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  1. #121

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ice Wolf View Post
    I'm explaining poorly, even though this Superboy is connected through being part Kryptonian, it's not the same kind of connection, in a sense his being so quickly tied into Kryptonian history cheapens it, they are telling rather than showing as it were, as if to say "look hes connected see".

    I actually like some of the concepts behind the DCnU Superboy. I like that they were playing up that he was created as weapon I just don't like some of the execution. Why no Cadmus? Why not Guardian instead of Rose? Why tie him into the Ravagers? I guess you could say it's missing the Kirbyness.
    None of that is inherently "Superman", though.

    I love the Kirby too, but Kirby's stuff didn't really play into "Superboy" outside of Kesel's run, and even there it was really only in Kesel's SECOND run that you saw much of it. Kesel's second run is EASILY the highlight for the character, along with Joe Kelly's short lived run (ugh, Marz and Didio/Palmiotti, horrible), but I wouldn't say it's parts and parcel with the Superboy concept by any stretch.

    I'm still not sure what you meant by the lack of connection to the Superman family.
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  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desaad View Post
    Eh? This Superboy, half Kryptonian, is more Superman related than the original previous iteration, who had no Kryptonian DNA in him at all. This one ALSO has racial memories from Krypton, an ability to speak Kryptonese, and is already being tied into Kryptonian history.

    What do you want, a complete sidekick?
    The original version was very much Superman related as his physiology, powers, and literal look was based on and modeled after Superman himself. He didn't need actual Kryptonian DNA as he was the literal recreation of a Kryptonian by other means and he didn't need "racial memories" because he was his own character. That was the whole point and the character had the legitimate connections needed for the character to be called "Superboy". His name, Kon-El, was an honored Kryptonian name and has legitimate ties to Superman's history that was far more meaningful than "evil clone cursed thing” insult name. And he was tied into Krypton's cloning history.
    Last edited by C-Dot; 11-20-2012 at 12:34 PM.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desaad View Post
    None of that is inherently "Superman", though.

    I love the Kirby too, but Kirby's stuff didn't really play into "Superboy" outside of Kesel's run, and even there it was really only in Kesel's SECOND run that you saw much of it. Kesel's second run is EASILY the highlight for the character, along with Joe Kelly's short lived run (ugh, Marz and Didio/Palmiotti, horrible), but I wouldn't say it's parts and parcel with the Superboy concept by any stretch.

    I'm still not sure what you meant by the lack of connection to the Superman family.
    But it is inherently "Superboy".

    He has always had Superman ties, but its about the character’s own mythos and not having Superman overshadow that. And the Kirbyness was definitely a part of it as Project Cadmus has always been a legitimate part of Superboy’s mythos from the very beginning and played a role. ALL of the runs from before Reign to Reign itself to both Kesel Superboy runs to Marz to Kelly to David to Didio all had Cadmus playing into it from background to characters to story to themes and many others. It's pretty much inaccurate to say that it was just Kesel's second run that has any focus on Cadmus. It always played into Superboy and it made perfect sense as Cadmus/The D.N.A. Project was a government agency devoted to genetic engineering. N.O.W.H.E.R.E. is nothing like Cadmus and comes off as Agenda-lite.
    Last edited by C-Dot; 11-20-2012 at 12:36 PM.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephens2177 View Post
    Yes i would get the book,NO its not well written as batman or GL,nor is the art that good,BUT superboy is a wonderfully complex and cool character.i do think he needs to do more than walk the streets with bunker,then straight into a fight with someone who surprises him,then right into a crossover.he needs a bigger yard to play kn,with bigger threats,and more power feats.
    I would get Superboy #14 as that's where this really big crossover to explode, and I think this will be a good Epic crossover to as the whole Superfamily is in this. It will be very interesting what Kara will do, and how Supes takes in Superboy, as his body gets torn to shreds be H'El, and mentions a 3rd party to Superbogys Genes, that we still don't know who it is. Yes I think SB is good, even though I think he should have some Kryptonian powers to.Oh get the latest legion Lost #14 that happens before H'El shreds SB, as we find that the guy that was incharge of NOWHERE has a trigger in Superboys brain, that will unleash all, if not most of Superboys power. Also SB will be in Legion Lost also in #15 and #16 for seeing more of how powerful SB may just be as well and in the Superboy current crossover as well. I'd say buy it.
    Last edited by Warrior10; 11-20-2012 at 12:44 PM.

  5. #125
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    Sorry I meant Legion Lost #14-#16, I think it will be interesting even though it's not part of all of current crossover with exception of Legion Lost #14.

  6. #126

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    Quote Originally Posted by C-Dot View Post
    But it is inherently "Superboy".

    He has always had Superman ties, but its about the character’s own mythos and not having Superman overshadow that. And the Kirbyness was definitely a part of it as Project Cadmus has always been a legitimate part of Superboy’s mythos from the very beginning and played a role.
    It's where he was created, certainly, but the beginning of his run was far more concerned with more typical superhero tales, sticking him in Hawaii, etc. The Kirby-factor wasn't nearly as strong in the Superman books as it was in Kesel's second run. The truth is that Cadmus wasn't a big part of Superboy's book for MOST of it, and that's okay.

