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  1. #16
    Elder Member Mat001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Clark View Post
    Because Batman is not Luthor.

    1) Lex is evil- he will kill Superman, in fact that is his goal.
    Batman is good- he might have a reason to stop Superman from taking an action, but killing is not in Batman's bag-of-tricks. Ask the Joker if you don't agree with that.
    However, in Post Crisis continuity, Clark made Bruce promise to kill him. Bruce came up with different scenarios on how to stop him and subsequent Kryptonians. So it's not like Bruce won't kill him if he has to. He'll just make sure that if he has no other choice, then he'll go for it.

    2)Luthor is a genius. Einstein, Hawking, Da Vinci... dunces in comparison. Batman might challenge Lex at chess, but in the lab Batman would still be trying to light his bunsen buner while Lex had built a transdimensional space-time viewscreen out of a bathroom mirror, some aspirin and a razor blade. When trying to beat an alien who survives supernovas, a fancy boomerang and a bad attitude are trumped by an understanding of quantum physics.
    Bruce is no slouch. He built just as many Kryptonian weapons to fight them off as Lex did. And whatever Bruce didn't come up with, he had someone who was more knowledgeable do it for him.

    3)Lex exists to kill Superman. It's what he wakes up planning each day and his last thought before drifting off to sleep. All the genius in #2 is focused only on this goal. Batman spends his life trying to defeat multiple opponents- his attention is not fixated on any one of them. In short even if they had the same resources Lex devotes them all to one goal, Batman doesn't so his resources left to defeat Superman would be less.
    Even Lex has failed to get the job done, despite all the time spent on it. So long term prep time isn't the solution.

    4)Lex has yet to succeed. I'll give Lex the nod between him and Batman as having the better chance to defeat Superman. That chance is like 1 in a gazillion, but it's still better than Batman's chances unless you remake Batman into a Superman-obsessed villian.
    Again, Bruce went through the same steps to take down Clark than Lex has. Both had access to Kryptonite. Both studied the effects of the red sun on Clark. Both even built weapons.

    Quote Originally Posted by The DarkNut
    Personally, I've never seen the magic of a Batman vs. Superman idea. To me, there allies and both represent different idea's and belief's with fighting crimes.
    They are allies, but in previous continuity, Clark had done some stuff that truly scared himself. So much so that when Clark got a hold of Lex's Kryptonite ring, he gave it to Bruce to use on him, if he ever went rogue. It was a sign of trust on Clark's behalf. That after several years and some tense moments, he was willing to let Bruce be the one to pull the trigger. This is what lead to Bruce creating the JLA protocols and subsequently Brother Eye.

  2. #17
    Swordsman Supreme R0NIN's Avatar
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    Because when you pose that question the idea that comes to mind is a fight between Superman and Batman/Luthor. Luthor rarely actually fights Superman. He has others do it or sets a trap or has crazy advanced robots or whatever do it. Also Luthor is Superman's main villain for more reasons than as a physical threat to Superman. He's Superman's foil because he represent the notion of corrupt power. Luthor's power and intellect allow him to escape incarceration by Superman frequently. He foils Superman in mutliple way other than just trying to "beat Superman up'.
    I like swords.

  3. #18

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    For me it's pretty simple I look at what I see in Tech', Batman, Batman and Robin, ect vs what I see in Superman and Action Comics. Usually it's inconsistent with the portrayals of each character in their own titles.

  4. #19
    Senior Member Luck911's Avatar
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    The real question is why does batman keep his powersuits or massive upgrades for example Dark Knight returns suit,Batman Insider suit,Batman Beyond,Kingdom come suit,etc.In almost alternate reality Batman is shown capable of building suits even in the reality he had the insider suit.Here is the Ugly truth Batman is actually Iron Man but DC wants Batman to always remain street level.

    Luthor gets to use his powersuits when he really to challenge Superman,Batman normally gets a Kyrptonite ring or something.Which is why Batman is never seen at the same threat as luthor.

  5. #20
    Ghost of Perdition Nocturnus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luck911 View Post
    The real question is why does batman keep his powersuits or massive upgrades for example Dark Knight returns suit,Batman Insider suit,Batman Beyond,Kingdom come suit,etc.In almost alternate reality Batman is shown capable of building suits even in the reality he had the insider suit.Here is the Ugly truth Batman is actually Iron Man but DC wants Batman to always remain street level.

