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  1. #181
    Marquis de carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    It is because Superman had that upbringing that he is likely attracted to a human like Lois so much.
    Isn't it actually far more likely that he is simply attracted to brainy brunettes with large breasts?
    'The marquis. Well, you know, to be honest, he seems a little bit dodgy to me.'
    'Mm,' she agreed. 'He's a little bit dodgy in the same way that rats are a little bit covered in fur."

  2. #182
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    "Announcing YOUNG ROMANCE: A NEW 52 VALENTINE’S DAY SPECIAL

    This February, celebrate Valentine’s Day with your favorite DC Comics characters!

    Take an exclusive first look at YOUNG ROMANCE: A VALENTINE’S DAY SPECIAL #1 by checking out Kenneth Rocafort’s cover for the issue below. Romance is in the air indeed!

    Variant cover also available"



    Last edited by brettc1; 11-15-2012 at 05:36 AM.
    Irene Adler: “I would have you right here on this desk until you begged for mercy twice.”
    Sherlock: “I’ve never begged for mercy in my life.”
    Irene: “Twice.”


  3. #183
    Ghost of Perdition Nocturnus's Avatar
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    @misslane38

    Clark Kent not becoming a Dick Grayson is what I mean about not whoring out. I want them to have other relations, but not under the pretense of tying to humanity bs.

  4. #184
    Veteran Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    The variant being Apollo and Midnighter would be cool. I would guess it'll be Batman and Catwoman though.

  5. #185
    Blue Boba ABH-1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    I’m not sure how this relates to my comments. You’re basically agreeing with me that there is something amiss or something from which Superman and Wonder Woman need to grow. If one cannot make judgments about current characterization based on what’s currently been written, then you are essentially foreclosing any evaluation and discussion of released comic books for no reason other than to shield characters from scrutiny. So you seem to want to disagree with me when what you’ve written here mirrors what I’ve said; thus we are already in agreement.
    No, I'm not agreeing, because I'm not seeing the bad behavior you're speaking of. I'm only seeing human behavior.

    You have the right to see it and critique it however you want, whenever you want, but we're still at the very beginning of these arcs. Would you really criticize a novel based on how the characters act in the first chapter? Or would you wait until the end of the story to see where these characters eventually end up?

    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    I never suggested otherwise. What I said was that this coupling is one of those moments of doubt and fear, because it is based on pushing people away and the consequent isolation and alienation of that decision. Until the narrative – through Clark and Diana’s choices going forward – addresses these underlying issues they and their relationship will continue to be characterized by cowardice not befitting heroes of their caliber.
    Are you afraid that these underlying issues won't be addressed?
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  6. #186

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    Addressed like those months of flirting maybe.

  7. #187

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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    "Announcing YOUNG ROMANCE: A NEW 52 VALENTINE’S DAY SPECIAL

    This February, celebrate Valentine’s Day with your favorite DC Comics characters!

    Take an exclusive first look at YOUNG ROMANCE: A VALENTINE’S DAY SPECIAL #1 by checking out Kenneth Rocafort’s cover for the issue below. Romance is in the air indeed!

    Variant cover also available"



    Shows exactly why Steve needs to be his own man and stop acting like a wet sop. The dude had decades to be made into a character people care for and they still struggling to make it so. The only thing JL showed was that he was WW babysiter and besotted with someone very much younger and immature than he was. Helps sshe is bvery beautiful no doubt. If this was anyone but Diana you'd have people with some sense saying being dumped was inevitable. He didn't look seem he even understands Diana as well. Him going off in his own direction might start making him a man in his own right.

  8. #188

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    Quote Originally Posted by apexspark View Post
    Addressed like those months of flirting maybe.
    Maybe and we may well see it as time goes by but I will say Lois and Clark have very little chemistry. There's been more sparks between him and WW than him and Lois. In fact when he is around Lois he gets a little pathetic. The Superman books (the first 12 exceptionally boring and repetitive) have been rather contradictory to what is going on with Action and Justice League. What Misslane sees he has with Lois seems to be based on emotions about on past continuity. Hence her being stuck on the past. We are in the first chap really of the reboot and all her arguments have been based on how Superman used to be. And can I say THIS Superman is more interesting this time around. He's got more layers to him. I like he's a little flawed too. But basically he and Diana are heroic. Also we have creators saying he is not defined by Lois (Lobdell) and he stands up for the small man and justice (Morrison) etc. Sorry it bursts the clois fans bubble that Lois is somehow Superman's only reason to care for humanity. But this time it's being laid out for readers. And Azzarello clearly does not see Steve as important to define Diana as well.

