How Much Magic Damage would it take to kill Superman?

[zeroharpuia]

I know Supes is ridiculously durable, but I also know that he can be hurt and even killed. So this thread is about how much raw damage (or magic power) it takes to put him down for good. Does the amount decrease if Superman is in the presence Kryptonite, or does that just prevent him from fighting back as hard?

In the same vein, what would happen if a mage tried to polymorph Superman into Kryptonite?

[Surtur]

A lot I'd say. He's actually not that weak against magic, especially damage dealing magic like fireballs. For example let us say some random wizard can cast a magical fireball. I'd like to see that fireball hurt someone on/near Supes level durability before we say it could hurt him.

Kryptonite weakens him so yes he'd be easier to kill while in the presence of it. If a mage tried to transmute Supes into kryptonite then he can do nothing but take it. That is the thing, Superman isn't weak to magic..he is actually more resistant to it then any normal human and would fall prey to magic where durability doesn't come into play(transmutation, soul rips, things like that). He's even fought off mind control of a magical nature, but to be fair that was due to training from a high level telepath.

To get back to the transmutation thing though..there are certain settings where durability is a factor in if that works or not so in that case I have no idea what would happen, but personally I'd lean towards it working on him still more often then not.

[zeroharpuia]

A lot I'd say. He's actually not that weak against magic, especially damage dealing magic like fireballs. For example let us say some random wizard can cast a magical fireball. I'd like to see that fireball hurt someone on/near Supes level durability before we say it could hurt him.

Kryptonite weakens him so yes he'd be easier to kill while in the presence of it. If a mage tried to polymorph Supes into kryptonite then he can do nothing but take it. That is the thing, Superman isn't weak to magic..he is actually more resistant to it then any normal human and would fall prey to magic where durability doesn't come into play(transmutation, soul rips, things like that). He's even fought off mind control of a magical nature, but to be fair that was due to training from a high level telepath.

Well this answers half of the question, but now we must know the scale of the raw power needed to kill Superman.

[Surtur]

Well this answers half of the question, but now we must know the scale of the raw power needed to kill Superman.

Non-magical raw power? People who are on his strength level are capable of harming him, unlike pre crisis where the Kryptonians could seemingly punch each other in the face all day. Though it's not like he can outright ignore hits from anyone weaker then him. Wonder Woman isn't quite as strong and she can hurt him. I would think anything less then Class 80 strength wouldn't be enough.

If you mean raw magical power, well..like I said, for me I'd want them to have shown enough raw power to hurt beings at the very least near his durability level with their damaging spells. Another problem with magic is it can be inconsistent. Some writers have had it where a damage dealing magical attack might hurt him as much(or even more) then a normal human. This was especially true for his PC version(Dr. Fate could probably kill him by flicking a magical booger at him or something).

[The Transient Guest]

I would say around 1,000 points of magic damage should do it.

Of course that's after my first answer to the needed amount to kill, which is of course "lethal."


And wasn't the entire deal about his magic weakness that it wasn't something he was durable against?
IE: Shoot him with a gun, he takes no damage while a regular guy gets shot.
Shoot him with a spell, he takes the same amount of damage as a regular guy getting shot with the spell.

[zeroharpuia]

I would say around 1,000 points of magic damage should do it.

Of course that's after my first answer to the needed amount to kill, which is of course "lethal."


And wasn't the entire deal about his magic weakness that it wasn't something he was durable against?
IE: Shoot him with a gun, he takes no damage while a regular guy gets shot.
Shoot him with a spell, he takes the same amount of damage as a regular guy getting shot with the spell.

Thats the impression I was under. Superman is much more durable than the average human, however. So do you need the destructive force of blowing up a planet? Solar System? Galaxy?

[Surtur]

And wasn't the entire deal about his magic weakness that it wasn't something he was durable against?
IE: Shoot him with a gun, he takes no damage while a regular guy gets shot.
Shoot him with a spell, he takes the same amount of damage as a regular guy getting shot with the spell.

Well that's the problem, sometimes writers can't make up their mind about this. He's taken magical lightning with some damage(he's even been hit repeatedly), he's been hit with magical fire from Etrigan and didn't even get burned(but claimed he could feel the heat). Hell Etrigan even releases a cloud of magical poison and Supes inhales that shit up and then spews it out somewhere else so it doesn't hurt any innocents.

Thats the impression I was under. Superman is much more durable than the average human, however. So do you need the destructive force of blowing up a planet? Solar System? Galaxy?

