Another kiss by WW and Superman

[lariatofhestia]

What are your standards for a good, entertaining Superman and Wonder Woman story? What do you hope for? What do you like about this couple that you hope shines through in this Valentine's Day story? Are there any issues you would like to see addressed or things you would like these two characters to experience? I'm not asking you to judge, in other words, I'm asking you to speculate as I have done in this thread. The only judgments I've made have been based on stories that have already been written and published, namely Justice League #12 and #13 as well as Superman #1-13.

misslane, no offense, really don't wish to get into anything. I'm not going to speculate. I am fine with the direction of JL. I am fine with SM #13. It's way too early for me to make any concrete judgments on what has just started. As for the Anthology. It's suppose to be a Valentine Day Special. I expect some romance.

[lariatofhestia]

Superman's not unhappy being Clark Kent. If anything, the reboot has provided the right balance in terms of the escapism. Unlike pre-reboot, he doesn't show any regrets or reservations about his powers and being Superman, but at the same time it goes both ways and he appreciates the escapism that Clark Kent also provides for other reasons, such as anonymity, blending in, and most importantly his work, which he considers just as important as his being a superhero.

I think in fact that the writing is going out of its way, at least in Action and Superman, to drop the whole "what's the mask, Clark or Superman?" and establish that there is no mask.

This is I think true of most of the writers. They have all more of less said there is no mask in various interviews etc. That it is a fallacy to say one is or the other is not authentic. Both are. While Clark feels a little more alienated this time around, because the world has reacted to him differently etc he still is a kansas native and holds down a job, which he has left now.

[Gaelforce]

It's your call, of course, Gael. But the themes and issues do seem to be inexorably intertwined at the moment.

So long as there *is* intertwining of subjects, I'm good.

I just don't want to see the thread turn into 'do Superman and Lois belong together' thread to the exclusion of WW :)

[Sacred Knight]

Love this panel:

http://www.comicvine.com/doug-mahnke...k/105-2692556/

Diana's arched brow seems like she's saying "Oh yeah?"

And Superman replies "Its true, its true."

[brettc1]

So long as there *is* intertwining of subjects, I'm good.

I just don't want to see the thread turn into 'do Superman and Lois belong together' thread to the exclusion of WW :)

Good point, and an interesting challenge.

The real questions are as follows. In the DCU as is...

1. Could Superman and Wonder Woman be happy together?
2. Would there be serious negative consequences because of the relationship?

Personally I think the answer to both is yes.

And I have to say that the idea neither of these characters could go bad to serve a plot is naive in the current comic book climate. Nobody wants to see their character go off the rails, and 10 year ago if you said to a long term Iron Man fan that a story was coming that would turn their hero would turn into a facist they would have looked at you like you were an idiot. The same could be said of Cyclops.

No, these characters are not Superman. But writers like to push the boundaries.

And has been observed frequently long term happiness in comic books seems elusive. Spider-Man and Super-Man both had marriage issues and now their marriages have been made non-issues. And the relatioships almost always end badly. I'm nervous on how that will go.

Another thing I admit I am nervous aobut is that this relationship seems to be going to play out solely in Superman books and the Justice League. It feels a bit like Wonder Woman has been hijacked to serve another character's agenda. Azzarello can write about her loving everyone and he does put in some very good moment for her, but I have no idea what others have in mind - certainly not DC editorial. And there are some compicated scenarions, like the Amazon sex raids, that I think need to be resolved in Diana's own book. Or is this subject just not going to come up between two people who are supposedly forming a deeper connection.

It will be amusing when Diana has to rescue him from all those gods.

[Shadow Skill]

The probably I have with Lois and Superman, it makes Supes old fashioned and not realistic(even though supes himself isn't realistic) that he would spend all his life being a Human womans biggest tie to humanity.And through marriage at that, Diana however is more on Clarks concept of a more relateable confidant as far as super people with human like traits go. Lois is just way beyond Superman's realm of perspective, only a fellow demi god could relate to him. Plus I think it would be cruel since Lois will eventually die of old age if they get married and Clark will still be in his prime via wolverine.

