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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by R0NIN View Post
    That's all based on a belief. Not proof. You and countless others BELIEVE he resurrected and BELIEVE he did many miracles.



    You're argument is even worse then? How many Gods were there before yours? Thousands. Yours is the newest version. At least Superman was the first of his "kind". Why your God and not Islam's or the Jew's or the countless others. They all have similiar characteristics, similiar to your bible. Many in fact share entire sections of your bible. Oops you defeated yourself with your own argument. Bye Bye now.
    Ok, either you clearly don't understand God very well or you're being deliberately obtuse; the Christian, Jewish, and Muslim God are intended to be one in the same; the only difference is the way the three groups' approach to seeing and interpreting God; Christianity views the introduction of Jesus as the fulfillment of Jewish prophecy, while the other Jewish sects available at the time, broke away from the Jewish sect that accepted Jesus as the Messiah; thus, the two groups divided into Christianity and Judaism. Islam came along about three hundred years later and cast a new wrinkle into things, but, essentially, like the other Jewish sects, they appear to not want to accept Jesus as the Messiah; but, similar, there are the Mormons as a similar, newer group; personally, I'm not Jewish, because I've evaluated the available evidence and had (and have) certain personal experiences that tells me to accept Jesus, so, it becomes a major problem for me when I have to deny Jesus' status; before I came to be at this mortal realm through the birth process, I'd already had a certain relationship with God the Father, so, coupled with my memory, certain experiences simply reminded me of who/what I really was previously; Jesus says that He would send His true sheep the Comforter as confirmation; I have the Comforter and when I see sin or consider sinning or actually sin, it grieves me tremendously; additionally, I feel this force continuing to make me a better person; I pray and get answers; I continually reflect upon God each day; I feel and notice this force guiding my life; although this is not physical evidence, for me, it's overwhelmingly other evidence; everything does not have to be physical to serve as evidence. I guess I'm just one of the blessed/lucky ones, but I truly cherish my place. Aside from this, most of those other "gods" have been long for gotten about or do not have a following as compared to just Christianity, yet along the combined strength of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism combined, along with any variations of them. Those other "gods" have had at least 250 years to regain traction, where monarchs have been virtually eliminated, yet still they have not regained much more traction; but, we only remember them because of the crack caused by the removal of monarchs as the common form of governing. Christianity has not been a religion that is a state religion that requires everyone to confirm to it or be persecuted or executed as an alternative, if ever you could make a serious case of it really ever having been such a religion, yet it continues to spread in a viral manner. Additionally, those other "gods" had to be invented after a great act by God. And you misinterpret how the foundation of the Jewish faith formed; it formed not necessarily from someone looking for another "god", but from someone looking for the truth; God was impressed and formed a special covenant with Jews in specific, as a result, and everyone else became to be referred to as gentiles. Adam and Eve were the first of humans, and they interacted with God. Thus, it's not really a matter of a "gods" coming first, but a matter of humans rediscovering God; thus, there would be no way to rediscover Superman, where there is dispute about Superman's status with the other comic book characters with similar attributes. Are you so sure Superman was the first comic book hero, to kind of reduce the example to the level you're referring to? I'll say that Superman has been made the unintended victim of this argument; Superman has good intentions and he respects good people and a benevolent being.

    And look at your first example,: I and countless others have believed? Are you saying none of us considered the evidence? Are you saying none of us are/were trained scientist? If countless examples of use believe, what, than, constitute evidence of this sort? That's as clear evidence as you can get. The miracles and resurrection were based on eye witness proof; that's why they were documented and created the strong belief; the problem is that most of the eyewitnesses faced martyrdom for holding firm to what they witnessed a few short years later, so it diminished some of the impact. During that time, the eyewitness, or observer, was the most common type of evidence; and there were laterally hundreds, if not, thousands, of eyewitnesses, increasing the credibility.
    Last edited by dshipp17; 11-18-2012 at 06:53 AM.

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by christinereed View Post
    I like Superman, but I agree, there's no comparison between Jesus and Superman. Superman may have some messianic qualities, but he's not the Savior. And, he's not really like Moses. I don't understand why people say he's like Moses. Moses led his people out of slavery and died before they reached the promised land. Where's the Superman story in that? Has Kal-el found a group of Kryptonian survivors who are being enslaved and is leading them to a new home? Has Superman brought his people the Law?


