Remender Expands The Cast Of "Uncanny Avengers" LIVE!

[Kieran_Frost]

Yeah its good in 2 of 3 categories.

Which is ONE MORE category than New Avengers is good in... and yet here you are DEFENDING your persecution of the most diverse Avengers team in Marvel NOW! while continuing to defend the least diverse Avengers team in Marvel NOW!

Yeah I think Hickman should have put Brand on the team. Although whether you can count her as mutant rep is debabtable not to mention membership also includes who has an Infinity Gem. Lets just Xavier is not going to give one to Brand. Still I feel I am just repeating will break down below.

Does the complete lack of female representation bother you?

1. Its true out of 6, they have one minority.
2. Yeah I am going stand by the argument that in no way do I consider white passing aliens or gods to be minorities. They are all white in my book. Sure you can make a case for Teddy he is a shapeshifter after all but his default form and the form he spent most of his life possessing as is a white male. So if Alien looks white I view them as white. Look black well they count as black. Look blue well don't count as anything because blue humans don't exist in the real world.
3. Not sure what the problem is we only got MAC because Eli got blocked. And it is a step back from series we have got since Young Avengers first came out.
4. Yeah I find it pretty significant when a founding member is blacklisted.

Women are a minority. LGBT is a minority. Teddy isn't a minority because he's an alien, he's a minority because he's gay. NO-ONE objected to you not wanting to consider aliens as a minority; they object to you think minority and diversity mean ONLY skin colour.

I have happily opposed Uncanny Avengers.

And happily defended the less diverse New Avengers...

1. Why is only founding member who is blacklisted the black character? Gillen wanted him and got denied why it happen. Although that is more editorial annoyance.
2. Different roster requirements. I have said it 100 times the New Avengers has major roster restrictions that are not related to just one writer or editors. Marvel lacks females in prominent positions. Uncanny Avengers and Young Avengers have pretty open roster choices by comparison. YA basically any teen. UA have to have been an Avenger or X-men in the past.
3. Teen Books tend to knock diversity out of the park and I think this a decline from Generation Hope (50% Female and 50% POC) and Avengers Academy (5F to 3M, 2 LGBTS and 50% POC). Although I suppose most of the minorities getting sent to be killed in Avengers Arena really annoys me as well. Although again editorial. So yeah Young Avengers is better then the other Avenger teams but I hold teen books to a higher standard and its kinda of lacking on that front.

If Gillen kept Eli (so no MAC but still Kate) and replaced Wiccan and Teddy with Synch and Hellion, but still adding Noh-var and KidLoki... (it's diversity falling to BELOW the current percentage the new Young Avengers comic now rests at)... would you be raising the same level of objection?

I don't think they trump each other but just because a team is diverse in one column does not mean its not lacking in another.

You don't think a team where 4/6 of the cast are diverse trumps a comic where 1/6 of the cast is diverse... really?

[Monty_Cristo]

Does the complete lack of female representation bother you?

it might if he were female. there are female posters who have complained about the lack of females. you wouldn't say to them, "you only see diversity in terms of sex."

[JaggedFel]

Yes it is better then NA. A book cannot be persecuted. You asked a question I responded. I am in no way celebrating NA because of its lack of diversity.

Yes it does. Although I am more disappointed that Marvel has not developed a lot of minorities and females as top level mover and shakers.

Terminology when I say minority rep I am talking about Racial Diversity but if you want I can use POC from now on if that would help. Also please I have seen people peddle the bs aliens count as minorities stuff before. The poster explicitly mentioned Noh Varr and Kid Loki counting so I know for a fact that is not what was being said. Yes, Teddy counts for being Gay though.

You asked for reasons I gave you some that I thought were good if you don't agree that is fine but you asked for why there was a difference and I tried explaining it to you.

I would say it has horrible gender equity and does a good POC rep. I would though complain about two gay founding characters being replaced. Now I might not have made as strong of case for Wiccan as I would Hulking (who I like and think needs to get out of the shadow) but I loathe Wiccan. I find him to be a whiny mary sue. And no I don't hate all gay characters. As I said like Teddy. Love WS Midnighter (not to hot on current through, Stormwatch just not a good book) and I enjoy Batwoman (although I think the pace could stand to get picked up a bit).

