Another kiss by WW and Superman

[carabas]

So to move on another topic, what elements of nature do you think Clark and Diana represent?

Really very simple. Neither of them represent any element of nature at all.

I suppose if you really reach, Superman is a modernised sun god like Ra, Mithras and Apollo.

[Jabare]

oh yeah Kiss number 3. You go Supes and WW

[misslane38]

Still don't buy the argument that he's not helping people "in the way he wants to help people". With his reassignment, the absolute only thing he can't do now that he could as JL liasion is be around/be in contact with Diana. Which has absolutely nothing to do with his ability to help people and everything to do with personal feelings. When it comes to Steve's ability to help people through his job, there is absolutely nothing that this reassignment deprived him of in that regard. It makes absolutely no sense to me to claim Diana hindered that in any way. She does not have that ability, and its manufacturing more power than she has over him and A.R.G.U.S to try and claim so.

Steve wanted to be the League's liaison because he wanted to help ensure positive interactions between the team and the public. He liked his job and he did it well. Diana's decision to reassign Steve went against his own wishes; he did not consent to the reassignment and there were no reasonable grounds for dismissal. Because Diana got too emotionally attached to Steve -- feared for his safety -- she cowardly and patronizingly abused her power to push him far enough away to give her peace of mind.

[Sacred Knight]

In other words as JL liaison he tried to make sure the public thought best of the Justice League and vice versa. With the JLA he's actually going to be actively fighting on the front lines as a hero. Sounds like a no-brainer to me which actually can accomplish more in terms of helping people. Yes she was responsible for setting the motions of him reassigned, no he didn't want to be. None of that's debatable. But again if we're actually talking about his ability to help people now? In terms of doing his job and doing it well? That Diana hindered any of that is just a cop-out piling on in an attempt to make Diana look guilty of more than she actually is, rather as any sort of reasonable criticism of what she did to him. There's absolutely nothing within the pages to substantiate the idea that JL liaison was his ultimate goal in life and how he felt he could very best use his skills and serve the people of the world. To try and make it out otherwise is just hyperbole.

[superlantern1987]

Lol, she sure seems impatient to check how super he is in the sack.

Who wouldn't its Superman afterall.

[misslane38]

In other words as JL liaison he tried to make sure the public thought best of the Justice League and vice versa. With the JLA he's actually going to be actively fighting on the front lines as a hero. Sounds like a no-brainer to me which actually can accomplish more in terms of helping people. Yes she was responsible for setting the motions of him reassigned, no he didn't want to be. None of that's debatable. But again if we're actually talking about his ability to help people now? In terms of doing his job and doing it well? That Diana hindered any of that is just a cop-out piling on in an attempt to make Diana look guilty of more than she actually is, rather as any sort of reasonable criticism of what she did to him. There's absolutely nothing within the pages to substantiate the idea that JL liaison was his ultimate goal in life and how he felt he could very best use his skills and serve the people of the world. To try and make it out otherwise is just hyperbole.

Diana prevented Steve from helping people the way he wanted to help people. It doesn't matter whether or not he can continue to make a difference elsewhere; he was removed from a position he was performing well in and he wanted to keep because Diana couldn't handle the idea that he might get hurt. It is not hyperbolic -- it is a fact, actually -- that Diana got in the way of Steve helping people the way he wanted to help people. He did not consent to his reassignment, and there was no reasonable cause for his dismissal. The only reason Steve cannot save the world the way he wanted to save the world anymore is because Diana couldn't cope with Steve doing such a dangerous job.

[Sacred Knight]

No she didn't. You can say it till you're blue in the face but this has nothing to do with any so-called preferred method of helping people and you know it. Because from reading the book you know there is nothing, absolutely zilch, to textually suggest that when it comes to protecting and serving the people of his country, that this was the end all be all of his achievements and in his mind the absolute best way he could use his talents. NOTHING says that. The fact he just obviously didn't want to lose the position does not say those things. This whole helping people the way he wants to help people thing is just something you've made up on your own with no backing, simply to compound a sense of guilt on Diana's part. What's she going to be blamed for next? His decision to drink his troubles away before Ollie shows up?

[Nigel_Halsey]

oh yeah Kiss number 3. You go Supes and WW

Third time's the charm.

[hellacre]

Third time's the charm.

Cute how both their foot pop. :)

[brettc1]

My most favourite thing about Superman is that my wife never met him.

Third time's the charm.

[misslane38]

No she didn't. You can say it till you're blue in the face but this has nothing to do with any so-called preferred method of helping people and you know it. Because from reading the book you know there is nothing, absolutely zilch, to textually suggest that when it comes to protecting and serving the people of his country, that this was the end all be all of his achievements and in his mind the absolute best way he could use his talents. NOTHING says that. The fact he just obviously didn't want to lose the position does not say those things. This whole helping people the way he wants to help people thing is just something you've made up on your own with no backing, simply to compound a sense of guilt on Diana's part.