    Anyway, I say we enjoy the story and stop trying to make Superman something he isn't.
    Seconded. Great post.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Holmes View Post
    Yeah well neither is Jesus, who has been kind of a no-show for quite a while anyway.
    Jesus already accomplished what He set out to accomplished; did you notice that Jesus used the phrase "It is finished" while on the cross, just before He gave up the Ghost? Jesus will act again; His time to act again has yet to come again.

  4. #154
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    Is superman basically ripped off versions of Horus and Mithras repackaged by romans in an attempt to hold their empire together? I mean ffs you have the EXACT myths appearing thousands of years before the Hebrews even existed. Son of god, born in a manger, mom was a virgin, wise men visited with presents, died to save mankind.

    At least I cant find out EXACTLY what superman is ripping off with a 5 second google search.

    Superman wins ><

  5. #155

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    Quote Originally Posted by nightrider View Post
    Superman is a Jesus allegory.
    Actually, he did not start as one and should not be one.

    Superman is Samson and Hercules wrapped with the more modern sensibilities of Doc Savage and John Carter.

    Past that, Superman is an allegory to the Jewish immigrant of the early 1900s that was fleeing, being exiled from Europe. And past that, Superman was initially more of a walking New Deal crusader. This idea of him being a deeper spiritual allegory is a very very modern idea for the character.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kymeric View Post
    Is superman basically ripped off versions of Horus and Mithras repackaged by romans in an attempt to hold their empire together? I mean ffs you have the EXACT myths appearing thousands of years before the Hebrews even existed. Son of god, born in a manger, mom was a virgin, wise men visited with presents, died to save mankind.

    At least I cant find out EXACTLY what superman is ripping off with a 5 second google search.
    Allow me.

    Gladiator of Iron

    You are correct though, Jesus is Horus/Mithra just as Superman is Hugo Danner. The first two years of Action Comics reads like Philip Wylie fan fiction. Now watch, any minute now some true believer will show up and blame the Devil's time travelling tricks for these shenanigans.
    Last edited by The Beast; 11-18-2012 at 09:10 AM.

  7. #157

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    Superman borrows heavily from the Doc Savage novels of the times as well. Hello Fortress of Solitude.

  8. #158
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    I don't think there have been any wars or oppression in superman's name, so my vote goes to superman as an inspirational figure.
    Grandparents dead - please no jokes

    make mine DC, thanks

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by dshipp17 View Post
    His time to act again has yet to come again.
    Yeah you believe that.

  10. #160

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    Quote Originally Posted by RoughNTumble View Post
    I don't think there have been any wars or oppression in superman's name, so my vote goes to superman as an inspirational figure.
    If Superman was a 2000 year old relevant historical figure, there would be wars/oppression/etc. carried out in his name. You remove religion from the Crusaders for instance, they still would've happened. People perverting religion to fulfill their own selfish desires is not the fault of religion. It's the fault of people for being bad/selfish/evil what have you. Religion is an easy thing to twist and bend to your whims. You remove religion from those people and they would find something else to twist and bend to their whims to achieve their selfish desires.

    If Superman gained a foothold as a legit historical idea that people believed in, I promise you, there would be cults, there would be wars and there would be oppression all in the name of Superman. He would become just as easily perverted as religion is.

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadDog1981 View Post
    If Superman was a 2000 year old relevant historical figure, there would be wars/oppression/etc. carried out in his name. You remove religion from the Crusaders for instance, they still would've happened. People perverting religion to fulfill their own selfish desires is not the fault of religion. It's the fault of people for being bad/selfish/evil what have you. Religion is an easy thing to twist and bend to your whims. You remove religion from those people and they would find something else to twist and bend to their whims to achieve their selfish desires.
    Nah it's just Christianity and Islam primarily. You never hear about people twisting Buddhism to kill nonbelievers.

    If Superman gained a foothold as a legit historical idea that people believed in, I promise you, there would be cults, there would be wars and there would be oppression all in the name of Superman. He would become just as easily perverted as religion is.
    And the fact is that Superman has never had the pretensions that Jesus does. So you're basically arguing "Yeah well Superman would have the same issues as Jesus if Superman was like Jesus" when the fact is that he never has been like that. The fact that Superman is an icon for the 20th century and is intentionally fiction is why he's better.

  12. #162

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    Nah it's just Christianity and Islam primarily. You never hear about people twisting Buddhism to kill nonbelievers.
    You don't. They kill people for reasons outside of their religion. Look at the Soviet Union, built on on religion and they oppression and killed in the name of the state. That's my point. Bad people are going to do bad things regardless of the existence of race, religion, politics, etc. You remove justifications and they'll find other reasons to do what they do.