[Outside_85]

The probably I have with Lois and Superman, it makes Supes old fashioned and not realistic(even though supes himself isn't realistic) that he would spend all his life being a Human womans biggest tie to humanity.And through marriage at that, Diana however is more on Clarks concept of a more relateable confidant as far as super people with human like traits go. Lois is just way beyond Superman's realm of perspective, only a fellow demi god could relate to him. Plus I think it would be cruel since Lois will eventually die of old age if they get married and Clark will still be in his prime via wolverine.

It is because Diana is not human either that others have said both of them risk loosing contact with the rest of humanity.

[misslane38]

The probably I have with Lois and Superman, it makes Supes old fashioned and not realistic(even though supes himself isn't realistic) that he would spend all his life being a Human womans biggest tie to humanity.

What is the connection between Superman facing his fears and trusting humans by not eschewing intimate relationship with them, including one in particular, have to do with being old fashioned? And I think you misspoke because no one argues that Superman is Lois Lane's biggest tie to humanity. Answer me via Private Message because the mod has instructed us to keep the discussion focused on Wonder Woman, and this topic has nothing to do with that.

And through marriage at that, Diana however is more on Clarks concept of a more relateable confidant as far as super people with human like traits go. Lois is just way beyond Superman's realm of perspective, only a fellow demi god could relate to him. Plus I think it would be cruel since Lois will eventually die of old age if they get married and Clark will still be in his prime via wolverine.

So by your own admission you think that Superman and Wonder Woman's relationship works because its basis is non-human things, like the belief that humans and superheroes from an Amazonian or Kryptonian background aren't equals and cannot truly relate or understand each other. You've basically just proven why it would be so powerful for Superman to bond with a human like Lois, and Diana with a human like Steve, for it would be a clear demonstration that they do not see themselves -- their hearts, souls, ideals -- as beyond human comprehension. Pointing out that Lois Lane would age unlike Diana is yet another example, because choosing a mate based on love alone and not on some misguided confidence in the future is more brave and more beautiful. It's the kind of decision humans make everyday because we really can never know if we're going to get injured or die tomorrow. Frankly, Superman and Wonder Woman would do well to remember that they themselves aren't guaranteed immortality either. What you are describing between Superman and Wonder Woman is a relationship based in fear, and that can never be true love.

[killercroc]

It is because Diana is not human either that others have said both of them risk loosing contact with the rest of humanity.

Which is utter nonesense. As others have said. You said risk. By an large both could be said to lose contact with humanity and heroics when they hook up with humans too. ie...there are stories where Superman goes evil...or cries like a baby for Lois because he can't go on etc etc or Diana becomes mortal and stops beign Wonder Woman. That these humans instead of teaching them something worthwhile like moving on and living which is a healthy HUMAN trait...makes them stunted . It is a huge paradox you are all arguing I think. Mixing up biology with emotion. This story is not even played out and I think even if Lois and Steve kicks the bucket as they should...no way Superman or Wonder Woman will turn evil, get isolated and not care for humanity, and only need humans to teach them to care.

It's pretty crappy way of looking at heroes who are selfless.

[killercroc]

What is the connection between Superman facing his fears and trusting humans by not eschewing intimate relationship with them, including one in particular, have to do with being old fashioned? And I think you misspoke because no one argues that Superman is Lois Lane's biggest tie to humanity. Answer me via Private Message because the mod has instructed us to keep the discussion focused on Wonder Woman, and this topic has nothing to do with that.



So by your own admission you think that Superman and Wonder Woman's relationship works because its basis is non-human things, like the belief that humans and superheroes from an Amazonian or Kryptonian background aren't equals and cannot truly relate or understand each other. You've basically just proven why it would be so powerful for Superman to bond with a human like Lois, and Diana with a human like Steve, for it would be a clear demonstration that they do not see themselves -- their hearts, souls, ideals -- as beyond human comprehension. Pointing out that Lois Lane would age unlike Diana is yet another example, because choosing a mate based on love alone and not on some misguided confidence in the future is more brave and more beautiful. It's the kind of decision humans make everyday because we really can never know if we're going to get injured or die tomorrow. Frankly, Superman and Wonder Woman would do well to remember that they themselves aren't guaranteed immortality either. What you are describing between Superman and Wonder Woman is a relationship based in fear, and that can never be true love.

How do you know what constitutes love? I can tell you I always thought Lois and Superman's relationship sicko. And Steve Trevor is a bit of an ass to be pressuring someone as naive as Wonder Woman. Glad she left him. Take that as you will.