I am not sure what your point is. Yeah 33% is great LGBT representation. 33% Female is great when compared to other Avengers Book. Compared to other teen team books a bit below par since no recent teen team book has launched with below 50% Female Rep in a while.

[JaggedFel]

it might if he were female. there are female posters who have complained about the lack of females. you wouldn't say to them, "you only see diversity in terms of sex."

Oh I care but I also take your point. Posters complaining about lack of female representation never get shot down like that. People complaining about the lack of POC though get struck down all the time like that. So there is a double standard active.

[Kieran_Frost]

I am in no way celebrating NA because of its lack of diversity.

PROGRESS!!!

[ref. does the lack of females in NA both you?] Yes it does. Although I am more disappointed that Marvel has not developed a lot of minorities and females as top level mover and shakers.

Ah, MORE progress... we are getting somewhere, good sir.

Terminology when I say minority rep I am talking about Racial Diversity but if you want I can use POC from now on if that would help.

Yes, please GOD stop saying minority or diversity, when you only mean POC (mainly because it comes across as offensive to all minorities NOT POC).

Also please I have seen people peddle the bs aliens count as minorities stuff before. The poster explicitly mentioned Noh Varr and Kid Loki counting so I know for a fact that is not what was being said. Yes, Teddy counts for being Gay though.

Do not try and pretend your only objections to diversity in regards to Young Avengers are limited to those peddling aliens as the diversity (which is a VERY small percentage of posters... we don't need to count aliens, we have 4/6 cast members as a minority). Plenty of posters made it clear Wiccan and Teddy are gay, MAC is POC and the comic has two women. You objection is NOT limited to "counting aliens"; and you know it.

You asked for reasons I gave you some that I thought were good if you don't agree that is fine but you asked for why there was a difference and I tried explaining it to you.

You carted out justifications contained in the same type of language that you DID NOT (and still don't) accept for Young Avengers (Marvel's fault = can't use Eli), or Uncanny Avengers (Marvel's fault = can't use Storm or Voodoo). You can't have it both ways, either use that to defend Hickman and ACCEPT it with others comics, or don't do it. My objection is to double standard, NOT to some very fair points being made as to WHY Hickman's limited in female reps.

Oh I care but I also take your point. Posters complaining about lack of female representation never get shot down like that. People complaining about the lack of POC though get struck down all the time like that. So there is a double standard active.

Young Avengers doesn't lack a POC... and yet you still object? It has just as many POC as New Avengers... which you don't object to...

it might if he were female. there are female posters who have complained about the lack of females. you wouldn't say to them, "you only see diversity in terms of sex."

I'm not a woman... I bothers me! Why is it assumed only people of [insert minority] can possibly care about the representation of said minorities? Where does it say we probably can't find interest and support in minorities NOT own?

[Monty_Cristo]

I'm not a woman... I bothers me! Why is it assumed only people of [insert minority] can possibly care about the representation of said minorities? Where does it say we probably can't find interest and support in minorities NOT own?

why did you assume that he didn't care about female representation? and, for that matter, when are you going to say that black diversity matters?

[JaggedFel]

I am not sure your reading my posts. Its not like I ever personally attacked Gillen. And I said above that its more of an editorial problem multiple times.

Yeah because the circumstances are different. New Avengers is top movers and shakers which is a very short list of characters. Uncanny Avengers is any character who has ever been an Avenger or and X-man. Seriously Sunfire qualified as an X-man. If he can make the cut then basically anyone can count. Young Avengers counts all teens. Its clear which one has more restrictive options. That does not mean Hickman should not have put Brand on instead of Beast.

Yeah I know Teddy and Wiccan are gay and that MAC is a Latina. Again compared to what has come out teen team wise since young avengers first launched almost a decade ago this roster represents a decline in POC and Women. I am comparing to AA and the like not NA. Of course it beats NA. Now you might disagree with me having higher standards for it but I just do.

Also to be fair you realize your double counting though. Its 3 of 6 Characters you are counting MAC twice unless you want to say its 18 in which cases its 2 Females + 2 Gays + 1 for 5/18. 6 times 3 (POC, LGBTS, and Females). Although I think the better way is POC: 1/6, LGBT: 33% and Females: 33%. Then either leave it or add them together and divide by 3.