    And the fact is that Superman has never had the pretensions that Jesus does. So you're basically arguing "Yeah well Superman would have the same issues as Jesus if Superman was like Jesus" when the fact is that he never has been like that. The fact that Superman is an icon for the 20th century and is intentionally fiction is why he's better.
    I'm talking in the theoretical sense of if they were comparable in the scope of their influence on human history. They're not comparable at all. One is a fictional character that's existed 1938 and the other is a religious figure that's had a major impact on the development of the past 2000+ years of human history.

    EDIT: And as I posted earlier. Superman was created as a modern day Samson/Hercules and was more a walking New Deal ideal than he was anything of a religious character.
    Last edited by MadDog1981; 11-18-2012 at 11:20 AM.

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadDog1981 View Post
    You don't. They kill people for reasons outside of their religion. Look at the Soviet Union, built on on religion and they oppression and killed in the name of the state. That's my point. Bad people are going to do bad things regardless of the existence of race, religion, politics, etc. You remove justifications and they'll find other reasons to do what they do.
    Sure never said religion was the only reason. But it still stands.


    I'm talking in the theoretical sense of if they were comparable in the scope of their influence on human history. They're not comparable at all. One is a fictional character that's existed 1938 and the other is a religious figure that's had a major impact on the development of the past 2000+ years of human history.
    Right, and Jesus's influence on human history has been more negative than anything else, which is why I take the guy who has had considerably less.

  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by dshipp17 View Post
    Ok, either you clearly don't understand God very well or you're being deliberately obtuse; the Christian, Jewish, and Muslim God are intended to be one in the same; the only difference is the way the three groups' approach to seeing and interpreting God
    Much like different companies portray the paragon of Superheroes Superman differently. Like Marvel's Gladiator and Superior and Sentry etc etc. No difference. You're clearly being thick headed, and your own logic is causing you to lose this argument. But silly me to expect a conversation about God to include logic huh...
    Christianity views the introduction of Jesus as the fulfillment of Jewish prophecy, while the other Jewish sects available at the time, broke away from the Jewish sect that accepted Jesus as the Messiah; thus, the two groups divided into Christianity and Judaism. Islam came along about three hundred years later and cast a new wrinkle into things, but, essentially, like the other Jewish sects, they appear to not want to accept Jesus as the Messiah; but, similar, there are the Mormons as a similar, newer group;
    So again like Superman different interpretations arose. I covered this above.

    personally, I'm not Jewish, because I've evaluated the available evidence and had (and have) certain personal experiences that tells me to accept Jesus,
    What evidence? What facts? What you believe and how you feel is irrelevant.

    so, it becomes a major problem for me when I have to deny Jesus' status
    Exactly you can't cope with the fact you don't have evidence and might be wrong. Which the majority of people of Earth agree that you are in fact wrong and have their own evidence to support it.


    before I came to be at this mortal realm through the birth process, I'd already had a certain relationship with God the Father, so, coupled with my memory, certain experiences simply reminded me of who/what I really was previously; Jesus says that He would send His true sheep the Comforter as confirmation; I have the Comforter and when I see sin or consider sinning or actually sin, it grieves me tremendously; additionally, I feel this force continuing to make me a better person; I pray and get answers;
    Blah blah blah I don't care what you think or feel, just the fact that you are passing on your beliefs and opinions as if they are a fact. They are not. Additionally you should want to be a better person just because it's the right thing to do not because someone else tells/compels you to. Doing something good because you are forced/compelled to do doesn't make YOU good. Just the act itself.

    I continually reflect upon God each day
    Maybe you should take some time and learn about other religions.

    I feel and notice this force guiding my life; although this is not physical evidence, for me, it's overwhelmingly other evidence; everything does not have to be physical to serve as evidence.
    Yes it does. A cop can't take a person to jail cause he feels like some guy did a crime. No one cares what you feel or who is feeling all up on you.

    I guess I'm just one of the blessed/lucky ones,
    The people drinking the kool aid thought so too.

    but I truly cherish my place. Aside from this, most of those other "gods" have been long for gotten about or do not have a following as compared to just Christianity, yet along the combined strength of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism combined, along with any variations of them.
    Do yourself a favor and look up Hinduism and Buddhism so you can stop making a fool of yourself. Islam and Judaism don't count. Their God isn't Jesus. It isn't the same. Stop trying to lump yourself in with others because it drives up your numbers. That's not a small difference. It's THE DEFINING difference, amongst others, between those religion.