[misslane38]

Which is utter nonesense. As others have said. You said risk. By an large both could be said to lose contact with humanity and heroics when they hook up with humans too. ie...there are stories where Superman goes evil...or cries like a baby for Lois because he can't go on etc etc or Diana becomes mortal and stops beign Wonder Woman. That these humans instead of teaching them something worthwhile like moving on and living which is a healthy HUMAN trait...makes them stunted . It is a huge paradox you are all arguing I think. Mixing up biology with emotion. This story is not even played out and I think even if Lois and Steve kicks the bucket as they should...no way Superman or Wonder Woman will turn evil, get isolated and not care for humanity, and only need humans to teach them to care.

Superman is rarely shown to react that way just because Lois dies. It's not the reason he left humanity in Kingdom Come and when he thought Manchester Black killed her in Ending Battle he didn't lose himself. You are mistaken, I think, to deem Lois the source of the problem. The truth is, Superman feels deeply and grieves deeply about anything he loves. If the love of his life was Diana, his grief response would be the same because losing someone is what hurts. Crying for a lost loved one isn't childish, as you suggest, it is natural. And for the last damn time, no one is arguing that being with humans teaches Superman and Wonder Woman to care. It is because they already care about humans that they are attracted to Steve and Lois and want to be with them. Indeed, what precipitated Diana's rejection of Steve and her kiss with Superman was Graves specifically throwing the pain of human loss in hers and Superman's faces. Graves made them feel or reminded them of the humans they could lose or have lost (e.g. the Kents, Steve) and their reaction wasn't to embrace loving people like that again despite the potential for grief. Rather, they connected with each other because of their genetically endowed superior physical invulnerability and the comfort that the other would understand and make them forget their cowardice.

To me, one of the best ways for Superman and Wonder Woman to appreciate humanity and their own humanity is to face what humans face everyday and that's the feeling of powerlessness, vulnerability, fear, and mortality. When they don't, they are not following their hearts and retreating into their superhero life because they're too scared to do otherwise. What happens when they don't follow their hearts, however, is they engage is self-denial and the part of themselves they are denying is the part that naturally loves humans. If they adopt the mindset that humans cannot relate to them and are too fragile to share their lives with them, then they are adopting a belief system that sees themselves as separate and superior. It may not make them evil, but it definitely doesn't make them heroes. Heroes live in hope. Heroes aren't cowards. Heroes would treat humans as equals and want them to join them in the sun; they wouldn't treat humans like children.

It's pretty crappy way of looking at heroes who are selfless.

To me, heroes who push humans away and a hero like Wonder Woman denying Steve Trevor the opportunity to act in the heroic manner he chose by getting him fired just because she didn't want to grieve him if he ever got hurt because of her is the epitome of selfishness. She didn't want to feel pain or feel guilt. Superman doesn't tell Lois he likes her for no other reason than he fears rejection. He has not expressed any concern for her safety, and why would he? Unlike Diana, Superman has a functioning secret identity. The only reason he'd have to fear Lois getting hurt because of his hero life is if that secret identity was compromised. Yet, if he's denying himself the love he wants out of fear of the remote possibility his secret identity will be discovered then he shouldn't bother with a secret identity at all or have friends at all, since he apparently has so little faith in his secret identity or his ability to handle any threats to it. Superman and Wonder Woman are making their decisions for themselves and others based on fear and on their selfish desire to avoid facing those fears.

How do you know what constitutes love? I can tell you I always thought Lois and Superman's relationship sicko. And Steve Trevor is a bit of an ass to be pressuring someone as naive as Wonder Woman. Glad she left him. Take that as you will.

My conception of love is based on a verse in the Bible which most people, even non-Christians, agree is the closest and best definition of true love. The verse is from Corinthians 13 and states: Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. At the moment, this applies to Diana/Steve, Clark/Lois, and Superman/Wonder Woman. To me, if Superman and Wonder Woman are only attracted to each other because they've denied the true desire of their hearts out of fear then so far Clark and Diana haven't shown the courage and faith necessary to prove their affection for Lois and Steve is true love, and if Clark and Diana are only bonding because they can't have what they really want, that doesn't scream true love either.

