The Avengers DO KILL (in certain situations)

[Jota]

Cause it is too easy and way to much fun to Hate on a Character then to find a reason to like them again it seems. I do not know if it is the X-Fans all, but some fans just like to stick to the same line, day after day and ignore the Facts that I said in this Thread back on #2:

Indeed, many want to ignore the full Possession part of the CC story line that happen to Wanda, like that recon never Happen. I do not really care about opinions on other X-Characters, interesting takes though, but all I care out is that people get the FACTS on what happen to Wanda.

Questions about Scarlet Witch's power in Children's Crusade & AvX:
http://www.comicvine.com/myvine/owie...-avx/87-83185/


"Will We Finally Get Our Scarlet Witch Back?
The Scarlet Witch has returned in Avengers: The Children's Crusade #5. Dare we hope that she might finally be rehabilitated from her catastrophic character assassination?"
http://www.craveonline.com/comics/re...rens-crusade-5

Oh you want facts? Here are some facts:
1)Wanda decided to mess with a force she didn't understand and couldn't control and she ended up killing people, condemning an entire species to extinction and almost destroying the world, all for her selfish needs. Not for her children. They don't exist. For her!
Because screw everybody else and the very real possibility of them dying because she decided to eviscerate reality! All that matters is that Wanda wants children and she's too freaking dim to go to a sperm bank! Ladies and gentleman, our heroine! Isn't she just a great person?
2)After decimating mutants, because she was "crazy", she makes the very uncrazy decision of disapearing without a trace, escaping any retribution she could have had for her actions. Yeah, she really looked like she didn't knew what she was doing!
3)The Life Force didn't make her crazy. The bitch married a vibrator and was convinced she had kids with it! She's insane! She makes Charlie Sheen look like a picture of mental health. She shouldn't be in a superhero team. She should be in a padded room, with a straightjacket!
Yeah, Oeming did a bang-up job, in that moronic atempt of withewashing Wanda's actions!

[StrongGuy]

Because I still have read plenty of stuff with Wolverine in it. I read early Astonishing X-Men, various crossovers (that Messiah Complex story in the xbooks), etc. etc. I don't buy a lot of it, so I can't go back and look at exact specifics, whether he killed someone, simply tried and failed to kill someone, etc. etc. (for example, was he killing SHIELD agents/skrulls in the first storyline in New Avengers? I don't recall). And whether you want to say his attempts to murder Wanda and Hope were out of character, they're still canon. He still runs a death squad. All that, IMO, makes him not Avengers material.

Says the dude always crying for characters to be "fixed".

[Jota]

"Some" being the operative word.

You can think Wolverine isn't an X-Men all you want. Doesn't make it true. Or rational. Or reasonable. Or realistic.

Yes, because it's so reasonable to say that a guy who betrayed the X-Men several times and considers them a complete failure, is an x-man. They should just give Bastion a membership.

[darkclaw11]

Yes, because it's so reasonable to say that a guy who betrayed the X-Men several times and considers them a complete failure, is an x-man. They should just give Bastion a membership.

Logan was called the "conscience of the X-men" for a reason. He is the person that he called them out for their failures or when they went out of rails. Criticism is needed in any team. It's not good when everyone in a team following orders without questioning them. As for Bastion membership, well the X-men actually permitted at the 90% of the X-villains to join their ranks so it will not surprise me if it happens.

[Luck911]

The scenes of him attacking Wanda and Hope are not true to his character now. They are just easy ways to create a controversy by the writers.

Actually scenes of him attacking Wanda and Hope is his true character,When Wolverine attack Wanda and Hope they where as big threats to world as Sentry and Hulk are, Writers have write Wolverine a little smarter but his attacking of Hope and Wanda make sense in the big picture

All that, IMO, makes him not Avengers material.

Ok Wolverine is not Avengers material,I have question to ask is Iron man avengers material? Is Thor and Scarlet Witch Avengers material?

[darkclaw11]

Actually scenes of him attacking Wanda and Hope is his true character,When Wolverine attack Wanda and Hope they where as big threats to world as Sentry and Hulk are, Writers have write Wolverine a little smarter but his attacking of Hope and Wanda make sense in the big picture



Ok Wolverine is not Avengers material,I have question to ask is Iron man avengers material? Is Thor and Scarlet Witch Avengers material?

Well in both CC and AVX actually Wolverine was written OOC. The writers actually messed up with Logan for making him fit to the story they would like to tell.

[tony ingram]

Agreed.

I think you also point out a lot of killings of people who aren't active Avengers at the time and I do think that matters. When you're an Avenger, you don't kill.