    Also your "God" is popular now....so what? At one point it was Zeus/Jupiter so that means nothing. Other than it just points out that it helps you to explain, your made up evidence to yourself, if other people believe it too. Pssssttt.... hey once upon a time everyone thought slavery was ok too. Doesn't make it right.

    Those other "gods" have had at least 250 years to regain traction, where monarchs have been virtually eliminated, yet still they have not regained much more traction; but, we only remember them because of the crack caused by the removal of monarchs as the common form of governing. Christianity has not been a religion that is a state religion that requires everyone to confirm to it or be persecuted or executed as an alternative, if ever you could make a serious case of it really ever having been such a religion, yet it continues to spread in a viral manner.
    Hmmmm..... maybe that has to do with the fact that travel became easier, as did access to information (faulty as it may or may not be), nations solidified and communities arose. Roads were built etc etc. As opposed to when these "older" gods were worshipped amongst tribes that moved together from place to place and had very little interest in sharing food, space, or even air with others.

    Additionally, those other "gods" had to be invented after a great act by God.
    Awesome now you're claiming to know who and how Zeus was "invented".

    And you misinterpret how the foundation of the Jewish faith formed; it formed not necessarily from someone looking for another "god", but from someone looking for the truth;
    Someone searching for meaning and truth is how EVERY religion was formed. Except maybe the literal "Jedi" "religion".

    God was impressed and formed a special covenant with Jews in specific, as a result, and everyone else became to be referred to as gentiles.
    Useless information.
    Adam and Eve were the first of humans
    Right and where did the archeologists find their bodies again. I'm sorry it's my brain..... it's no good....too much breeding from incest...

    and they interacted with God. Thus, it's not really a matter of a "gods" coming first, but a matter of humans rediscovering God
    Yeah us damn humans with our faulty memories of how we used to leave in paradise and chill with creator of the universe. Thats a minor detail. Who could blame us for forgetting that?


    thus, there would be no way to rediscover Superman, where there is dispute about Superman's status with the other comic book characters with similar attributes. Are you so sure Superman was the first comic book hero, to kind of reduce the example to the level you're referring to? I'll say that Superman has been made the unintended victim of this argument; Superman has good intentions and he respects good people and a benevolent being.
    You're right it is a shame Superman has to be subjected to religious fanaticism to the point where christians have to lower Superman down to raise Christ up. Before you even try to say isn't what's happening here, I'll refer you to the very title of this thread.

    And look at your first example,: I and countless others have believed? Are you saying none of us considered the evidence?
    I'm saying provide some that isn't in YOUR head or heart or soul or whatever you want to call it. Provide some from an unbiased source. Not the bible. You're are literally saying the Bible is right, and Jesus and God are all powerful, because the bible says so.

    Are you saying none of us are/were trained scientist? If countless examples of use believe, what, than, constitute evidence of this sort? That's as clear evidence as you can get. The miracles and resurrection were based on eye witness proof; that's why they were documented and created the strong belief; the problem is that most of the eyewitnesses faced martyrdom for holding firm to what they witnessed a few short years later, so it diminished some of the impact. During that time, the eyewitness, or observer, was the most common type of evidence; and there were laterally hundreds, if not, thousands, of eyewitnesses, increasing the credibility.

    The bible (the documented proof) was written decades after. If it had such a strong impact immediately as you suggest someone would have been writing the bible Holy Saturday, only to be find out the next day that even more had to be written. Evidence requires UNBIASED proof. Meaning where are all the stories of Jesus. You mean to tell me hundreds and thousands witnessed his miracles and no one wrote about it until decades passed. Just four? Only four people could be bothered to write about this miraculous thing they saw. Where are the Roman's notes? The Jews' notes?

    The truth is there IS more "accounts" they just don't tell the same story so the Church had them taken and burned or locked up. So you got four guys that say something happened. And an indeterminable number that says something else happened. And that's what you want to use as "proof".
    Last edited by R0NIN; 11-18-2012 at 12:03 PM.
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  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by R0NIN View Post
    Much like different companies portray the paragon of Superheroes Superman differently. Like Marvel's Gladiator and Superior and Sentry etc etc. No difference. You're clearly being thick headed, and your own logic is causing you to lose this argument. But silly me to expect a conversation about God to include logic huh...


    So again like Superman different interpretations arose. I covered this above.


    What evidence? What facts? What you believe and how you feel is irrelevant.


    Exactly you can't cope with the fact you don't have evidence and might be wrong. Which the majority of people of Earth agree that you are in fact wrong and have their own evidence to support it.