    Luthor gets to use his powersuits when he really to challenge Superman,Batman normally gets a Kyrptonite ring or something.Which is why Batman is never seen at the same threat as luthor.
    I'm sorry but Batman in Ironman's suit logically can't do jack to Supes. But then neither would a kryptonite ring. Unless ofcourse it's Batman.

  6. #21
    Elder Member Mat001's Avatar
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    You can also use the logic with Lex. He had that purple and green suit in the 70's and it did jack to Clark. Likewise when he upgrade to the armor, it gave him a bit of an edge, but then Clark managed to beat him despite it. The fact is that regardless of who it is, both are capable of being a threat to Superman. The thing is that the writers won't let them have that edge. We saw Superman beat Lex more than Lex beat Superman.

  7. #22
    Senior Member jackdaw53's Avatar
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    In standard versus threads.... where conditions usually stipulate both characters compete on fair terms (i.e. Batman is not going to be given months to compete, and then sandbag Superman who still believes Batman is an ally!)... then, of course, Superman will always win.

    But if Batman is given time to prepare... of course... he can potentially do as much damage as Lex.

    By the way, why on earth do so many people regard what happened in TDKR as a win for Batman? Not my favourite comic so I've never re-read it. But this is roughly what I think happened. Superman is weakened by a nuke blast. Batman calls him to a meet, having chained himself to a lamppost. Bats is wearing a big iron gauntlet hooked into Gotham's total electricity supply.

    Why Supes is wondering what's got into his chum this time, Batman hits him with the super charged gauntlet. Superman looks slightly dazed. Batman collapses.

    Really if that's a clear win for Batman... I'd love somebody to explain why!

  8. #23
    Elder Member Mat001's Avatar
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    Because it's not about the fight so much, but about the meaning. It was established in the series that the government began to worry about the role of the superheroes in the world. As a result, they were coming under pressure to retire or to do what Clark ultimately does, which is work for them. At the same time this starts happening, Bruce and Jason went out on their final mission which resulted in Jason's death and Bruce promising him that he'd retire. While all the heroes retired due to public pressure, Bruce only did it for personal reasons. Throughout the story, Bruce and Clark have to deal with the fact that a confrontation will come. Clark tries to get Bruce to understand that the time will come for it to happen and all Bruce can do is smile about it. When the fight comes, it is only because Clark knows that he will have to get involved in order to prevent Bruce from being killed. The government has gone after Bruce because they believe that he killed the Joker, which he didn't, but he cannot prove that. Not now. Likewise, Bruce is willing to fight Clark to make a point, which is that Clark let himself be used rather than standing up for what he once believed in, as he did at the start of his career. Bruce fights Clark because he wants to show the government that they cannot stop the will of the individual. That was a lesson that history has proven time and again. And for Bruce, this was his way of ending his career as Batman by faking his death. Going out on his terms, not the government's. When Bruce is done and has achieved his goals, he sets out to fight the government and crime through a different method.

  9. #24
    Senior Member jackdaw53's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mat001 View Post
    Because it's not about the fight so much.....
    Precisely. First up, Batman didn't win a fight.

    Second up. Batman didn't fool Superman. At the "funeral" Superman detected Batman's heartbeat.... and did nothing.... although he patently knew Batman was still alive! In other words, Superman either knew Batman was faking his death all along, and was part of the ruse all along. Or at very least found out about it pretty fast, and was happy to go along with it.

    Really... interpreting what happened as a "clear win" is way eccentric. But... its so rarely challenged as such that its now just about got the status of "official myth".

  10. #25
    Quickkill GM DiceRoll's Avatar
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    Couldn't the same be asked for Batman? I've seen several people say that Supes isn't a threat, but Joker and Bane are.

    And then there was the World's Finest.

  11. #26
    Elder Member Mat001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackdaw53 View Post
    Precisely. First up, Batman didn't win a fight.

