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  1. #646

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rheged View Post
    You mean since the military was finally forced to admit gays and lesbians exist last year, and forced to admit women could have the same jobs men could this year? Those 'white minority' women and LGBTs finally achieve the same status as black males in the military, 65 years later. Well, at least on paper.
    Right. One of those gays was my roommate and good friend for almost a year in Korea. That guy was one of the funniest dudes I've ever met. Another one was a female Captain that I worked with. Also, I always had the feeling that one of my close friend/coworker was gay, but I never confronted him about it. I figured if it was something he wanted to bring up to me, he would. I'm not sure why he wouldn't, I've been a pretty outspoken guy when it comes to gay rights especially during the proposition 8 crap they tried to pass in California. I'm not sure if you are trying to characterize me a certain way or paint the military as anti gay but I do agree, the don't ask don't tell rule was definitely something that had to go.

    And as for your female comment, I can't speak for any other branch of service but the Air Force usually pushes females to the forefront when it comes to recognition. There is definitely preferential treatment, at least in the units I've worked in. I'm not saying all of those females I've seen aren't deserving of recognition, that would be a ridiculous statement but pending some sort of bad attitude they do have an advantage. It's kind of an unspoken topic, no one gets pissed off or fussy about it. Sometimes I'd literally see stuff that would come that says a female is required to participate in whatever. I'd venture to guess that it would have a lot to do with motivating other females in the unit. But this is getting way off topic........

    Edit: I'd like to add one more thing. I think it's kind of sad that I got two responses, one that would attack my military background and the other that tried to label me as a racist to retort my original point. Why does the topic of diversity in comics have to go down this road? I don't understand it. Is this the reason why Marvel and DC don't have the motivation to include minorities as important characters in their universe? Do they recognize that this level of hostility from their fan base exist? Or is there some other reason?
    Last edited by Voss; 11-21-2012 at 09:59 AM.

  2. #647
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voss View Post
    Right. One of those gays was my roommate and good friend for almost a year in Korea. That guy was one of the funniest dudes I've ever met. Another one was a female Captain that I worked with. Also, I always had the feeling that one of my close friend/coworker was gay, but I never confronted him about it. I figured if it was something he wanted to bring up to me, he would. I'm not sure why he wouldn't, I've been a pretty outspoken guy when it comes to gay rights especially during the proposition 8 crap they tried to pass in California. I'm not sure if you are trying to characterize me a certain way or paint the military as anti gay but I do agree, the don't ask don't tell rule was definitely something that had to go.

    And as for your female comment, I can't speak for any other branch of service but the Air Force usually pushes females to the forefront when it comes to recognition. There is definitely preferential treatment, at least in the units I've worked in. I'm not saying all of those females I've seen aren't deserving of recognition, that would be a ridiculous statement but pending some sort of bad attitude they do have an advantage. It's kind of an unspoken topic, no one gets pissed off or fussy about it. Sometimes I'd literally see stuff that would come that says a female is required to participate in whatever. I'd venture to guess that it would have a lot to do with motivating other females in the unit. But this is getting way off topic........

    I'm saying, claiming that gays and women are part of the majority, when they were LEGALLY treated like second class citizens and denied rights the so called 'non-white' minority have enjoyed for half a century in the military, is ridiculous. I'm saying the military reality you live in is NOT what you claim it to be, at least not for those 'white minority' folks.

    I'm not bashing the military really, as I'm an Army brat, and I think on many levels, the military handles racial diversity better than any institution in America. But it's NOT what America really looks like. We both know that the military has a much higher percentage of Hispanics and African Americans and other minorities and why that is. As well as a much lower percentage of women.

    Quote Originally Posted by Voss View Post
    Edit: I'd like to add one more thing. I think it's kind of sad that I got two responses, one that would attack my military background and the other that tried to label me as a racist to retort my original point. Why does the topic of diversity in comics have to go down this road? I don't understand it. Is this the reason why Marvel and DC don't have the motivation to include minorities as important characters in their universe? Do they recognize that this level of hostility from their fan base exist? Or is there some other reason?
    It's early and Wednesday -- I wouldn't expect many responses yet.

    If you are going to use your military background to support your argument, why are you surprised when someone else refers to it?

    I've also often wondered if creators feel reluctant to use minority characters, because the crap from the fan bases outweigh the effort?

