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  1. #586
    Senior Member Luck911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Kamikaze10 View Post
    I keep asking this.

    WHO are the people who think diversity = black people? I keep hearing this mantra, but don't see it in action. I'm thinking it's assumptions being made to shut up this discussion.
    I think might fall into the group but have explanation for that,We have these discussion people keep saying i am going to refer it is as "white minorities" to drive home my point but we have discussions on the board and people seem happy please with books like Uncanny X-men or Secret Avengers and claim the books to be diverse in using white minorities.It is a difficult task because women,handicap,gay,old people,white people from certain countries face many of same discrimination as racial minorities but comic world and much of US began as place where would see no racial minorities in anything.

    It is just seem like the easy solution to use white minority keep a status quo similar to begin,In comic book world or entertainment world i don't think fair weight white minorities and racial minorities as the same thing,In real life situation with benefits for quality of life i have no problem with white minorities getting the same treatment but seeing 6 white people on team in comics people praise it as diverse,I can't quite get behind that as black person a racial minority coming from my eyes those books looks just like the 40,50,60's.You tell me 1960 the xmen launch with 5 white people and 2012 the uncanny X-men launched with 6 white people. I am not saying i am right but it racial minority it feels the same as before.They could cut off Beast arms and make Iceman gay,Angel could get fat,They could say say cyclops mom was jew. Then people would say that original X-men are diverse when nothing has changed real from my view

    Right or Wrong,I prefer to see racial diversity before i see diversity of the kind

    Quote Originally Posted by Daesim View Post
    My brother is a registered nurse. There many men working as nurses. It's excellent pay and good hours with no stigma attached to the profession.

    Yes, there are female soldiers serving in combat units in armies across the globe including South Korea and Israel, two countries that are as battle hardened as it gets. It's inevitable that it'll happen in the U.S. and other nations. SK even has a special forces unit that consists solely of women.


    That's the reality, hombre. My mother served in the Army for nine years. Chicks can pull their own weight.
    I will be nicer to you,I never deny that i know they are male nurses,I am pretty sure they are a couple female fighter pilots or helicopter pilots in US military.I didn't say they were not any or they can't be any.All i have said is the reality is they are more one gender in certain things and in picking a group of the best of those groups you will like get all one of gender because they are heavily one gender make of the job.Marvel situation is that for what ever reason Marvel has not create a female leader that is one level of the best leaders in marvel,So here is problem we can compare racism at one point they were no black doctors not because black couldn't do the job because they are not allowed but just because they are allowing black doctors mean you would accept any black person to be a doctor.The same thing with great females leaders in marvel is not that female can't do the job,It is that were allowed but that does not mean you should stick any female on New Avengers.The reality is they are no great candidates for the new Avengers until they their is a great one New Avengers are better off as all males.Which was my original point most people understand this about New Avengers and it gets a sort of pass,If they where one consensus female that fit fans would be reigning hell on Marvel.

    Women can do any job as males,I have no problem with females doing any job they want to do.I had no problem women with in combat,After spending 4 years Marine corps i have come across several women who could kick my ass and 90 percent of males in this country.With that said i am not going hide the fact the more way more men doing some jobs and thus way more capable men,also there also stereotype and active process keep women out of fighting.So it makes sense if they where picking the best people for a combat they would be a strong likelihood the group would be all male.I never deny their is a unfair process but that does not change current reality they are so few elite women candidates that picking just because they are female would be unfair.That is the situation in Marvel and i prefer female candidate grown to so she deserve the spot with no question.I am not unfair in my belief i don't think Beast belongs on the New Avengers either and he going to suffer in characterization because he is not the same level.

  2. #587
    BUY LOKI: AGENT OF ASGARD Kieran_Frost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JaggedFel View Post
    Well if that is the way you want to see it fine. But the main point stands the lack of females and minority power brokers which is a requirement to being on the New Avengers cannot solely or even mostly be laid at the feet of Hickman. Although apparently he is adding a female.
    Rick though has basically no restrictions besides a character having either been in X-men or an Avenger in the past which is really not much of a restriction. That is not even counting his team getting compared to the NAACP and suppose to be promoting tolerance and diversity. Although of course now how much of it is his fault is in doubt thanks to revelations of said character blocking.
    Okay, explain to me this: why do you rail against "diversity issues" in Young Avengers so much, yet happily DEFEND the least diverse Avengers comic in Marvel NOW??? Why have you numerous times attacked a comic with two LGBT members, two women and one racial diversity... yet a team of all straight white men and ONE black guy... gets a pass? Why are you so happy to accept Hickman "is just following Marvel orders" and happy say it's Marvel NOT Hickman's fault that their is no power-playing-women... AND YET... when told Remender wanted to (BUT COULDN'T) use Storm or Doctor Voodoo... when told Gillen wanted to use Eli BUT COULDN'T (because of Marvel) you don't accept that as readily as you accept Hickman just "using the Illuminati someone set up." Hickman could have easily have MADE Brand a power-player by... hmmmm... let me think: INCLUDING HER IN THE ILUMINATI!!! (that would be a pretty good way to deal with Marvel's "supposed" lack of female power-players; one would think). He didn't!!! Gillen wanted to use Eli. He couldn't. Remender wanted to use Storm and Doctor Voodoo. He couldn't. Hickman could have used Agent Brand... and didn't. And yet you let him have pass, but not the others???