I think also back in the day, there was a lot more concern about showing heroes killing -- other than his WWII days, Cap didn't just kill whenever it was convenient, like he does now -- it was a HUGE deal when he killed someone. Heck, it was a big deal when USAgent killed. Slott's argued, in book, that Hulk has never killed (blanking now whether it's never killed or never killed an innocent), something I expect most Marvel writers wouldn't care less about.

Back, pre-Bendis, Clint faced court-martial for ACCIDENTALLY killing Egghead. He was cleared, but it wasn't just "oh, you killed someone. Whatevs." Heck, YJ faced court-martial for attacking an opponent who had surrendered, even though he didn't kill her. Warbird faced a court-martial for killing the Master during a war.

You mentioned Herc killed, but I don't remember him killing people since he became a super-hero (as opposed to his mythological exploits). In his book, it was clear that even the people he turned to stone reverted back to flesh after a short time (as I remember being very concerned with his seeming casual attitude toward death in that title until they made it clear he wasn't killing). Wanda may have killed, but it was while she was being controlled/corrupted by the Life Force, not a conscious choice she made and continues to make.

Finally, you mention the Supreme Intelligence and that pretty much proves my point. The team split over killing an artificial intelligence. Now they simply shrug and look away and to me that's not Earth's Mightiest Heroes.

I agree. I miss the days when you could tell the heroes from the villains.

[direction9]

I agree. I miss the days when you could tell the heroes from the villains.

no one has ever had a hard time making that distinction, including you, unless you're reading punisher.
don't be obtuse/hyperbolic

[Luck911]

I agree. I miss the days when you could tell the heroes from the villains.

I am sorry in you guys eyes heroes don't kill,but i have been around to many soldiers,marines and Police men to be that naive.I have seen to many stuff in real life to have that opinion.I understand want you guys want to see but i find it disrespectful to real life hero to claim that ultimate stance on heroism is no killing period.Current Avengers in attitude towards killing reflect how real heroes respond to enemies,I understand you guys want to heroic moral fantasy.

Cringe every time i hear somebody is a lesser hero or not worth of being in a group because they kill,When a police man who shoots a bank robber is declared hero in real life, Solider who fights off Taliban attack and kills enemy defending himself is called a hero.The stance of no killing period is the most unrealistic thing ever plain and simple,If you are in conflict against equal level enemy capable of killing you then killing becomes the number option for defense,Anybody who had Superman or Spiderman mentality in combat heavy position would get themselves or friends killed very quickly.

[Sighphi]

I am sorry in you guys eyes heroes don't kill,but i have been around to many soldiers,marines and Police men to be that naive.I have seen to many stuff in real life to have that opinion.I understand want you guys want to see but i find it disrespectful to real life hero to claim that ultimate stance on heroism is no killing period.Current Avengers in attitude towards killing reflect how real heroes respond to enemies,I understand you guys want to heroic moral fantasy.

Cringe every time i hear somebody is a lesser hero or not worth of being in a group because they kill,When a police man who shoots a bank robber is declared hero in real life, Solider who fights off Taliban attack and kills enemy defending himself is called a hero.The stance of no killing period is the most unrealistic thing ever plain and simple,If you are in conflict against equal level enemy capable of killing you then killing becomes the number option for defense,Anybody who had Superman or Spiderman mentality in combat heavy position would get themselves or friends killed very quickly.

I'm going to say i am 1 100% sure that when he said the word 'hero' he was talking about the comic book variety alone.

[motteditor]

The bitch married a vibrator

Yeah, you obviously entirely miss the point of Vision, much less Vision and Wanda's relationship.

Says the dude always crying for characters to be "fixed".

I'm not sure where those comments don't gibe; in fact, I'd say they do. I say Wanda needs to be fixed because some moron wrote her as a psychotic villainess with the power to reshape reality. That bit of Bendis idiocy needs to be undone, and happily Marvel has started to do so, with the Life Force retcon.

Now if you don't think Wolverine is someone who would try to kill Wanda and Hope, you should be calling for him to be fixed too. I'd say that's perfectly within character for him, which is further justified by no one trying to undo that bit of story telling (as opposed to Wanda where the very first writer to use her after Bendis had as the point of that very first story undoing the incredible damage Bendis did to the character).

Ok Wolverine is not Avengers material,I have question to ask is Iron man avengers material? Is Thor and Scarlet Witch Avengers material?

