The Avengers DO KILL (in certain situations)

[SayOcean]

The Logic I am curious about here My Friend, SayOcean is the Possession Argue.

With the CC Recon it was Proven that she was Under the Possession of a Phoenix Level Entity, "The Life Force". But unlike the P5 who go 20% of that power at the beginning of their run (with lead to most X-men believing that they had the power under control, but that is a different argument), Wanda Got 100% of that power at once. By Past Standers, when that has happen to others like Jean Grey, the Entity was blamed, not Jean. Yet, with Wanda it is the complete reversal, where the victim being blamed is the bad one and the Entity has not part in it??

For any hero or character in any story I hold the same standard:

When you are completely, 100% possessed by an Invading Force of unbelievable power and control, one Blames the Entity, not the one being possessed.

The Anger should be at that "The Life Force", not Wanda. Just like the Anger was at the Phoenix for destroying that Solar System and its 5 Billion inhabitants. The same argument could be given to Summer in AvX #12, when he had 100% of the Phoenix, I would say he would have no control over his actions (but what happen before that 100% is debatable, but that is another discussion).

I'm not mad at a fictional character....her fans on the otherhand

[CJStriker]

I'm not mad at a fictional character....her fans on the otherhand

Well that's a different take on the subject SayOcean.

You, other posters, my friends all have the right to say what they believe and the other has the right to debt it back. That is what these forums are all about. But with what I care about more, Far more then the Argument by a great extent, is my #1 Favorite Wanda, Scarlet Witch.

Where I think any anger, at most things in Comics should be focused on is the Writers and head management. That they make "Decisions" with Characters the are out of character, Non-Canon, & disrespectful to their history & to the fans. That does not make them bad, just sloppy. I expect the same opinion for any poster towards their Favorite character and/or Book.

So when I talk my friend about Wanda or any other character, it is to either celebrate, promote or defend them. But in defending them to do the best and most respectful job I can towards the Character and the other posters. All posters have the right to post the way they want to, and allot of them do a good job at the way they like to post. My way is no better or less.

But what I still care about the most in all these forums is promoting, talking and defending my Favorite Character's and Books. Wanda, Scarlet Witch is at the TOP of that list.

[Cypher-Z]

Hmm... So this is what goes on in Marvel Comics... interesting.

[SayOcean]

Hmm... So this is what goes on in Marvel Comics... interesting.

Yes quite different than the bore fest at D.C.

Right?

[Jota]

Let me guess- the Avengers "forced" Namor to hit Wakanda with a tidal wave.

Amazing that a group so powerful couldn't handle the problem without the massive loss of innocent lives.

No, what the Avengers did was provoking a bunch of really powerfull people, before they did anything that warranted being attacked and then, holled up in a densely populated are.
Because, when dealing with people who are good but have the potencial of loosing control, what Captain America likes to do is attack them first, to make sure that they loose control and then use civilians as meatshields. What a hero!

Also, one question:
Why is it that the only member of the Phoenix Five who caused a ton of deaths is the only one who got of with no consequences and is now part of an Avengers team? Oh yeah, he was an avenger before! They can get away with murder. Literaly!

[Jota]

The Logic I am curious about here My Friend, SayOcean is the Possession Argue.

With the CC Recon it was Proven that she was Under the Possession of a Phoenix Level Entity, "The Life Force". But unlike the P5 who go 20% of that power at the beginning of their run (with lead to most X-men believing that they had the power under control, but that is a different argument), Wanda Got 100% of that power at once. By Past Standers, when that has happen to others like Jean Grey, the Entity was blamed, not Jean. Yet, with Wanda it is the complete reversal, where the victim being blamed is the bad one and the Entity has not part in it??

For any hero or character in any story I hold the same standard:

When you are completely, 100% possessed by an Invading Force of unbelievable power and control, one Blames the Entity, not the one being possessed.

The Anger should be at that "The Life Force", not Wanda. Just like the Anger was at the Phoenix for destroying that Solar System and its 5 Billion inhabitants. The same argument could be given to Summer in AvX #12, when he had 100% of the Phoenix, I would say he would have no control over his actions (but what happen before that 100% is debatable, but that is another discussion).

None of the Phoenix Five wanted the Phoenix Force. They got posessed by it because of the Avengers actions. Wanda wanted the Life Force and she wanted it for purely self-serving reasons. She's much more responsible for her actions then they are and she got away with no punishment.

[infernohara]

No, what the Avengers did was provoking a bunch of really powerfull people, before they did anything that warranted being attacked and then, holled up in a densely populated are.
Because, when dealing with people who are good but have the potencial of loosing control, what Captain America likes to do is attack them first, to make sure that they loose control and then use civilians as meatshields. What a hero!

Also, one question:
Why is it that the only member of the Phoenix Five who caused a ton of deaths is the only one who got of with no consequences and is now part of an Avengers team? Oh yeah, he was an avenger before! They can get away with murder. Literaly!

None of the Phoenix Five wanted the Phoenix Force. They got posessed by it because of the Avengers actions. Wanda wanted the Life Force and she wanted it for purely self-serving reasons. She's much more responsible for her actions then they are and she got away with no punishment.

You almost can't be taken seriously here. Is it really your first rodeo here that you would actually think any hero (no matter how good their intentions are) with tremendous power wouldn't be opposed by other heroes weaker than they? I'd be amazed if you actually thought having the phoenix five LONGTERM would be a good thing.