I'd say it would take a lot of force. Thinking about it ok maybe not as much force as it would take for a non-magical attack since he can take nukes with no problem, but I have a hard time seeing him shrug off the magical equivalent of a nuke. So if I were out to kill him with direct damage dealing magic I'd drop a magical nuke on him or something at the very least just to be on the safe side.

Keep in mind this is all from post crisis pre new universe Supes. I have no idea if current Supes even has any type of magical vulnerability.

[HVulpes]

The damage is not important as much as Magic has the ability to go around his natural invulnerability combo allow him to be defenseless as a normal human would be to the attack.

Superman's Invulnerability is made of a combo of dense physiology from evolving in a high gravity environment of his ancestors as well as an energy field (which might be psionic) which also deflects/blocks Sciences-based Energy/Matter/Force attacks.

Magic basically treats this combo as non-existent.

Green Kryptonite and Red Sun Light is more based on his energy absorption abilities of his cells (Green Kryptonite blocks the solar cells while Red sun light reduce the energy absorbed by them).

My knowledge and opinion only.

[Surtur]

Well the energy field thing..I'm not even sure if that was still the case by the end of the post crisis pre new universe era. They really seemed to jump around with that.

[zeroharpuia]

This one's still up for discussion if anybody wants to dispute, but for now I'm going to use the working model of a Magical Nuke to kill Superman.

[Surtur]

This one's still up for discussion if anybody wants to dispute, but for now I'm going to use the working model of a Magical Nuke to kill Superman.

It might take less force, but..just for example, if you have a magical bomb that can wipe out a city block I don't see it doing much to him. At least going by his more high end showings against magic. I remember a comic where some magical dude throws a magical blast that hits the entire league and Supes is the only one who doesn't go down. I did find that to a bit ridiculous since Wonder Woman and Green Lantern were there and if WW is gong down from a blast Supes is definitely going down. Come to think of it that could be an Elseworlds tale though.

[Guy Smiley]

It depends on the Superman. Pre-Crisis Supes apparently folded like a wet noodle to magic. Didn't even have to be an attack spell, IIRC.

Post-Crisis has been blasted by all sorts of crap, and it hurts him more than it would if it were non-magical, but he's taken shots from magical stuff that should gib normal humans, so it's clearly not bypassing his defenses completely. I remember one occasion where he was fighting an Eclipso-possessed Captain Marvel, and not only did he get blasted by magic god-lightning to no real effect but Eclipso was incapable of taking Clark over. (IIRC, even if Supes got angry) He only succeeded by holding Cap hostage, at which point Supes let him take possession in exchange for releasing Marvel. So Supes' mental defenses are both pretty solid and not particularly weak to magic - I'd estimate he could laugh off stuff like D&D Charm spells, for instance.

NuSupes? No clue.

[dupersuper]

One issue with how Superman reacts to magic is that, while much of it may bypass his physical defenses, for a lot of magic will power and being true of heart count for something, as do symbols. In War of the Gods, when Black Adam recruits the Suicide Squad to attack Circes stronghold he advises any one who has a costume to wear it ("We're fighting magic: symbolic garb has power.", or words to that effect). If that's true for Captain Boomerangs costume, I'd say it works several orders of magnitude more for Supes. So, he may not be physically resistant to magic, but there are other factors in his favor.

[big_adventure]

I think that in general, it could be stated to work like this:

If you use magic to call lightning, it's just lightning, so resistance to that should protect him.

If you use magic to make a force blast - that's just kinetic energy, it's getting punched hard regardless of the origin, so durability should protect him.

If you use magic to make a cloud of poison, immunity to poisons will protect him.

If you make magical bindings (Crimson Bands, etc.) he's going to be bound more easily than another class 100.

If you use a soul rip, posession, et. al., well, here, his durability is weak, specifically.

that's how I read it.

[Sol M]

I think that in general, it could be stated to work like this:

If you use magic to call lightning, it's just lightning, so resistance to that should protect him.

If you use magic to make a force blast - that's just kinetic energy, it's getting punched hard regardless of the origin, so durability should protect him.

If you use magic to make a cloud of poison, immunity to poisons will protect him.

If you make magical bindings (Crimson Bands, etc.) he's going to be bound more easily than another class 100.

If you use a soul rip, posession, et. al., well, here, his durability is weak, specifically.

that's how I read it.

But how is that any different from some random class 100 brick with no specifically noted weakness to magic? They'd still resist normal damage dealing spells and still be vulnerable to something as esoteric as soul rip.

The only difference would be the Crimson Bands of Cyttorak.