Well, Iron Man and Thor kind of founded the Avengers and Wanda was in the second group of members. Now, I think you could easily argue for a story where the rest of the Avengers told Tony to get lost considering the crap Marvel's had him doing over the last decade, sure. Considering -- per canon -- Wanda didn't consciously kill anyone, then I'm not sure why she wouldn't be Avengers material (why she'd want to be on the team after how they've treated her is beyond me, but there's nothing on her end that shouldn't let her be part of the team). I don't follow Thor closely enough to know of any reason he shouldn't be considered Avengers material.

I'm going to say i am 1 100% sure that when he said the word 'hero' he was talking about the comic book variety alone.

Yeah. I'm pretty sure none of our real-life law enforcement/military have super powers that would let them deal with the threats they face without being able to avoid the possibility of death.

[Hi-Fi]

Captain America got mad at Sersi just because she threatened some people during Operation: Galactic Storm. He's such an hypocrite.

[CJStriker]

1)Wanda decided to mess with a force she didn't understand and couldn't control and she ended up killing people, condemning an entire species to extinction and almost destroying the world, all for her selfish needs. Not for her children. They don't exist. For her!
Because screw everybody else and the very real possibility of them dying because she decided to eviscerate reality! Ladies and gentleman, our heroine!

Yea, it is like Reed Richards never went to Dr. Doom, or that the X-men have never had an open door to Magneto or that Emma Frost was not a part of the X-men. All heroes go to their eneimies, and in that case I still find it fishy that that just happen, but that is my Opionion. But none of what they did was indeed to go the way it did, that is the difference, it was an accident. Theirs a diffecence between evil intent and accidental action. Also, how could she trust her friends, they lied to her about her children (once again in a Non-Canon Bendis story), she could not trust them.

She in Children's Crusades however never ran Away, when she got her memory back, she took Responsibly and was ready to face the Kangroo Court of the X-men, but in the end King Summers The 1st decided to let her go. This after the X-men did the "Heroic" move of stopping her from giving all the powers back to mutants, instead wanting to put her on a Fixed Trial, but then when she lost her power to help them, just said, yea you can go.

2)She makes the very uncrazy decision of disapearing without a trace, escaping any retribution she could have had for her actions. Yeah, she really looked like she didn't knew what she was doing!

Yea, in Bendis Genius after the 3 words she says, she is all the sudden just ends up in her homeland and has no memory. That is never explain by Bendis and all one can do is guess at why that even happen. So to say she is running is you opinion, not Fact.

3)The ***** married * ********

3.) The relationship between Wanda and Vision is one of the most long lasting and celebrated relationships in Marvel history. I am still learning more about it, but what I learn I like and to put it in such plain and vaguer terms says more about what you do not know. You may want to read up on it as well, you may find you like it as well, if you give the story a Chance.

Yeah, Oeming did a bang-up job, in that moronic atempt of withewashing Wanda's actions!

But this is my point here friend, you take this with such anger, their is no need for that. This is a comic, blame the Writers like I do. I all I wanted to say was end the hate, read what happen and hope for a better future for Wanda. The Recon's do the best they can to clean up the mess from other writers.

All I can say is Good Luck Friend and enjoy the X-men to your Hearts content, I will as well, along with the Avengers and Wanda.

[tigerkaya]

Oh you want facts? Here are some facts:
1)Wanda decided to mess with a force she didn't understand and couldn't control and she ended up killing people, condemning an entire species to extinction and almost destroying the world, all for her selfish needs. Not for her children. They don't exist. For her!
Because screw everybody else and the very real possibility of them dying because she decided to eviscerate reality! All that matters is that Wanda wants children and she's too freaking dim to go to a sperm bank! Ladies and gentleman, our heroine! Isn't she just a great person?
2)After decimating mutants, because she was "crazy", she makes the very uncrazy decision of disapearing without a trace, escaping any retribution she could have had for her actions. Yeah, she really looked like she didn't knew what she was doing!
3)The Life Force didn't make her crazy. The bitch married a vibrator and was convinced she had kids with it! She's insane! She makes Charlie Sheen look like a picture of mental health. She shouldn't be in a superhero team. She should be in a padded room, with a straightjacket!
Yeah, Oeming did a bang-up job, in that moronic atempt of withewashing Wanda's actions!

Once again X-Fan ignorance at its finest. Thank You for entertaining. Also enjoy Bendis on X-men may he bring the same equivalence of misery as he did to Avengers.

[RDMacQ]

Yes, because it's so reasonable to say that a guy who betrayed the X-Men several times and considers them a complete failure, is an x-man. They should just give Bastion a membership.

"Betrayed."

That's cute.