  9. #189

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidgrantlloyd View Post
    Essential purchase!

    Which artist draws it better? Jim Lee or Kenneth Rocafort? Now THERE'S a challenge!
    Tony Daniel so far IMO

    my artwork

    What if a child dreamed of becoming something other than what society had intended? What if a child aspired to something greater? Man of Steel

  10. #190

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    Quote Originally Posted by kylesgirl View Post
    Maybe and we may well see it as time goes by but I will say Lois and Clark have very little chemistry. There's been more sparks between him and WW than him and Lois. In fact when he is around Lois he gets a little pathetic. The Superman books (the first 12 exceptionally boring and repetitive) have been rather contradictory to what is going on with Action and Justice League. What Misslane sees he has with Lois seems to be based on emotions about on past continuity. Hence her being stuck on the past. We are in the first chap really of the reboot and all her arguments have been based on how Superman used to be. And can I say THIS Superman is more interesting this time around. He's got more layers to him. I like he's a little flawed too. But basically he and Diana are heroic. Also we have creators saying he is not defined by Lois (Lobdell) and he stands up for the small man and justice (Morrison) etc. Sorry it bursts the clois fans bubble that Lois is somehow Superman's only reason to care for humanity. But this time it's being laid out for readers. And Azzarello clearly does not see Steve as important to define Diana as well.
    Please. You can't smoke out a love story as damn ancient as Superman and Lois Lane with a dozen floppies of her being a bitch and them just meeting. Azzerello doesn't see anything as important to define Diana, but love interests usually don't define a protagonist, if she's gonna get one it should be in her own title otherwise it's just a demotion to supporting character and Azz stealing the New Gods for WW is completely in vain.

  11. #191
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Current wisdome is that it must end at some point, for the same reason writers have killed the relatioship with Clark and Lois, Spider-Man and MJ, etc. Writers love drama, and happily ever after is a big obtacle to that, I admit. But if you look at both the example above, the problem is how do you split these guys up? The hero can't cheat, and fans are equally unlikely to accept them being cheated on. In each instance it took a universe altering event to end the relationship so that nobody is the bad guy.
    Men and women are capable of ending a relationship amicably. Why is cheating the only option? Clark and Diana could simply have a conversation one day about how they don't feel the same way about each other anymore; no hard feelings.

    Quote Originally Posted by carabas View Post
    Isn't it actually far more likely that he is simply attracted to brainy brunettes with large breasts?
    Based on what we have as textual evidence, it seems Clark was most likely attracted to Lois' courage and intelligence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nocturnus View Post
    Clark Kent not becoming a Dick Grayson is what I mean about not whoring out. I want them to have other relations, but not under the pretense of tying to humanity bs.
    If the sorts of relationships Clark wants are with humans, then he should not push those relationships away out of fear. He wants those ties to humanity. And there is still no acceptable way to use the whore label in this conversation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Namtab View Post
    No, I'm not agreeing, because I'm not seeing the bad behavior you're speaking of. I'm only seeing human behavior.
    Human behavior isn't perfect. It's flawed. I expect heroes to overcome their flaws.

    You have the right to see it and critique it however you want, whenever you want, but we're still at the very beginning of these arcs. Would you really criticize a novel based on how the characters act in the first chapter? Or would you wait until the end of the story to see where these characters eventually end up?
    I am not criticizing unwritten and unread arcs, though. I'm criticizing the comments of folks here who don't seem to see anything wrong with Diana's and Clark's behavior thus far. They don't seem to believe there is a need for growth at all.

    Are you afraid that these underlying issues won't be addressed?
    No, I'm afraid fans of Superman and Wonder Woman as a couple will not see that there are issues that need to be textually addressed.

    Quote Originally Posted by kylesgirl View Post
    Maybe and we may well see it as time goes by but I will say Lois and Clark have very little chemistry. There's been more sparks between him and WW than him and Lois.
    Superman and Wonder Woman didn't have any chemistry until the powers that be decided it was time for them to kiss. There was no build up to their attraction at all.