    Blah blah blah I don't care what you think or feel, just the fact that you are passing on your beliefs and opinions as if they are a fact. They are not. Additionally you should want to be a better person just because it's the right thing to do not because someone else tells/compels you to. Doing something good because you are forced/compelled to do doesn't make YOU good. Just the act itself.


    Maybe you should take some time and learn about other religions.



    Yes it does. A cop can't take a person to jail cause he feels like some guy did a crime. No one cares what you feel or who is feeling all up on you.


    The people drinking the kool aid thought so too.



    Do yourself a favor and look up Hinduism and Buddhism so you can stop making a fool of yourself. Islam and Judaism don't count. Their God isn't Jesus. It isn't the same. Stop trying to lump yourself in with others because it drives up your numbers. That's not a small difference. It's THE DEFINING difference, amongst others, between those religion.

    Also your "God" is popular now....so what? At one point it was Zeus/Jupiter so that means nothing. Other than it just points out that it helps you to explain, your made up evidence to yourself, if other people believe it too. Pssssttt.... hey once upon a time everyone thought slavery was ok too. Doesn't make it right.



    Hmmmm..... maybe that has to do with the fact that travel became easier, as did access to information (faulty as it may or may not be), nations solidified and communities arose. Roads were built etc etc. As opposed to when these "older" gods were worshipped amongst tribes that moved together from place to place and had very little interest in sharing food, space, or even air with others.



    Awesome now you're claiming to know who and how Zeus was "invented".



    Someone searching for meaning and truth is how EVERY religion was formed. Except maybe the literal "Jedi" "religion".


    Useless information.

    Right and where did the archeologists find their bodies again. I'm sorry it's my brain..... it's no good....too much breeding from incest...



    Yeah us damn humans with our faulty memories of how we used to leave in paradise and chill with creator of the universe. Thats a minor detail. Who could blame us for forgetting that?



    You're right it is a shame Superman has to be subjected to religious fanaticism to the point where christians have to lower Superman down to raise Christ up. Before you even try to say isn't what's happening here, I'll refer you to the very title of this thread.


    I'm saying provide some that isn't in YOUR head or heart or soul or whatever you want to call it. Provide some from an unbiased source. Not the bible. You're are literally saying the Bible is right, and Jesus and God are all powerful, because the bible says so.




    The bible (the documented proof) was written decades after. If it had such a strong impact immediately as you suggest someone would have been writing the bible Holy Saturday, only to be find out the next day that even more had to be written. Evidence requires UNBIASED proof. Meaning where are all the stories of Jesus. You mean to tell me hundreds and thousands witnessed his miracles and no one wrote about it until decades passed. Just four? Only four people could be bothered to write about this miraculous thing they saw. Where are the Roman's notes? The Jews' notes?

    The truth is there IS more "accounts" they just don't tell the same story so the Church had them taken and burned or locked up. So you got four guys that say something happened. And an indeterminable number that says something else happened. And that's what you want to use as "proof".
    Your case is nonsense; by this argument, how well documented is Rome and Greek in, say, Native American culture, at the time of the first century? What about Chinese or Japanese culture, at the time of the first century? Try to get a clearer grasp of what it’s like trying to gather evidence where the penalty for such activity is death; and clearly, thousands were martyred; be logical, what got lost with the martyred? Christianity spread all over; it didn't stay stuck in the region near Jerusalem; Roman citizens were martyred; and Greek citizens were martyred; at the specified time, the eyewitness accounts in Rome and Grease were simply martyred and the remaining citizens wanted Christianity to die away; the other Jewish sects wanted Christianity to die away; thus, expecting widespread enthusiasm from those groups a few years after Jesus’ resurrection is just your circular logic; as I told another poster, debate with Everett Ferguson, so that he can mangle you; he’d have more thorough detail for you, concerning the outside of the Bible evidence; I know there is some, but Everett Ferguson spent decades gathering it, and I’d be extracting it from memory and a search of a few hours; I’m more on the scientific side, see http://www.discovery.org/a/2640

    Who do you suppose Jesus is referring to when He using the term Father? I even have the Lord’s Prayer as a reference and that’s the prayer I use nearly every day to gain comfort. A clearer understanding of Christianity should show that Jesus in no way established Himself as the one true God; thus, Christianity is not a separate sect completely devoid of God as named in Judaism or Islam; Jesus is not as separate from them as say Buddha or a Hindu deity.
    Last edited by dshipp17; 11-18-2012 at 01:42 PM.

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