    QUOTES BY JAGGED FEL ON THE INCREDIBLY DIVERSE YOUNG AVENGERS:
    • "On gender and LGBT representation sure. On racial diversity no."
    • "Oh please don't give me that bs that aliens and fictional gods count for Diversity. Miss America she counts yes. Kid Loki is white. Noh Varr is White. Teddy is white. Just like Superman is white. Where have I ever said only blacks count for racial diversity? I just see a massive decline after Avengers Academy on the racial diversity front. Well also gender."
    • "I have got a problem with the black guy and the latina female being interchangeable. Not sure what your saying I was not even posting on this site when YA first came out. Yeah it was not that diverse but since then we have gotten New X-men, Avengers Academy and Generation Hope. So on gender and race this book is a step back.
    • Never said they are. Eli is a founding member who is missing which is kinda significant. Especially considering he is black listed for some reason that blocked Gillen which I should note is the only reason MAC is present."


    Explain to me why you attack one of the most diverse Avengers comic in Marvel NOW! while defending and happily accepting "the situation" with the LEAST diverse Avengers comic in Marvel NOW! Why do you attack one so much, yet proudly defend the other??? Why do you give New Avengers a pass, but not Young Avengers? What does New Avengers have that make you consider it worth defending, and what does Young Avengers lack that makes it worth attacking... and what does that say about YOU as a person who considers himself supportive of diversity?


    Quote Originally Posted by Luck911 View Post
    I know you think that White diversity is equal to racial diversity but most people don't feel the same way
    I think diversity is diversity... because it is! I think women and LGBT comic characters are a minority just as much as characters of racial minority. One minority doesn't trump the other... it's pretty disturbing (for want of a better word) if anyone thinks otherwise.
    Last edited by Kieran_Frost; 11-20-2012 at 01:33 PM.
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  3. #588
    BUY LOKI: AGENT OF ASGARD Kieran_Frost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Free-Man View Post
    As loathe as I am to step into one of these diversity arguments, I think what needs to be acknowledged is there's more than one type of diversity. Diversity doesn't just equal = black people.
    Thank-you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Free-Man View Post
    Yes, it's awesome that Black Panther is back to a prominent role, and yes it's cool a black dude is running the New Avengers, but that doesn't automatically mean that it's still not a little crappy that (at least as of right now) there are no women on the team. Ideally we'd have teams with women AND non-white heroes on them.
    100% agreed! And I am soooo excited to see Hickman write T'Challa and Namor as EPIC warriors and leaders!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Free-Man View Post
    This just reminds me of the clusterf*ck someone started in the Young Avengers thread where they basically tried to insinuate Ms. America doesn't count as any sort of diversity because she's not a black character, which is utterly ridiculous.
    It's worse than that, sadly... someone actually said "this team is not diverse" just because Eli was gone. A team with TWO LGBT, TWO women, and ONE racial minority is "not diverse".

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Kamikaze10 View Post
    I keep asking this.
    WHO are the people who think diversity = black people? I keep hearing this mantra, but don't see it in action. I'm thinking it's assumptions being made to shut up this discussion.
    There are sadly more posters who follow that mantra than you think...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rheged View Post
    He just told you. In the Young Avengers thread. I don't know what you've been reading, but I see it all the time when the diversity question comes up. Heck, when the Young Avengers was announced, you had idiots whining about it not being a diverse team!
    A team with one minority and LGBTS IS diverse and many times the person saying it isn't is complaining about the lack of black males.
    BOTH great points!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rheged View Post
    It's a lousy guess if you've been reading the Illuminati and Avengers. Cap is already an Illuminati member. His shield on the cover seems to suggest he's leaving the Illuminati, and his place will be taken by a new member -- perhaps either Black Panther or Beast, if they haven't joined yet.
    And Black Panther thought it was a terrible idea for form the group... things change...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rheged View Post
    As far as diversity ... you have to remember, not only is it a group that was inherited by Hickman, but it's one that at this point defines it's "membership" by WHO has an Infinity Gem.
    Xavier's is up for grabs... if Beast has it, is it REALLY so hard for Hickman to write a believable scene where Beast gives it to his partner, because his plate is full running a school and he's decried secret groups for years?
    "I don't know how to please you Lord, but I think the fact I try to please you, pleases you."

