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  1. #196
    Marked for Redemption David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adkal View Post
    The early Christians were also expecting his imminent return, which was retconned as time passed by.
    This I don't argue. Clearly, the early Christians believed Christ would return in their immediate lifetime.

    But their misunderstanding isn't really detrimental to my understanding of Christianity. Every generation thinks they're the one for some reason or another, but Jesus pointed out that the day and the hour belonged to God alone.

    Further, Jesus conducted an act of violence in the Temple itself...
    Again, context. Jesus chased the sellers out with a whip and overturned their tables, which isn't the equivalent of pulling a sword and saying, "Rome's days are over!"
    "I came to the conclusion that the optimist thought everything good except the pessimist, and the pessimist thought everything bad, except himself." -- G.K. Chesterton

  2. #197
    Senior Member adkal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    This I don't argue. Clearly, the early Christians believed Christ would return in their immediate lifetime.

    But their misunderstanding isn't really detrimental to my understanding of Christianity. Every generation thinks they're the one for some reason or another, but Jesus pointed out that the day and the hour belonged to God alone.
    Which shows he isn't God since he wasn't privy to such knowledge

    Again, context. Jesus chased the sellers out with a whip and overturned their tables, which isn't the equivalent of pulling a sword and saying, "Rome's days are over!"
    Ah, all my intent with that reference was to show he committed a violent act - I made no suggestion, with that reference, that he did an act of 'extreme' violence.

  3. #198
    Senior Member FIFTY-TWO (52)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dshipp17 View Post
    because of His works, we can accept Jesus was God incarnate, because we also have Old Testament accounts of God not granting miracles to support the words of someone not truly acting in His name; God actually said that He would be the enzyme for peoples' works who are truly acting in His name or that He would refuse to act if they were not acting in His name; thus, if Jesus was essentially blaspheming, He wouldn't have gotten away with just one act, as Jesus would have been untruthful in claiming to be the Son of God; and God Himself is by far the best lie detector.
    More of this half-baked (literally) notion of Jesus being God. He never said he was God. Others may have written such things, but Jesus doesn't ever call himself God.
    Again, the deification of Christ came to us via the Catholic Church, and they've used this dogma to thread even more nonsense into a faith whose beliefs are based mostly on what I'd assume are drug-induced fever dreams , i.e. Mary being the "mother of God". It's ridiculous and should be called out for the fairy tale BS that it is.
    "A man can be happy with any woman as long as he does not love her."

    Oscar Wilde

  4. #199
    Senior Member FIFTY-TWO (52)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dshipp17 View Post
    before I came to be at this mortal realm through the birth process, I'd already had a certain relationship with God the Father, so, coupled with my memory, certain experiences simply reminded me of who/what I really was previously;
    Say wha?!
    Okay, I think I may have had enough.
    "A man can be happy with any woman as long as he does not love her."

    Oscar Wilde

  5. #200
    Marked for Redemption David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adkal View Post
    Which shows he isn't God since he wasn't privy to such knowledge
    Christians hold to the Paradox that Jesus Christ is fully human and divine.

    The nature of that experience is a Mystery that involves Christ's voluntary submission to human limitations.

    Quote Originally Posted by FIFTY-TWO (52) View Post
    More of this half-baked (literally) notion of Jesus being God.He never said he was God. Others may have written such things, but Jesus doesn't ever call himself God.
    Hard to say with any certainty if you weren't there, isn't it? There's a variety of explanations you'd need to be open to...unless you're willing to step out on faith.


    Again, the deification of Christ came to us via the Catholic Church, and they've used this dogma to thread even more nonsense into a faith whose beliefs are based mostly on what I'd assume are drug-induced fever dreams , i.e. Mary being the "mother of God". It's ridiculous and should be called out for the fairy tale BS that it is.
    My first point is one I'd hope most of us can agree on: fairy tales aren't BS.

    As to Christian dogma being 'drug-induced fever dreams' you're right to say you'd assume, as you weren't there when they were being developed.

    Your argument seems emotionally driven. Not that there's anything wrong with that; unless of course you're challenging Christianity on the basis that it's an emotionally driven fever dream. Then it becomes something of a complication.
    "I came to the conclusion that the optimist thought everything good except the pessimist, and the pessimist thought everything bad, except himself." -- G.K. Chesterton

  6. #201
    Senior Member Ish Kabbible's Avatar
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    The 2 things in common between Jesus and Superman is they are both fictional and Jewish.

  7. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    Christians hold to the Paradox that Jesus Christ is fully human and divine.

    The nature of that experience is a Mystery that involves Christ's voluntary submission to human limitations.



    Hard to say with any certainty if you weren't there, isn't it? There's a variety of explanations you'd need to be open to...unless you're willing to step out on faith.




    My first point is one I'd hope most of us can agree on: fairy tales aren't BS.

    As to Christian dogma being 'drug-induced fever dreams' you're right to say you'd assume, as you weren't there when they were being developed.