What form of punishment would you want for Wanda anyway? A jail sentence where she'd just get out in 10 years or so? How about death? Exactly what are you wanting here? I would think having your older sister burned alive is good punishment or maybe having a terrorist of a father who made you dance provacatively in front of the world's alleged first mutant punishment. Or maybe the ability to have no control over your power really with very unpredicatble outcomes some good....some bad. Or maybe to have children with your lover only for those children to be destroyed along with the babysitter (Don't tell mom!) and have your supposed besty troll that in your face with a laugh. Then decide to give people what they're hearts desire only for them to go against you and kill someone in the process you hold dear. Then to just rid the world of possibly being hated and feared at all only for it to backfire with death. Then to get raped by a dear friend and used by a great enemy. When finally trying to redeem thyself you get with actual actions its not enough since people want blood. Shes willing to give blood, but even thats not enough because it needs to marinate a bit more with what you've done to the point where the power has now come into possession of a great enemy. (To be continued?....NOT!) Then get shunned by former lover and do some superheroics on your own, yet still trying to redeem thyself by helping the one mutant girl who needed direction just let go of tremendous power.

I think Wanda has suffered her whole life.

[pharoahe22]

No, what the Avengers did was provoking a bunch of really powerfull people, before they did anything that warranted being attacked and then, holled up in a densely populated are.
Because, when dealing with people who are good but have the potencial of loosing control, what Captain America likes to do is attack them first, to make sure that they loose control and then use civilians as meatshields. What a hero!

Also, one question:
Why is it that the only member of the Phoenix Five who caused a ton of deaths is the only one who got of with no consequences and is now part of an Avengers team? Oh yeah, he was an avenger before! They can get away with murder. Literaly!

LOLLLL seriously Jota? Did you miss the part where Captain America said "Let's work together" and "Let's get Hope off of the planet in case something bad happens" like a rational human being...and Scott said "get the hell off of my island" and blasted him away? Yes...the Avengers totally provoked them, and the X-Men weren't acting like fanatics at all.

And as for your other point, we have no idea what happens to Namor with regards to punishment yet. IMHO that should be the Black Panther's call...and if he decides to put that aside for the greater good, then I have no problem with that.

[Mikey Brown]

Agreed.

I think you also point out a lot of killings of people who aren't active Avengers at the time and I do think that matters. When you're an Avenger, you don't kill.

I think also back in the day, there was a lot more concern about showing heroes killing -- other than his WWII days, Cap didn't just kill whenever it was convenient, like he does now -- it was a HUGE deal when he killed someone. Heck, it was a big deal when USAgent killed. Slott's argued, in book, that Hulk has never killed (blanking now whether it's never killed or never killed an innocent), something I expect most Marvel writers wouldn't care less about.

Back, pre-Bendis, Clint faced court-martial for ACCIDENTALLY killing Egghead. He was cleared, but it wasn't just "oh, you killed someone. Whatevs." Heck, YJ faced court-martial for attacking an opponent who had surrendered, even though he didn't kill her. Warbird faced a court-martial for killing the Master during a war.

You mentioned Herc killed, but I don't remember him killing people since he became a super-hero (as opposed to his mythological exploits). In his book, it was clear that even the people he turned to stone reverted back to flesh after a short time (as I remember being very concerned with his seeming casual attitude toward death in that title until they made it clear he wasn't killing). Wanda may have killed, but it was while she was being controlled/corrupted by the Life Force, not a conscious choice she made and continues to make.

Finally, you mention the Supreme Intelligence and that pretty much proves my point. The team split over killing an artificial intelligence. Now they simply shrug and look away and to me that's not Earth's Mightiest Heroes.

No, this doesn't prove your point. In House of M there was a giant discussion about killing Wanda. Pages of discussion. No place have they simply looked away. Most of the killing that happened was during war whether it was the Secret Invasion or the attack on America in Fear Itself. They are not simply "shrugging and looking away".

[Mikey Brown]

Notice that most if not all the examples are from recent times.
And that the point..... NOW everyone kills left and right, it's not a problem.

"Hey, lets take everything out of context to try and prove a point!"

[gregyo]

LOLLLL seriously Jota? Did you miss the part where Captain America said "Let's work together" and "Let's get Hope off of the planet in case something bad happens" like a rational human being...and Scott said "get the hell off of my island" and blasted him away? Yes...the Avengers totally provoked them, and the X-Men weren't acting like fanatics at all.

And as for your other point, we have no idea what happens to Namor with regards to punishment yet. IMHO that should be the Black Panther's call...and if he decides to put that aside for the greater good, then I have no problem with that.

Lol. Scott didn't shoot Cap because Cap was trying to help. Scott shot him because Cap started making stupid threats.

It was one of the best moments of the event.

[Mikey Brown]

Well in both CC and AVX actually Wolverine was written OOC. The writers actually messed up with Logan for making him fit to the story they would like to tell.

It was for the fate of the world. And even when Wolverine actually went after Hope, he quickly had a change of heart. Not really OOC.

[gregyo]

It was for the fate of the world. And even when Wolverine actually went after Hope, he quickly had a change of heart. Not really OOC.

It wasn't OOC at all. Logan's a murderer, tried and true.

[Mikey Brown]

I'm going to say i am 1 100% sure that when he said the word 'hero' he was talking about the comic book variety alone.

So comics can't reflect the real world........people in comic books who kill are not heroes. Gotcha.











(Isn't reflecting real world situations what Marvel is kind of known for?)

[GreenComixEnvy]

It wasn't OOC at all. Logan's a murderer, tried and true.

yeah of course he is...along with Scott Summers.