  4. #589
    Veteran Member JaggedFel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vic Vega View Post
    This wasn't even a diversity argument to start out with.

    It was a "Havok-sucks/is gonna be a puppet-he-shouldn't-lead-argument" with a side order of "how-dare-Cap-start-an-mutant-team".

    There have been one or two posts about diversity in a thread that is mainly about how much Havok sucks/is unfit to be a leader.

    It's like the 90's XFactor book never happened.
    Its the 90s nothing counts from the 90s in the Marvel U. Its a black hole.
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  5. #590
    Veteran Member JaggedFel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    Okay, explain to me this: why do you rail against "diversity issues" in Young Avengers so much, yet happily DEFEND the least diverse Avengers comic in Marvel NOW??? Why have you numerous times attacked a comic with two LGBT members, two women and one racial diversity... yet a team of all straight white men and ONE black guy... gets a pass? Why are you so happy to accept Hickman "is just following Marvel orders" and happy say it's Marvel NOT Hickman's fault that their is no power-playing-women... AND YET... when told Remender wanted to (BUT COULDN'T) use Storm or Doctor Voodoo... when told Gillen wanted to use Eli BUT COULDN'T (because of Marvel) you don't accept that as readily as you accept Hickman just "using the Illuminati someone set up." Hickman could have easily have MADE Brand a power-player by... hmmmm... let me think: INCLUDING HER IN THE ILUMINATI!!! (that would be a pretty good way to deal with Marvel's "supposed" lack of female power-players; one would think). He didn't!!! Gillen wanted to use Eli. He couldn't. Remender wanted to use Storm and Doctor Voodoo. He couldn't. Hickman could have used Agent Brand... and didn't. And yet you let him have pass, but not the others???

    QUOTES BY JAGGED FEL ON THE INCREDIBLY DIVERSE YOUNG AVENGERS:
    • "On gender and LGBT representation sure. On racial diversity no."
    • "Oh please don't give me that bs that aliens and fictional gods count for Diversity. Miss America she counts yes. Kid Loki is white. Noh Varr is White. Teddy is white. Just like Superman is white. Where have I ever said only blacks count for racial diversity? I just see a massive decline after Avengers Academy on the racial diversity front. Well also gender."
    • "I have got a problem with the black guy and the latina female being interchangeable. Not sure what your saying I was not even posting on this site when YA first came out. Yeah it was not that diverse but since then we have gotten New X-men, Avengers Academy and Generation Hope. So on gender and race this book is a step back.
    • Never said they are. Eli is a founding member who is missing which is kinda significant. Especially considering he is black listed for some reason that blocked Gillen which I should note is the only reason MAC is present."


    Explain to me why you attack one of the most diverse Avengers comic in Marvel NOW! while defending and happily accepting "the situation" with the LEAST diverse Avengers comic in Marvel NOW! Why do you attack one so much, yet proudly defend the other??? Why do you give New Avengers a pass, but not Young Avengers? What does New Avengers have that make you consider it worth defending, and what does Young Avengers lack that makes it worth attacking... and what does that say about YOU as a person who considers himself supportive of diversity?



    I think diversity is diversity... because it is! I think women and LGBT comic characters are a minority just as much as characters of racial minority. One minority doesn't trump the other... it's pretty disturbing (for want of a better word) if anyone thinks otherwise.
    Yeah its good in 2 of 3 categories. Well to be fair Rick getting blocked is a more recent revelation and what set me off again is the comparison to the NAACP. Yeah I think Hickman should have put Brand on the team. Although whether you can count her as mutant rep is debabtable not to mention membership also includes who has an Infinity Gem. Lets just Xavier is not going to give one to Brand. Still I feel I am just repeating will break down below.

    1. Its true out of 6, they have one minority.
    2. Yeah I am going stand by the argument that in no way do I consider white passing aliens or gods to be minorities. They are all white in my book. Sure you can make a case for Teddy he is a shapeshifter after all but his default form and the form he spent most of his life possessing as is a white male. So if Alien looks white I view them as white. Look black well they count as black. Look blue well don't count as anything because blue humans don't exist in the real world.
    3. Not sure what the problem is we only got MAC because Eli got blocked. And it is a step back from series we have got since Young Avengers first came out.
    4. Yeah I find it pretty significant when a founding member is blacklisted.