    I enjoyed Cadmus, mind, and wouldn't have minded seeing a return, but that has nothing to do with being more closely associated to the Superman franchise. If we are going to that well, then this Sueprboy is FAR more closely associated than the previous version was upon introduction.

    ALL of the runs from before Reign to Reign itself to both Kesel Superboy runs to Marz to Kelly to David to Didio all had Cadmus playing into it from background to characters to story to themes and many others.
    Other than Kesel's second run, much of that was really lip service. The Kirby aesthetic wasn't there nearly as much.


    It's pretty much inaccurate to say that it was just Kesel's second run that has any focus on Cadmus.
    The Kirby-esque Cadmus? No, I'd say it's pretty accurate.


    It always played into Superboy and it made perfect sense as Cadmus/The D.N.A. Project was a government agency devoted to genetic engineering. N.O.W.H.E.R.E. is nothing like Cadmus and comes off as Agenda-lite.
    None of this has anything to do with what we ere discussing originally, of course, which was the complaint that the character was not tied tightly enough to Superman.
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  7. #127
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    I really liked the fight between H'EL & Superboy in the subway. Can't wait to see what H'EL does with Superboy & what he will do in Supergirl #14
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  8. #128
    Junior Member Zoch's Avatar
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    I thought this was good issue the action was top notch and what He'll did Superboy was gruesome, also He'll seems have telekinesis like Kon with green energy swirl around him pretty much knocked the titans around like their nothing to him as well beating up Superboy without breaking a sweat so he definitely powerful one thing He'll says that he sense two DNA in Kon that both Kryptonian and Human I hope the third donor plot isn't dropped but then I thinking about it and He'll could be the third donor he has same power as Kon I also think that He'll could also be a clone but doesn't know that he is one which could tie He'll and Kon together and in way making Kon more Kryptonian I thought the dialogue was good saw nothing wrong with it and the art was good as always overall thought this was a good issue.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desaad View Post
    It's where he was created, certainly, but the beginning of his run was far more concerned with more typical superhero tales, sticking him in Hawaii, etc. The Kirby-factor wasn't nearly as strong in the Superman books as it was in Kesel's second run. The truth is that Cadmus wasn't a big part of Superboy's book for MOST of it, and that's okay.
    The beginning of the series had Superboy in his first crossover since Reign dealing with Project Cadmus as they were in a war with Lexcorp over the clone plague shown in those early Superboy books. They were definitely around as Dubbilex was placed in charge of monitoring Superboy by Cadmus and reported to Guardian. They were a focus in several Superboy books such as the zero issue, Annual #2, One Million, etc. And as far as Cadmus not being "big part", did you not read the issues in Kelly's run that still had Superboy as an agent of Cadmus picking up right where Kesel left off? Or the issues in Marz run with Cadmus there during the Meltdown arc? Or in Didio's run when you saw an Elseworlds type story with Cadmus in the book? Or even issues in other books like Superboy Vs.? He was an agent of Project Cadmus from issue #55 well into the #90s. The Cadmus connection was far lesser once the status quo changed in Didio's run and Cadmus was seized. But even then, characters associated with Cadmus like Dubbilex was still around. The Young Justice books had Cadmus there and even contained unrevealed elements of Superboy in the Barbara Kesel penned specials. Even the Adventures in the DCU comic based on the animated universe had Cadmus there in Superboy stories. I'm sorry but Cadmus has always been there in some shape and form in a way that can't be downplayed. More than just the place that he was created. I read the entire run and issues involving the character to know that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Desaad View Post
    I enjoyed Cadmus, mind, and wouldn't have minded seeing a return, but that has nothing to do with being more closely associated to the Superman franchise. If we are going to that well, then this Sueprboy is FAR more closely associated than the previous version was upon introduction.
    Cadmus has been around the Superman books for a very long time even before Superboy was even created. The whole point of them even being in the story that created Superboy from Death onwards was because of the ties they had with Superman. It was deliberately done. Superboy has always been closely associated with the Superman books and the previous version did not have a "lesser connection" to the Superman franchise at all. He did not have to be a literal clone to have that tie and if you read the books, it showed that. But the character had his own identity, his own themes, his own history, and own niche while being associated in a major way. Cadmus is a part of his own mythos and played a big role in Superboy to the point that even other recent media had him as a product of Cadmus despite differences from source material. And even though they are a part of the Superboy mythos, they have more ties to Superman than N.O.W.H.E.R.E. ever did and all the other things introduced. I rather see him with his own mythos than removing what made him unique to begin with and supplanting it with things that are not his own. All you stated that made him "more closely associated" just makes him more about Superman and his "genetic memories" than Superboy himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Desaad View Post
    Other than Kesel's second run, much of that was really lip service. The Kirby aesthetic wasn't there nearly as much.
    As far as the outrageous Kirbyverse science themes goes, it was there post-Marz. But Cadmus as a whole? Always been there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Desaad View Post
    The Kirby-esque Cadmus? No, I'd say it's pretty accurate.
    We're talking the whole of Cadmus and not just the increase of Kirby themes that were amped up in Kesel and Grummett's 2nd run. Amped up Kirby science or not, Cadmus is still a Kirby creation and had that link. Characters associated with Cadmus have always been in those books and had that link.