  3. #648
    Senior Member Luck911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rheged View Post
    You mean since the military was finally forced to admit gays and lesbians exist last year, and forced to admit women could have the same jobs men could this year? Those 'white minority' women and LGBTs finally achieve the same status as black males in the military, 65 years later. Well, at least on paper.
    What are you talking about ?This problem in compare "struggles",I am going look like ass to some but gay and lesbians where always in military and women are part every thing in military except combat units.You are trying to sell keeping quiet about being gay and not being allowed to fight in the same light as not being allowed in period.For the last 65 years women and gay are part of military.I am not knock anyone struggles but i wish at times racial minorities had option of hiding in the majority,My Staff sergeant is gay,I know tons of lesbians in military they didn't magically join the military last year they where always in

    People keep trying to say it is the same thing but once all my Sgt had to is not saying and he was allowed in military( something which was not right to happen you should be free to be who you are).You have complain about Women not being combat but women in military are held to lower physical standards meaning i have complete a run 18 mins because i am male,a women in the positions has to complete in 23 min.Something to think about you will see huge drop in females in the military if they had same physical standards as men


    I will back what Voss said the about military it is beautiful diverse and only color we see green,gray or blue.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rheged View Post
    I'm saying, claiming that gays and women are part of the majority, when they were LEGALLY treated like second class citizens and denied rights the so called 'non-white' minority have enjoyed for half a century in the military, is ridiculous. I'm saying the military reality you live in is NOT what you claim it to be, at least not for those 'white minority' folks.
    ?
    Second class citizens get out here with that BS, Women and Men are treated the same in military,you can go as far saying that women have a little easier than men in military because of lower PT standards.You are making a false claim,Not allow gay to say they are gay military is unfair not allowing Women in combat jobs was unfair but they are not treated like second class citizens in military.They are women in every important positions and once you didn't announce that you where gay you advanced like any other person in military.
    Last edited by Luck911; 11-21-2012 at 10:47 AM.

  4. #649

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rheged View Post
    I'm saying, claiming that gays and women are part of the majority, when they were LEGALLY treated like second class citizens and denied rights the so called 'non-white' minority have enjoyed for half a century in the military, is ridiculous. I'm saying the military reality you live in is NOT what you claim it to be, at least not for those 'white minority' folks.

    I'm not bashing the military really, as I'm an Army brat, and I think on many levels, the military handles racial diversity better than any institution in America. But it's NOT what America really looks like. We both know that the military has a much higher percentage of Hispanics and African Americans and other minorities and why that is. As well as a much lower percentage of women.



    It's early and Wednesday -- I wouldn't expect many responses yet.

    If you are going to use your military background to support your argument, why are you surprised when someone else refers to it?

    I've also often wondered if creators feel reluctant to use minority characters, because the crap from the fan bases outweigh the effort?
    White minority is not a term I'm familiar with. What I was pointing out in my previous post was that most of those gays and female characters portrayed in comics are still white. That's it. I used my military background to point out that the fact that we do indeed have a racially diverse set of people (male, female, gay and straight) that serve to protect our country and that the "heroes" in comics books don't reflect that kind of diversity. That to me doesn't accurately reflect America. It might to you, but it doesn't to me.
    Last edited by Voss; 11-21-2012 at 10:57 AM.

  5. #650
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voss View Post
    White minority is not a term I'm familiar with. What I was pointing out in my previous post was that most of those gays and female characters portrayed in comics are still white. That's it. I used my military background to point out that the fact that we do indeed have a racially diverse set of people (male, female, gay and straight) that serve to protect our country and that the "heroes" comics books don't reflect that kind of diversity. That to me doesn't accurately reflect America. It might to you, but it doesn't to me.
    O_o

    Are you reading this thread? "White minority" has been bandied about in the last couple of pages. It's how you are dismissing women and gays from being minorities cause, "at the end of the day most of them still represent the white majority."

  6. #651
    Senior Member Luck911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rheged View Post
    O_o

    Are you reading this thread? "White minority" has been bandied about in the last couple of pages. It's how you are dismissing women and gays from being minorities cause, "at the end of the day most of them still represent the white majority."
    Things all not all or nothing,Calling characters white minorities puts in perspective while having some the same issues as racial minorities that they are still apart of majority which makes the experiences different.Women and LGBT are minorities just like old people,kids,handicap,etc but experience is not same being part of majority and some problems are migrated being part of majority.

    Using Jews or Gay males as examples,If you some case don't say you are part of those groups people will never know,It is complete different experience being Arab or Asian and not being able to blend in to larger group.Like i said i hate to go after white minorities because the people experiencing the same problems many of racial minority face but things are not completely same and i think it should be noted.