    I have happily opposed Uncanny Avengers.
    1. Why is only founding member who is blacklisted the black character? Gillen wanted him and got denied why it happen. Although that is more editorial annoyance.
    2. Different roster requirements. I have said it 100 times the New Avengers has major roster restrictions that are not related to just one writer or editors. Marvel lacks females in prominent positions. Uncanny Avengers and Young Avengers have pretty open roster choices by comparison. YA basically any teen. UA have to have been an Avenger or X-men in the past.
    3. Teen Books tend to knock diversity out of the park and I think this a decline from Generation Hope (50% Female and 50% POC) and Avengers Academy (5F to 3M, 2 LGBTS and 50% POC). Although I suppose most of the minorities getting sent to be killed in Avengers Arena really annoys me as well. Although again editorial. So yeah Young Avengers is better then the other Avenger teams but I hold teen books to a higher standard and its kinda of lacking on that front.

    I don't think they trump each other but just because a team is diverse in one column does not mean its not lacking in another.
    Last edited by JaggedFel; 11-20-2012 at 02:34 PM.
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  6. #591
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    Y'know what, the X-fans are right. Cap is using Havok as puppet just to pretend to the mutant public they care.
    Then, pretty soon Havok finds out and starts another X-men vs Avengers breaking up this garbage of a concept.
    Peace, unity, between the two please thats a laugh not for either teams. They'll always remain
    separate to their own devices. Avengers with the Marvel U and the X-men doing their service to help and protect mutants and fight evil governments. They way it was meant to be.

  7. #592
    Veteran Member JaggedFel's Avatar
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    I doubt it Marvel never admits a concept fails. If it does they push it harder.
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  8. #593
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    Quote Originally Posted by JaggedFel View Post
    I doubt it Marvel never admits a concept fails. If it does they push it harder.
    They got rid of the Initiative concept.
    This one will be just the same. Peaceful start, conflicting interest, and soon break up.
    Back to the status quo with the X-men staying on side and Avengers the other.
    It will happen soon enough.

  9. #594
    Veteran Member JaggedFel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tigerkaya View Post
    They got rid of the Initiative concept.
    This one will be just the same. Peaceful start, conflicting interest, and soon break up.
    Back to the status quo with the X-men staying on side and Avengers the other.
    It will happen soon enough.
    It will probably happen but more so do the cylicical nature of comics.

    Still to justify my point see the case of Alpha how precisely does he get rewarded with a mini series. Sure some say give the teen a chance but the one teen who pretty much everyone would love to see die horribly in a series like Arena gets rewarded while others are sent off to die. Of course, now they are walking back there kill fest comic.
    Last edited by JaggedFel; 11-20-2012 at 02:56 PM.
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  10. #595
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    Quote Originally Posted by albone View Post
    Yeah, Havok and Wolverine had that whole Meltdown miniseries and Rogue and Wolverine spent time on the run together.
    Wolverine is Captain America's bitch, now. It wouldn't take second for him to choose Cap over Havok.
    Rogue is the only member of that team who isn't part of the Steve Rodgers church but she's, at best, indiferent about Havok.
    He's a puppet.

  11. #596
    Veteran Member JaggedFel's Avatar
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    I just love how this thread oscillates from Havok Sucks and is a Puppet to Diversity Debates back to Havok sucks.
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  12. #597
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    Quote Originally Posted by JaggedFel View Post
    It will probably happen but more so do the cylicical nature of comics.

    Still to justify my point see the case of Alpha how precisely does he get rewarded with a mini series. Sure some say give the teen a chance but the one teen who pretty much everyone would love to see die horribly in a series like Arena gets rewarded while others are sent off to die. Of course, now they are walking back there kill fist comics.
    I look forward to that day when a cynical break up happens between the two teams.

    Oh Alpha, why couldn't you just be killed off by Jackal.
    Many of those teens had a better shot of a mini than him.
    But I confess I have accepted Marvels nature of cynicism
    to its comic brand and I embrace there cynicism.