    Second up. Batman didn't fool Superman. At the "funeral" Superman detected Batman's heartbeat.... and did nothing.... although he patently knew Batman was still alive! In other words, Superman either knew Batman was faking his death all along, and was part of the ruse all along. Or at very least found out about it pretty fast, and was happy to go along with it.
    Clark didn't know until the funeral. Bruce left a recording for Carrie in the Batmobile that would go off after the fight began, where Bruce told her what he had planned and what she had to do, since Clark would be too busy to focus. Thus when he heard Bruce's heart give out on him, Clark thought it was real. It wasn't until the heart beat started up again, as the drug wore off, that Clark realized what was going on.

    Really... interpreting what happened as a "clear win" is way eccentric. But... its so rarely challenged as such that its now just about got the status of "official myth".
    Not eccentric. Rather a misunderstanding and misinterpreting the whole conflict. Most that postulate that as a win do so because they only view it on the surface level. It's different from the other conflicts that transpired in later comics.

  12. #27
    Senior Member Luck911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocturnus View Post
    I'm sorry but Batman in Ironman's suit logically can't do jack to Supes. But then neither would a kryptonite ring. Unless ofcourse it's Batman.
    It is not matter of doing something,It is a start point,I am not debating if Batman wins a fight(Batman would never directly challenge superman to beat him) I am debating why like Lex is a seen as more of threat,It is because Lex battles in Powersuit which could take a punch from Superman while Batman start with ring on his finger and one hit from Superman should be game over.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Clark View Post
    Because Batman is not Luthor.

    1) Lex is evil- he will kill Superman, in fact that is his goal.
    Batman is good- he might have a reason to stop Superman from taking an action, but killing is not in Batman's bag-of-tricks. Ask the Joker if you don't agree with that.

    2)Luthor is a genius. Einstein, Hawking, Da Vinci... dunces in comparison. Batman might challenge Lex at chess, but in the lab Batman would still be trying to light his bunsen buner while Lex had built a transdimensional space-time viewscreen out of a bathroom mirror, some aspirin and a razor blade. When trying to beat an alien who survives supernovas, a fancy boomerang and a bad attitude are trumped by an understanding of quantum physics.

    3)Lex exists to kill Superman. It's what he wakes up planning each day and his last thought before drifting off to sleep. All the genius in #2 is focused only on this goal. Batman spends his life trying to defeat multiple opponents- his attention is not fixated on any one of them. In short even if they had the same resources Lex devotes them all to one goal, Batman doesn't so his resources left to defeat Superman would be less.

    4)Lex has yet to succeed. I'll give Lex the nod between him and Batman as having the better chance to defeat Superman. That chance is like 1 in a gazillion, but it's still better than Batman's chances unless you remake Batman into a Superman-obsessed villian.
    Partially agreed. His non disputed intellengence is shadowed by his superlative ego and his faulty point of view regarding power use. John Burne's SUPERMAN#2 is a great example

  14. #29
    Astral God Surtur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidgrantlloyd View Post
    I'd argue that ever since Dark Knight Returns, it's logical to assume that Batman can always be perceived as a potential threat to Superman ...
    It's logical to assume Batman is a threat to a Superman who has been weakened and isn't actively trying to kill him yes. A non-messing around Superman? Batman is dead/unconscious before he even processes a thought. I know some people are thinking "but prep time" but the problem is it would need to be strictly one sided prep time and even then it's hard to think of any tech Batman has in his cave that negates the speed advantage. In other words even if you try to stack the deck heavily in his favor by giving him prep time while not giving prep to Supes..victory still isn't guaranteed.

    As for Lex? To be fair to him some versions have access to tech that is superior to the tech Batman has access to in his Batcave. He also devotes time and a whole crapload of money to the specific task of fighting Superman while Batman does not. So it is no surprise to me people see Lex as more of a threat.
    Last edited by Surtur; 11-19-2012 at 09:52 AM.
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  15. #30
    Elder Member Mat001's Avatar
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    Which doesn't make sense because as the last continuity showed, Bruce's weapons actually worked. The synthetic Kryptonite in "Tower Of Babel" worked against Clark and the red sun watch had been developed by Bruce. While for Lex was the satellite that messed with Clark's powers and the weapons used against Zod and his crew. And to say that if you have to stack the deck in favor of Batman, then you have to with Lex as well.

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