You can keep insisting Diana did not hinder Steve's ability to help people the way he wanted, but it won't change the fact that it happened. Steve still wanted to be the League's liaison because he believed it was important work and he enjoyed doing it, and the only reason he is no longer doing that job is because without Diana couldn't cope with her own fear and guilt. Ultimately, Steve chose to save the world in one particular way, but he was forced to stop doing it for reasons that had nothing to do with his job performance. Sure, he can save the world in other ways; perhaps even in ways that are equally fulfilling. Nonetheless, regaining a sense of purpose and contentment elsewhere will not alter reality: Steve was removed from a job he wanted because he believed in the mission even though he did nothing to deserve that sort of dismissal. Steve chose to help people one way, but his agency was ignored because Diana was a coward.

The most absurd aspect of this whole conversation is the fact that Diana pushed Steve away -- got him reassigned from a job he wanted -- to protect him. But, if he is to head up a new team that puts its members in harm's way, then what was the point? Why is Diana being characterized as someone who is too lost in her own emotions to realize that Steve will always put his life on the line to protect people? Because reassigning Steve does not actually protect Steve, Diana's patronizing decision is revealed as even more ridiculous and problematic. I mean, Cheetah is still going around threatening to harm Steve. What exactly did Diana accomplish by unilaterally reassigning Steve besides preventing him from saving the world in the way he had chosen to save the world? I'll tell you: she was only saving herself from feeling guilty.

What's she going to be blamed for next? His decision to drink his troubles away before Ollie shows up?

Ah, the beginnings of a straw man. Your hyperbolic hypotheticals are a ridiculous way of sidestepping.

Third time's the charm.

Second time.

[Sacred Knight]

What happened is that he had a position and lost it. A culmination of uncomfortable personal feelings on both sides that led him to losing a position that he otherwise did well. And that sucks, he got the short end of the stick on that one. Pretty sure I never denied that. Everything else is just you making stuff up, exaggeratingly psycho-analyzing the course of events to degrees that are never once suggested on the written page, just to make the whole situation more malicious than it really was, making it out that she callously stole all meaning in the man's life in this determination you have to make every single aspect of this Superman and Wonder Woman storyline downright taboo. Its beyond transparent at this point.

And sure, I'm sidestepping. Nevermind the fact that my hypberbolic statement came after I explained the fallacy and bias of your statements. I can't sidestep something that I've already confronted. In any case I'm just exhausted with this. Not pretending to take some sort of high road or anything, I've willfully engaged in the back and forth and contributed plenty in making too big a deal of this, but I need a break.

[thepenguin]

My most favourite thing about Superman is that my wife never met him.

And here I thought we were going to allow the sm/ww fans to enjoy their thread and kiss.

[brettc1]

And here I thought we were going to allow the sm/ww fans to enjoy their thread and kiss.

Sorry. I didnt realize there was restricted access to the discussion.

[misslane38]

What happened is that he had a position and lost it. A culmination of uncomfortable personal feelings on both sides that led him to losing a position that he otherwise did well. And that sucks, he got the short end of the stick on that one. Pretty sure I never denied that.

You keep denying there is something patronizing about an individual being denied the ability to help people in the way he chose to help people solely because Diana couldn't cope with her own emotions. You're right to say that Steve was also emotionally involved; however, Steve's emotional investment in his work was not impeding his ability to do that work. It was Diana who had to remove the cause of her emotional stress in order to function.

Everything else is just you making stuff up, exaggeratingly psycho-analyzing the course of events to degrees that are never once suggested on the written page, just to make the whole situation more malicious than it really was, making it out that she callously stole all meaning in the man's life in this determination you have to make every single aspect of this Superman and Wonder Woman storyline downright taboo. Its beyond transparent at this point.

You really do have a talent for hyperbole. I didn't say Diana stole all the meaning from Steve's life. All I've been saying is that she prevented him from saving the world in the way he chose to save the world because of her own cowardice. Steve wanted to help people by being the League's liaison, and Diana prevented him from doing that work because of her own issues. Can Steve find purpose and meaning elsewhere? Sure, he can. But that doesn't change the fact that Diana did not care about Steve's agency at all when she chose to patronizingly push him out of her life. It's beyond transparent to me that you cannot deal with any criticism of DC's new power couple.

And sure, I'm sidestepping. Nevermind the fact that my hypberbolic statement came after I explained the fallacy and bias of your statements. I can't sidestep something that I've already confronted.

You confronted nothing. You continue to refuse to acknowledge it was problematic for Diana to end Steve's tenure as the League's liaison -- a job he wanted to do and was doing well -- because of her own insecurities. Steve wanted to save the world by protecting the League from government control and public fear mongering. It wasn't always an easy job, but he still wanted to do it because he believed in the Justice League and its mission. He also cared for Diana. She cared for him, too. But Diana's idea of caring for Steve meant deciding by herself that he couldn't do his job anymore because she couldn't handle it. That's not okay. It's also nothing close to defending Steve for drinking away his troubles.

And here I thought we were going to allow the sm/ww fans to enjoy their thread and kiss.

As far as I know, this is a forum in which both positive and negative opinions can be expressed as long as they are expressed respectfully.