    Your argument seems emotionally driven. Not that there's anything wrong with that; unless of course you're challenging Christianity on the basis that it's an emotionally driven fever dream. Then it becomes something of a complication.
    Very good post; clearly, his posts do appear to be emotionally driven. SLVN, on the other hand, offers logical, neutral rebuttals, but premised on dismissing eyewitness testimony as evidence.

  8. #203
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    before I came to be at this mortal realm through the birth process, I'd already had a certain relationship with God the Father, so, coupled with my memory, certain experiences simply reminded me of who/what I really was previously;
    Whoa, really? Me too! In fact we went to see Field of Dreams together once. Even God the Father loves a good ole Kevin Costner flick.

  9. #204
    Senior Member FIFTY-TWO (52)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    Christians hold to the Paradox that Jesus Christ is fully human and divine.
    The early Christians didn't. Even in his letters, Paul insists that Christ was born as every other man is born and must submit himself unto God.

    The nature of that experience is a Mystery that involves Christ's voluntary submission to human limitations.
    Actually it's BS made up by the Catholic Church. Jesus never said he was God. And he never said his mother, Mary, was the mother of God. The Catholic Church wove that tale.


    Hard to say with any certainty if you weren't there, isn't it?
    Really? Why do you believe in any of it if you weren't there?
    At no point in the Bible did Jesus say he was God. He wasn't that crazy.

    There's a variety of explanations you'd need to be open to...unless you're willing to step out on faith.
    No, there's a certain historicity to the proclamation of Christ as God, and it didn't start with the early Christians, but with Catholic and Eastern Orthodox clergy hundreds of years after Christ's death.


    My first point is one I'd hope most of us can agree on: fairy tales aren't BS.
    Depends on the fairy tale.

    As to Christian dogma being 'drug-induced fever dreams' you're right to say you'd assume, as you weren't there when they were being developed.
    Yep.

    Your argument seems emotionally driven. Not that there's anything wrong with that; unless of course you're challenging Christianity on the basis that it's an emotionally driven fever dream. Then it becomes something of a complication.
    Christianity isn't based on the premise that Jesus is God, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. The notion that a bunch of men in councils got together and fashioned the plot that would bring the Catholic Church to supreme dominance and bleed into mainstream Christianity is not "emotionally driven". It's fact. It was these men in councils that placed on Jesus those things Jesus, himself, never reached for: deification.
    "A man can be happy with any woman as long as he does not love her."

    Oscar Wilde

  10. #205
    Senior Member Deadman25's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ish Kabbible View Post
    The 2 things in common between Jesus and Superman is they are both fictional and Jewish.
    Kryptonians are Jewish ?


    also I think Jesus wins Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Deadman25; 11-19-2012 at 11:22 PM.

  11. #206
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    Yes, Kryptonians are basically sci-fi Jews.

  12. #207
    Elder Member dupersuper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surtur View Post
    Why does this need to be out there? Did someone start up a cult worshipping Superman or something?
    Yeah, Darkseid. Didn't you read Action Comics Weekly?

    Quote Originally Posted by dshipp17 View Post
    Jesus already accomplished what He set out to accomplished
    Much like Bush Sr. accomplished all his goals in 1 term.

    Quote Originally Posted by dshipp17 View Post
    Jesus will act again; His time to act again has yet to come again.
    The same is true of King Arthur.

    Quote Originally Posted by dshipp17 View Post
    Oh, it's true; I strongly believe that, with increasing vigor, as the days go by; thank you Jesus.
    Yes, we can all see your vigor. Do you ever talk about just comic books any more?

    Quote Originally Posted by jarvisjackrabbit View Post
    God does not operate according to the flawed sense of entitlement and holding of "fairness" as the paramount virtue that has warped the thinking of western society. It has become difficult for people to believe in the love of God and Jesus Christ because we think we should be able to make the rules. We have become unable to understand the meaning or worth of humility. God is omnipotent and therefore defines what is good, just, and evil, and I am thankful for that because I definitely am not able to rely on my own sensibilities to define them. Christ has conquered death for humanity, but you choose to refuse it because it is not on your terms? It is difficult and joyous to live as a Christian. It requires acting against base urges instead of celebrating them much of the time, but it is indescribably fulfilling to accept the love and grace of God instead of one's own desires.
    Yes yes, it's all our entitled western notion of not randomly killing countless innocent people because one offended you that prevents us from seeing how awesome God is and causes us to regard these stories as ridiculous.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    Hard to say with any certainty if you weren't there, isn't it?
    Could you point this out to dship please?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Holmes View Post
    Yes, Kryptonians are basically sci-fi Jews.
    Every one knows sci-fi Jews are from Druidia.
    Pull List; seems to be too long to fit in my sig...

  13. #208
    All Roads Lead To Hell 666MasterOfPuppets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dupersuper View Post

    The same is true of King Arthur.