  13. #598
    Veteran Member JaggedFel's Avatar
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    True from a business perspective its obvious why marvel does most of what they do except not giving a certain writer the proper head start.
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  14. #599
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    Okay, explain to me this: why do you rail against "diversity issues" in Young Avengers so much, yet happily DEFEND the least diverse Avengers comic in Marvel NOW??? Why have you numerous times attacked a comic with two LGBT members, two women and one racial diversity... yet a team of all straight white men and ONE black guy... gets a pass? Why are you so happy to accept Hickman "is just following Marvel orders" and happy say it's Marvel NOT Hickman's fault that their is no power-playing-women... AND YET... when told Remender wanted to (BUT COULDN'T) use Storm or Doctor Voodoo... when told Gillen wanted to use Eli BUT COULDN'T (because of Marvel) you don't accept that as readily as you accept Hickman just "using the Illuminati someone set up." Hickman could have easily have MADE Brand a power-player by... hmmmm... let me think: INCLUDING HER IN THE ILUMINATI!!! (that would be a pretty good way to deal with Marvel's "supposed" lack of female power-players; one would think). He didn't!!! Gillen wanted to use Eli. He couldn't. Remender wanted to use Storm and Doctor Voodoo. He couldn't. Hickman could have used Agent Brand... and didn't. And yet you let him have pass, but not the others???

    QUOTES BY JAGGED FEL ON THE INCREDIBLY DIVERSE YOUNG AVENGERS:
    • "On gender and LGBT representation sure. On racial diversity no."
    • "Oh please don't give me that bs that aliens and fictional gods count for Diversity. Miss America she counts yes. Kid Loki is white. Noh Varr is White. Teddy is white. Just like Superman is white. Where have I ever said only blacks count for racial diversity? I just see a massive decline after Avengers Academy on the racial diversity front. Well also gender."
    • "I have got a problem with the black guy and the latina female being interchangeable. Not sure what your saying I was not even posting on this site when YA first came out. Yeah it was not that diverse but since then we have gotten New X-men, Avengers Academy and Generation Hope. So on gender and race this book is a step back.
    • Never said they are. Eli is a founding member who is missing which is kinda significant. Especially considering he is black listed for some reason that blocked Gillen which I should note is the only reason MAC is present."


    Explain to me why you attack one of the most diverse Avengers comic in Marvel NOW! while defending and happily accepting "the situation" with the LEAST diverse Avengers comic in Marvel NOW! Why do you attack one so much, yet proudly defend the other??? Why do you give New Avengers a pass, but not Young Avengers? What does New Avengers have that make you consider it worth defending, and what does Young Avengers lack that makes it worth attacking... and what does that say about YOU as a person who considers himself supportive of diversity?



    I think diversity is diversity... because it is! I think women and LGBT comic characters are a minority just as much as characters of racial minority. One minority doesn't trump the other... it's pretty disturbing (for want of a better word) if anyone thinks otherwise.
    It's pretty hilarious, in a very sad way. When people wonder why people keep saying "black dudes don't equal diversity" it's posts like that which are the reason why. It's not people "trying to shut the discussion down" (lol no)

    It's that people are trying to DEFEND Hickman because (insert a number of nonsensical reasons right here.) You think Hickman, who is writing THE TWO MAIN AVENGERS BOOKS has less pull on who gets to be on his team than Remender? You think Marvel actually is the one who said, "Hey, let's make the New Avengers all about the aborted plot of the Illumanti and all this other nonsense. Yes, Hickman, you are ONLY ALLOWED ONE DIVERSITY SLOT ON YOUR ENTIRE TEAM. If you want, you can toss in a woman, as long as you NEVER MENTION HER IN ANY INTERVIEW AND OTHERWISE MAKE IT IMPORTANT THAT SHE DOES'NT MATTER AT ALL."

    But hey, Remender got everything he wanted, right? Even though he's said that he was denied characters that he wanted to use?

    And hey, that Young Avengers team should TOTALLY have done better, because I'm sure Kieron G got to use all the characters he wanted - oh, that's right, no he's said otherwise. And lol, it's not like having gay, women, and female POC characters are diverse at all! (Hint: Yes, it is. Much more diverse than T'Challa. In every way.)

    The idea that Hickman is just pure and great in intention (lol, because T'Challa is there) and people have to make up reasons to justify a crap attempt at "diversity" on the New Avengers team, while ALSO crying about a team that is more diverse than any of the main Avengers books, is pretty hilarious.

    New Avengers is a crap lineup, and if you defend it while ALSO pretending that you care about diversity, the only logical conclusion is that a.) you don't actually give a crap about diversity or b.) your idea of "diversity" is straight black dudes.

    Racial diversity is important, but if you only care about there being black dudes on the team and you don't care about women (of any racial identity or ethnicity) or LGBT being there, get out of the diversity conversation, because your opinions on it do not matter. It's not 1960 anymore, you need to join the 21st century or just get out already.

  15. #600
    Veteran Member JaggedFel's Avatar
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    So we have all agreed that we are opposed to editorial blocking of characters, correct?
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