Finally, I believe Steve was rightfully angry at Diana. She treated him like a child by pushing him away from the people and mission he loved for her own selfish peace of mind. I might be mistaken on this, as I've not been reading Wonder Woman, but it occurs to me that Diana is especially worried about hurting men she feels she's attracted because it would mirror the harm her fellow Amazons brought into the lives of men they seduced. If that is the case, then it would show maturity and strength of character for Diana to face this fear -- allow Steve back into her life -- and reconcile who she is with the society in which she was born and raised. Likewise, Superman would do well to face the ghosts of his past with the human Kents and find a new home with humans. His parents, from what we've seen, knew him and his secret and didn't die because of it. They welcomed him into their home, raised, and protected him even though he was different and probably dangerous when he was just developing his powers and learning how to use them. With Lois, he can show that same amount of courage and receive that same amount of love, but he has to be able to bear the possibility -- really inevitability -- that she will someday die just like Martha and Jonathan did.

[RandomFalls]

How do you know what constitutes love? I can tell you I always thought Lois and Superman's relationship sicko. And Steve Trevor is a bit of an ass to be pressuring someone as naive as Wonder Woman. Glad she left him. Take that as you will.

I feel a bit like I'm going to regret asking this but where does Steve pressure Wonder Woman into anything?

[Outside_85]

Which is utter nonesense.

It really isn't.

[Aquacatlungfish]

I'm honestly just shocked that the SMWW relationship is so popular and and that there are so many users here who seem to be die hard fans. Why is it so popular? Tell me a comic where it was good? The obvious answer is Kingdom Come but while as a whole KC is rather fantastic and SMWW scenes aren't that unbearable, Wonder Woman in it is Superman's sloppy seconds. Superman didn't leave Lois for her, Lois was taken away from him making him go to WW, Diana seems to have bipolar in it and Mark Waid has apologized for the treatment of Diana in it and he prefer Lois Lane with Superman. If you use the Alex Ross to defend the pairing you don't seem to get that Alex Ross is a hypocrite and probably asked for the relationship because he's a Supes fanboy. I honestly can't think of a writer artist pairing that loves Superman that much. You should love the characters you write but Ross is the definition of a fanboy. The next big example is DK2 and I have called DK2 time and time again the greatest comic book ever made and that is because it is so hilariously awful in every possible way so much it becomes a thing of beauty. The relationship between Superman and Wonder Woman was done so that there could be a sex scene that causes an Earthquake and kills loads of people and that Frank Miller hates woman who don't have colorful costumes. If you point to Red Son you deserve a punch in the face (I like Red Son alot but WW was soooooo poorly treated in it).

TL;DR: SMWW sucks.

[kylesgirl]

I'm honestly just shocked that the SMWW relationship is so popular and and that there are so many users here who seem to be die hard fans. Why is it so popular? Tell me a comic where it was good? The obvious answer is Kingdom Come but while as a whole KC is rather fantastic and SMWW scenes aren't that unbearable, Wonder Woman in it is Superman's sloppy seconds. Superman didn't leave Lois for her, Lois was taken away from him making him go to WW, Diana seems to have bipolar in it and Mark Waid has apologized for the treatment of Diana in it and he prefer Lois Lane with Superman. If you use the Alex Ross to defend the pairing you don't seem to get that Alex Ross is a hypocrite and probably asked for the relationship because he's a Supes fanboy. I honestly can't think of a writer artist pairing that loves Superman that much. You should love the characters you write but Ross is the definition of a fanboy. The next big example is DK2 and I have called DK2 time and time again the greatest comic book ever made and that is because it is so hilariously awful in every possible way so much it becomes a thing of beauty. The relationship between Superman and Wonder Woman was done so that there could be a sex scene that causes an Earthquake and kills loads of people and that Frank Miller hates woman who don't have colorful costumes. If you point to Red Son you deserve a punch in the face (I like Red Son alot but WW was soooooo poorly treated in it).

TL;DR: SMWW sucks.

You're shocked? Well, you learned something new, then haven't you? I agree can the clois shippers go start their own thread how awesome Lois and Calrk is because I really don't care to hear that over and over on a thread that was supposed to be about sm/ww and of course like on the Superman forum, it gets derailed again by the clois shippers AGAIN.

And your rant is stupid btw. Shows your petty mind set. WW is Superman's sloppy seconds...boy.