    Could you point this out to dship please?
    This. Like I said before, the Bible is a book with little historical accuracy. When you compare the customs and lifestyle of the Jews back in those days you will see things in The bible that just don't add up (i.e., Mary being a "virgin" when Jesus was conceived). In that moment you start to think something's fishy. It's clear that whoever wrote the gospels modified and added things in order to adapt what happened to their views of "sanctity", or "holiness", or whatever you wanna call it. If God is all mercy, he wouldn't send his own son to sacrifice himself to Him in order to "forgive mankind's sins". That doesn't make any sense. Besides, he supposedly came back from the dead, so there's really no sacrifice, is there? The way I think of Jesus is as a wise man that tried to show people a "peaceful" way to live. And a man who lived his life, period. Then there's the whole Mary Magdalene issue. Is it really so hard to believe that he loved a woman and mated with her? Hell, recent findings say that God (the Creator) had a wife. And her mentions were misteriously wiped out from the books.
    ... The Master Of Puppets has spoken.

    Goodbye León (november 16th, 1993 - june 12th, 2009). You were, are and always will be the best friend I ever had. I will always love you and never forget you. And please, please forgive me.

    Thank you for teaching me about love, patience and caring. Rest in Peace, my friend. I hope that wherever it is you are now, you can run and play as much as you want.

  14. #209
    Crusader of Justice dancj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by direction9 View Post
    please don't try to use your common sense and logic to try to explain the motivations of a universal deity
    you might as well go on about the virtues of the banana
    Yeah, my bad.

    Case in point:
    Quote Originally Posted by jarvisjackrabbit View Post
    God does not operate according to the flawed sense of entitlement and holding of "fairness" as the paramount virtue that has warped the thinking of western society. It has become difficult for people to believe in the love of God and Jesus Christ because we think we should be able to make the rules. We have become unable to understand the meaning or worth of humility. God is omnipotent and therefore defines what is good, just, and evil, and I am thankful for that because I definitely am not able to rely on my own sensibilities to define them. Christ has conquered death for humanity, but you choose to refuse it because it is not on your terms? It is difficult and joyous to live as a Christian. It requires acting against base urges instead of celebrating them much of the time, but it is indescribably fulfilling to accept the love and grace of God instead of one's own desires.
    In other words "I refuse to listen to any kind of reason".

    Sorry - that doesn't cut it. No one - not even your god - can justify mass genocide as being acceptable.
    Last edited by dancj; 11-20-2012 at 05:16 AM.

  15. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by dshipp17 View Post
    SLVN, on the other hand, offers logical, neutral rebuttals,
    Thanks.

    but premised on dismissing eyewitness testimony as evidence.
    Sorry if I came off that way. No, I don't dismiss eyewitness testimony as evidence. I don't know how anyone could do history without it. I would agree, for example, that, very broadly speaking and all other things being equal, the more credible eyewitness accounts you have that a man named Jesus lived at a certain time and a certain place and said certain public words and performed certain public acts, the more evidentiary certainty you can have that this is accurate. (Without such testimony or other evidence, of course, you can still have the non-evidentiary certainty that faith provides.)

    However, I don't believe, generally speaking, that you can have eyewitness evidence of "things unseen"; a person's divinity would not, as far as I know, be directly observable, but would have to be inferred. Even if there is eyewitness testimony that Jesus came back from the dead, this doesn't necessarily prove that he was divine; Lazarus is supposed to have come back from the dead too, and he's not divine. How could an eyewitness "see" that Jesus resurrected himself whereas Lazarus was raised by a power outside himself?

    Secondarily, I'm not sure that we do have sufficient direct eyewitness accounts that Jesus came back from the dead. You speak of "thousands" of eyewitnesses, but as far as I'm aware we know of most of those, if at all, only indirectly, not in their own words. And though I know there is disagreement about this, it still seems that the bulk of scholarship suggests that the texts we have of the Gospels emerged significantly after Jesus was gone from this world. They may ultimately be based on eyewitness accounts, but we have those accounts only indirectly. If some Zoroastrian text tells me that there were thousands of eyewitnesses to the deeds of Mitra, I won't necessarily find that to be convincing evidence. (If thousands of individual contemporaneous eyewitness accounts are found, then THAT will be intriguing....)

    But to say that something has not been proven is not to say that it has been disproven. The resurrection and divinity of Jesus have not been disproven. And even if they were somehow "disproven" by evidence, you could still choose to believe in them as an act of faith.

    To return again to the topic--I'm not sure how much historicity matters to the importance of the figures who inspire and challenge us. If Superman were to gain the symbolic and cultural importance of Jesus, I don't think it would matter that everyone know that Superman didn't historically, literally exists. What matters is what he stands for. But, with all due respect to Superman--and I really am impressed with how quickly and deeply this character has become a modern myth--his importance as an icon isn't remotely comparable to that of Jesus.
    Last edited by slvn; 11-20-2012 at 06:03 AM.

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