Well I am glad you agree some what. Gillen tried to roll over all the YA. Got blocked replaced Eli with MAC and then got to pick Loki and Noh Varr. Hickman tried to roll over all the guys who were at the first Illuminati meeting got outvoted on keeping Xavier alive so replaced with Beast. Way I see it they both tried to roll over all the founding members they could. Hickman picked one to replace a founder. Gillen picked one to replace a founder then got to choose for the other members. Rick got blocked twice but basically got to pick mostly from what we know although was probably required to have a few cash cows on the team. Still I can see how it looks like a double standard to you. Even if I dont see it that way.

Sorry I don't view 1 POC as all that impressive especially not for a teen team book. Most team books in marvel managed to score 1 in POC counts.

[Rheged]

it might if he were female. there are female posters who have complained about the lack of females. you wouldn't say to them, "you only see diversity in terms of sex."

I would if they kept insisting that diversity = women.

Oh I care but I also take your point. Posters complaining about lack of female representation never get shot down like that. People complaining about the lack of POC though get struck down all the time like that. So there is a double standard active.

This is TOTAL BS. I can't tell you how many times I've been told on CBR that "women don't count," usually by a guy complaining about the lack of "diversity," i.e. black males.

[Lady_Alternate]

Posters complaining about lack of female representation never get shot down like that.

I'm sorry, but we do. Just look back over the threads about Hickman's Avengers and New Avengers. You may also want to note the amount of "women aren't a minority / don't count as diversity" posts that crop up.

People complaining about the lack of POC though get struck down all the time like that. So there is a double standard active.

Except there's not, unless you're choosing to be deliberately ignorant.

[Monty_Cristo]

I'm sorry, but we do. Just look back over the threads about Hickman's Avengers and New Avengers. You may also want to note the amount of "women aren't a minority / don't count as diversity" posts that crop up.

well it's not uncommon for the Avengers to have at least one white lady on board. the fewer women on the team, the less likely that a non-white woman will be included. why is it that Monica Rambeau, an Avengers chairperson, was never invited back?

Spider-woman
Mockingbird
Carol Danvers
Jessica Jones
Victoria Hand
Daisy Johnson
Maria Hill
Squirrel Girl
Valkyrie

that's been the last few years except for when Storm showed up to get incapacitated by some Hydra agent and Echo disappeared.

[Lady_Alternate]

why is it that Monica Rambeau, an Avengers chairperson, was never invited back?

Because of Nextwave. More than one writer has come right out and said that - they love what Ellis did, but he left the characters borderline unusable; more so now that its been dragged into continuity.

That aside, though, I'm not sure I see how your post responds to what I was saying.

[Monty_Cristo]

Because of Nextwave. More than one writer has come right out and said that - they love what Ellis did, but he left the characters borderline unusable; more so now that its been dragged into continuity.

Machine Man is all over the place

That aside, though, I'm not sure I see how your post responds to what I was saying.

my point is that it's more complex than you're making it. female characters do count as diversity. but not so much when there's not even that much diversity among the females that they add.

[Lady_Alternate]

Machine Man is all over the place

Brian Reed used him as flat-out Nextwave Stack and it didn't work. Jeff Parker has rebooted him into something different, but that's not something you can do with every character. No point in arguing it with me, though - its Marvel's writers saying it.

my point is that it's more complex than you're making it. female characters do count as diversity. but not so much when there's not even that much diversity among the females that they add.

I don't think it is more complex. Female representation is just that, and doesn't need further qualification. Do you feel that every woman on that list is a carbon copy of one another, or an individual? Does a woman have to cross into a second 'diversity category' to somehow "count" or be meaningful?

[JaggedFel]

I think the point is a character can be a female, LBT and POC. It's not mutually exclusive

[RDMacQ]

Brian Reed used him as flat-out Nextwave Stack and it didn't work. Jeff Parker has rebooted him into something different, but that's not something you can do with every character. No point in arguing it with me, though - its Marvel's writers saying it.

I think it's more along the lines of not every writer should follow in another's footsteps. Brian Reed is no Warren Ellis, and shouldn't be expected to write like him. Jeff Parker found a way for Machine Man to work for him and his style. True, it's not like the Nextwave version, but it's not without it's own merits.