    I am not trying to put down non racial minorities but i think some perspective is needed a little,Racial minority does not get to hide in majority.We want to put them in the same category,If things are bad things for white women,Then imagine how much worse things are for a black or latino woman.If things are bad for gay white male then imagine how much more thing screwed for Asian or Arab gay male. The first step is understand that being part of majority deflects a lot of problems at times
    Last edited by Luck911; 11-21-2012 at 11:24 AM.

  7. #652

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rheged View Post
    O_o

    Are you reading this thread? "White minority" has been bandied about in the last couple of pages. It's how you are dismissing women and gays from being minorities cause, "at the end of the day most of them still represent the white majority."
    Most of the gay and female characters that have been introduced in comics are white. What are you not understanding about this? How about some more ethnic characters that are women and gay? Are you against that?
    Last edited by Voss; 11-21-2012 at 11:27 AM.

  8. #653
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voss View Post
    Most of the gay and female characters that have been introduced in comics are white. What are you not understanding about this? How about some more ethnic women and gays? Are you against that?
    Kieran_Frost expressed a hope that Christopher, the new black guy in ANXM, would be gay. He got some pretty abusive responses from people, who demanded that the guy be an "alpha male". Also, in this thread and others, women of colour have been dismissed out of hand as being nothing more than "white man's fantasies" by the same sort of people.

    It's genuinely difficult to try and reason when presented with that sort of mindset.

    I'd like to say that the "people of colour can't hide" argument also applies to women, and the prejudices we face are just as real. As Rheged pointed out earlier, inequalities against women still exist in law and in the workplace, or have only recently been overturned; decades later than legislation passed to establish and preserve the rights of people of colour to the same. I hope you personally can appreciate where I'm coming from with that, even if others will dismiss it as they have before.
    Women are beautiful. But we're not here for your goddamn titillation.- junesdisco

  9. #654
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luck911 View Post
    What are you talking about ?This problem in compare "struggles",I am going look like ass to some but gay and lesbians where always in military and women are part every thing in military except combat units.You are trying to sell keeping quiet about being gay and not being allowed to fight in the same light as not being allowed in period.For the last 65 years women and gay are part of military.I am not knock anyone struggles but i wish at times racial minorities had option of hiding in the majority,My Staff sergeant is gay,I know tons of lesbians in military they didn't magically join the military last year they where always in

    People keep trying to say it is the same thing but once all my Sgt had to is not saying and he was allowed in military( something which was not right to happen you should be free to be who you are).You have complain about Women not being combat but women in military are held to lower physical standards meaning i have complete a run 18 mins because i am male,a women in the positions has to complete in 23 min.Something to think about you will see huge drop in females in the military if they had same physical standards as men

    Second class citizens get out here with that BS, Women and Men are treated the same in military,you can go as far saying that women have a little easier than men in military because of lower PT standards.You are making a false claim,Not allow gay to say they are gay military is unfair not allowing Women in combat jobs was unfair but they are not treated like second class citizens in military.They are women in every important positions and once you didn't announce that you where gay you advanced like any other person in military.
    That's not at all what I said or implied. Black men have been legally allowed serve in the military since the Revolution, but just like LGBT and women, they were NOT legally treated as equal until Truman, about 65 years ago. I'm not sure how much more direct a correlation there can be. And really??? You think being legally denied the same rights as another citizen is NOT being treated like a second class citizen? So a segregated military pre-WWII was only unfair, and did not actually treat black men as second class citizens?

    If you think passing is some sort of solution, then try a skin whitener. I'm honestly getting annoyed at your repeated suggestion that white women and LGBT have somehow suffered less discrimination and 'struggles' -- when history and watching a freaking newscast, proves otherwise. And I hate to break it to you, but the majority of white women simply can NOT pass for a white male.

    You say everyone is treated the same in the military and then tell me how they aren't.

    FYI, I'm in favor of women actually being held to the same PT standards.
    Last edited by Rheged; 11-21-2012 at 11:40 AM.

  10. #655
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady_Alternate View Post
    Kieran_Frost expressed a hope that Christopher, the new black guy in ANXM, would be gay. He got some pretty abusive responses from people, who demanded that the guy be an "alpha male". Also, in this thread and others, women of colour have been dismissed out of hand as being nothing more than "white man's fantasies" by the same sort of people.

    It's genuinely difficult to try and reason when presented with that sort of mindset.

    I'd like to say that the "people of colour can't hide" argument also applies to women, and the prejudices we face are just as real. As Rheged pointed out earlier, inequalities against women still exist in law and in the workplace, or have only recently been overturned; decades later than legislation passed to establish and preserve the rights of people of colour to the same. I hope you personally can appreciate where I'm coming from with that, even if others will dismiss it as they have before.
    Exactly. Which goes to my point. For many, this isn't about diversity, but about personal identification with a power fantasy that looks the same. Not that different from white males.