    Quote Originally Posted by Desaad View Post
    None of this has anything to do with what we ere discussing originally, of course, which was the complaint that the character was not tied tightly enough to Superman.
    The dude said "Why no Cadmus? Why not Guardian instead of Rose? Why tie him into the Ravagers? I guess you could say it's missing the Kirbyness.". He metioned the absence of Cadmus and the concepts that were a part of Superboy's mythos. All of what was stated = part of the discussion.
    Last edited by C-Dot; 11-22-2012 at 06:08 AM.

  10. #130
    Junior Member Ice Wolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by C-Dot View Post
    The dude said "Why no Cadmus? Why not Guardian instead of Rose? Why tie him into the Ravagers? I guess you could say it's missing the Kirbyness.". He metioned the absence of Cadmus and the concepts that were a part of Superboy's mythos. All of what was stated = part of the discussion.
    Yeah I meant the Kirby concepts not the more overt Super-Kirbyness of the 2nd Kesel run. They didn't need to go to the levels of Kirby homage that Kesel went with his second run, but the modern Superboy had significant ties to Kirby concepts in his creation and that is something that is missed with the new Superboy and the homages to the old Superboy like the name Kon-El are missing the heart that came with the originals.

  11. #131

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    Quote Originally Posted by C-Dot View Post
    The beginning of the series had Superboy in his first crossover since Reign dealing with Project Cadmus as they were in a war with Lexcorp over the clone plague shown in those early Superboy books. They were definitely around as Dubbilex was placed in charge of monitoring Superboy by Cadmus and reported to Guardian. They were a focus in several Superboy books such as the zero issue, Annual #2, One Million, etc. And as far as Cadmus not being "big part", did you not read the issues in Kelly's run that still had Superboy as an agent of Cadmus picking up right where Kesel left off? Or the issues in Marz run with Cadmus there during the Meltdown arc? Or in Didio's run when you saw an Elseworlds type story with Cadmus in the book? Or even issues in other books like Superboy Vs.? He was an agent of Project Cadmus from issue #55 well into the #90s. The Cadmus connection was far lesser once the status quo changed in Didio's run and Cadmus was seized. But even then, characters associated with Cadmus like Dubbilex was still around. The Young Justice books had Cadmus there and even contained unrevealed elements of Superboy in the Barbara Kesel penned specials. Even the Adventures in the DCU comic based on the animated universe had Cadmus there in Superboy stories. I'm sorry but Cadmus has always been there in some shape and form in a way that can't be downplayed. More than just the place that he was created. I read the entire run and issues involving the character to know that.



    Cadmus has been around the Superman books for a very long time even before Superboy was even created. The whole point of them even being in the story that created Superboy from Death onwards was because of the ties they had with Superman. It was deliberately done. Superboy has always been closely associated with the Superman books and the previous version did not have a "lesser connection" to the Superman franchise at all. He did not have to be a literal clone to have that tie and if you read the books, it showed that. But the character had his own identity, his own themes, his own history, and own niche while being associated in a major way. Cadmus is a part of his own mythos and played a big role in Superboy to the point that even other recent media had him as a product of Cadmus despite differences from source material. And even though they are a part of the Superboy mythos, they have more ties to Superman than N.O.W.H.E.R.E. ever did and all the other things introduced. I rather see him with his own mythos than removing what made him unique to begin with and supplanting it with things that are not his own. All you stated that made him "more closely associated" just makes him more about Superman and his "genetic memories" than Superboy himself.



    As far as the outrageous Kirbyverse science themes goes, it was there post-Marz. But Cadmus as a whole? Always been there.



    We're talking the whole of Cadmus and not just the increase of Kirby themes that were amped up in Kesel and Grummett's 2nd run. Amped up Kirby science or not, Cadmus is still a Kirby creation and had that link. Characters associated with Cadmus have always been in those books and had that link.



    The dude said "Why no Cadmus? Why not Guardian instead of Rose? Why tie him into the Ravagers? I guess you could say it's missing the Kirbyness.". He metioned the absence of Cadmus and the concepts that were a part of Superboy's mythos. All of what was stated = part of the discussion.
    That, to me, is not having a serious part.

    If you're just using the name with none of the trappings that made it what it was, it's a superfluous inclusion. Nothing about the arc would have been better had "NOWHERE" been called "Cadmus", you know? That's a complete waste of potential.

    I'm much happier with it's inclusion in the Kirby-esque "OMAC" book.
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  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash Gordon View Post
    This is such a handy clip to have at the ready...

    Quote Originally Posted by Warrior10 View Post
    Desaad, my English is fine, but if u wanna lecture about how English has changed, then it Has changed about 4 times through history by Kings and Queens that i'm halfway related to. And You sure don't know anything about English because English changes every day by ppl, that makes up names that don't exist.

    look in the mirror when you want to see a person that can't do English right.
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