the past few years.

Hah, no, he's quite disrespectful of established heroes, as far as he's allowed to be. Beyond having Hitman throw up on an absurdly serious Batman, or the general buffoonery of the thong and tight types in Punisher, he essentially had Bueno Excellente drug and anally rape Kyle Rayner.

He had a lot of time for Superman, but Superman was a very special case as McCrea himself said in one interview. His takes on Wonder Woman, Batman, Flash, and Kyle Rayner painted them all as either ineffectual buffoons or undeservedly serious psychopaths.

Which I'm fine with, because Ennis is that damn good, but still.

[Desaad]

The Shadow felt pretty WFH - like he did it so Dynamite would let him get on with his original creations. Fury MAX by contrast feels much more like he's investing some real passion and interest into it.

If I have a criticism of Ennis it's that his war stories occasionally feel overly familiar - he loves stories of salt-of-the-Earth Tommies being screwed over by distant, incompetent officers from higher social strata and the cruel vagaries of war.

I'd say thats the general friction in nearly all his work, that class struggle - even the Boys plays with that power dynamic, just with super heroes as the bourgeois and/or the aristocracy.

But it's still done with such heart, and with such distinct characters, with such beauty and craft...well, I haven't gotten tired of it. His Battlefields has been a real highlight of his work, I think, stripped as it is completely of that churlish humor that looms so large over his other work.

[T Hedge Coke]

Hah, no, he's quite disrespectful of established heroes, as far as he's allowed to be. Beyond having Hitman throw up on an absurdly serious Batman, or the general buffoonery of the thong and tight types in Punisher, he essentially had Bueno Excellente drug and anally rape Kyle Rayner.

He had a lot of time for Superman, but Superman was a very special case as McCrea himself said in one interview. His takes on Wonder Woman, Batman, Flash, and Kyle Rayner painted them all as either ineffectual buffoons or undeservedly serious psychopaths.

Which I'm fine with, because Ennis is that damn good, but still.

His Spider-Man is pretty much the only Peter Parker I don't half-hate. His Daredevil was seen by Frank as misguided, but he's a decent guy. GL's big screw up was not carrying money, he was still a decent guy, a good man, and Tommy treats him as such, even if he takes the piss out of him a little.

Batman needs to get fucked with, just for going around being Batman all the time. And Tommy only does stuff like puke on him or call him Lord Vader because Tommy's scared shitless of him and knows flat out it's not like he could take him in a fight.

I don't remember any of the JLA in Hitman/JLA being particularly buffoonish, though, yeah, they're played for comedy as much as anyone else. But it's kind of a funny comic. Everyone got played for comedy. I certainly don't remember psychopathic Wonder Woman or Green Lantern.

Even way back in Punisher Kills the Marvel Universe, Cap gets treated decently, even if he's on the wrong side of the narrative. Cyclops is a dick, but Cyclops is always a dick, and superheroes do have a tendency to defend their own and not worry about collateral damage.

[cactusmaac]

I re-read JLA\Hitman a short while ago. GL Kyle was treated with some sympathy as the noob who was trying his best who Batman and Flash kept riding hard. Wonder Woman was treated as a somewhat aloof aristocrat who thought of herself as a warrior. This may have been done more to contrast her with Superman though.

Batman was a mix. He was portrayed as being smart, capable, a good thinker in a crisis and commanding but also overly dickish and domineering.

The admiration for Superman shone through - he was a highly decent, self-effacing nice guy who treated everyone with respect, pretty much the opposite of Batman.

[Johnny P. Sartre]

Besides my dislike of his characters and uninterest in his stories, these are also two big reasons why I can't stand his work. I really don't care for his attitude (Since it resulted in The Boys, it only strengthen my opinion) and I extremely hate his humor, it intefers with the story I find.

Yeah, let's ignore his war stories and other very down to earth and humanizing stories he's written.

Come on! You picking one aspect of a bigger thing here. When Ennis is on his A game, he can create some of the greatest and most relatable characters ever.

Even when he's going gritty, his character studies are top fucking notch.

[Johnny P. Sartre]

On on the topic....

I LOVE DP! It's definitely on my top ten favorite comic runs

Sorry Desaad, the only comics I could ever masturbate are Corto Maltese and Metabarons.

EDIT: and anything by Moebius