  11. #656

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady_Alternate View Post
    I'd like to say that the "people of colour can't hide" argument also applies to women, and the prejudices we face are just as real. As Rheged pointed out earlier, inequalities against women still exist in law and in the workplace, or have only recently been overturned; decades later than legislation passed to establish and preserve the rights of people of colour to the same. I hope you personally can appreciate where I'm coming from with that, even if others will dismiss it as they have before.
    No question. I'd like to think that I am a huge advocate of gay and female rights. I've stood alone and debated this topic way to many times to count. Not to drag another topic into this thread but it's one of the primary reasons why I am not affiliated with any sort of religious organization. Being in the middle east and seeing how females couldn't even ride in the passenger seat of vehicles (they had to sit in the back), or how they weren't allowed to look or talk to you especially with their husbands present was disgusting to me. In many ways I am emotionally attached to that topic, being that I was raised by a single mom and have three younger sisters. Unfortunately, my posts are even more divisive then intended. It shouldn't be that way as we are all on the same side of the fence.
    Last edited by Voss; 11-21-2012 at 11:52 AM.

  12. #657
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady_Alternate View Post
    He got some pretty abusive responses from people, who demanded that the guy be an "alpha male". Also, in this thread and others, women of colour have been dismissed out of hand as being nothing more than "white man's fantasies" by the same sort of people.

    It's genuinely difficult to try and reason when presented with that sort of mindset.
    If I know said people you are talking about, or "sort of people" as you say, then they have also dismissed some POC male characters too. Falcon and Prodigy being very notable targets. So it's not like they are doing it for sexist reasons, but for how they feel said women of colour are portrayed in the book. I have no idea what happened with Christopher thing, so I won't comment or defend whoever brought it up.

    But I find it extremely unfair that you and others have portrayed your side as the only one using reason for your "mindset". As if the people who have been arguing with you haven't.
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    Senior Member Luck911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rheged View Post

    If you think passing is some sort of solution, then try a skin whitener. I'm honestly getting annoyed at your repeated suggestion that white women and LGBT have somehow suffered less discrimination and 'struggles' -- when history and watching a freaking newscast, proves otherwise. And I hate to break it to you, but the majority of white women simply can NOT pass for a white male..
    I hate tell you that a Black Woman can't pass for a White Woman or Male,The treatment of white female and racial minority female are two different things.My intent is not discount somebody struggles because they do exists.My intent is get people to stop pretending that being part of majority does not have some advantages in treatment.

    Anything said more looks like a trying to discount issues of minority group which i am not but if white women is having issue in America the likelihood the issue is worse for minority female in the exact same position,Ask your self why?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Kamikaze10 View Post
    If I know said people you are talking about, or "sort of people" as you say, then they have also dismissed some POC male characters too. Falcon and Prodigy being very notable targets. So it's not like they are doing it for sexist reasons, but for how they feel said women of colour are portrayed in the book. I have no idea what happened with Christopher thing, so I won't comment or defend whoever brought it up.

    But I find it extremely unfair that you and others have portrayed your side as the only one using reason for your "mindset". As if the people who have been arguing with you haven't.
    Right. Like white women have never been portrayed in a comic book as a white, or black, man's fantasy.

    It was definitely sexism. Another way to dismiss women, this time of a 'real' minority, because the only 'minority' that counts for them is black males.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rheged View Post
    Right. Like white women have never been portrayed in a comic book as a white, or black, man's fantasy.
    Hence where the complaint came from. It happens to women in general, but for POC women (and at times men too), exoticism comes to play too. Neither are irrational complaints.

    It was definitely sexism. Another way to dismiss women, this time of a 'real' minority, because the only 'minority' that counts for them is black males.
    How is it just a dismissal, and not a complaint/questioning on how women are portrayed in comics? Objectification happens far too often in superhero comics, and that's why when there's a female heavy cast, especially since physiques are usually limited to athletic and buxom, these accusations are thrown in.

    Is it sexist? You know what, it is prejudiced, unless the text proves otherwise. I mean, it's not like every team with female heroes, even good looking ones, on it is just titillation. However, I would also say that it's a side effect of the track record of superhero comics.

    I'm not going to touch this "only black males" business. If you are going to accuse people of dismissing minorities, you may not want to do the same.
    Last edited by Double 0; 11-21-2012 at 12:38 PM.
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