    In fact when he is around Lois he gets a little pathetic.
    I know, right? That's essentially what I've been saying for several pages in this thread. Clark needs to grow up and stop being so pathetically afraid before a relationship with Lois has a chance to develop.

    The Superman books (the first 12 exceptionally boring and repetitive) have been rather contradictory to what is going on with Action and Justice League.
    How so? What contradictions do you see? The biggest contradiction I've noted, by the way, is Diana's characterization in Wonder Woman versus Justice League.

    What Misslane sees he has with Lois seems to be based on emotions about on past continuity. Hence her being stuck on the past.
    Actually, no, that's not what I'm seeing at all. In several New 52 books, Clark has clearly indicated he has romantic feelings for Lois.

    We are in the first chap really of the reboot and all her arguments have been based on how Superman used to be.
    Again, I haven't talked about how Superman used to be much at all.

    Sorry it bursts the clois fans bubble that Lois is somehow Superman's only reason to care for humanity.
    I haven't made this argument at all. I've only suggested that because Superman loves and cares for humanity so much, he wants to connect with it. And, therefore, by denying himself those connections out of fear, he is only hurting himself. I've also said that this problem could be remedied if Clark developed a deep connection with an ordinary human who could be Lois or anyone else. I've even said his human connection would be best made while dating Diana, so Clark and Diana as well as readers can determine if their relationship can survive once the alienation that sparked it in the first place fades away.

  12. #192
    Blue Boba ABH-1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    Human behavior isn't perfect. It's flawed.
    Yes, to be human is to be flawed, and there's nothing wrong with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    I expect heroes to overcome their flaws.
    The flaws as you see them? Maybe they will, maybe they won't, but they'd have to have flaws in the first place in order to overcome them. If you want these heroes to be perfect, then I'm glad you're not getting your way, because that would be boring.

    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    I am not criticizing unwritten and unread arcs, though. I'm criticizing the comments of folks here who don't seem to see anything wrong with Diana's and Clark's behavior thus far.
    So, your issue is with those of us that enjoy what's going on with Clark and Diana? See, I thought your issue was with the writers. But instead, somehow we're all wrong because we like where this is going so far?

    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    They don't seem to believe there is a need for growth at all.
    Who said that? If they are as flawed as you think they are, then their is a lot of opportunity for character growth.

    Is it growth you want, or is it Pre-Flashpoint regression you want?

    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    No, I'm afraid fans of Superman and Wonder Woman as a couple will not see that there are issues that need to be textually addressed.
    No, you're afraid that there will be enough people that like this direction, that your wants and needs won't be addressed.
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  13. #193

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    Quote Originally Posted by apexspark View Post
    Please. You can't smoke out a love story as damn ancient as Superman and Lois Lane with a dozen floppies of her being a bitch and them just meeting. Azzerello doesn't see anything as important to define Diana, but love interests usually don't define a protagonist, if she's gonna get one it should be in her own title otherwise it's just a demotion to supporting character and Azz stealing the New Gods for WW is completely in vain.
    Your defination of what is a bitch makes me think what book are you reading. That anyone could call this Lois a bitch needs their head examined. She is not chasing after Superman like a groupie, she's not treating Clark mean or like he is some annoyance like she always has done in the past, she's made her way to a position where she has to be take didficult decisons but see she's a bitch? Wow, talk about judgemental. But then you fans condemned her for having a boyfriend on a preview. The nasty things being said a year ago was more baffling and you did not even have context to the story. So what else can one expect? Oh and the book is called Superman. Not Lois. It is the writer's job to develop him first.

    And the WW book is cited as one of the best books of the new 52 . You can disagree of course.

  14. #194
    Senior Member Zagreus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carabas View Post
    Isn't it actually far more likely that he is simply attracted to brainy brunettes with large breasts?
    Seconded. I'd go as far as to say Lois and Diana really are the same "type" of woman. If Clark has a type, Lois and Diana are both it: smart, assertive, long legged, busty "good" girls with an edge.

    Oh, he has a type. And hey, what's not to love.

  15. #195
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Namtab View Post
    Yes, to be human is to be flawed, and there's nothing wrong with that.
    No, there isn't. But awareness of one's flaws, and a desire to change for the better, are admirable qualities heroes of the caliber of Superman and Wonder Woman should seek to embody.

    The flaws as you see them? Maybe they will, maybe they won't, but they'd have to have flaws in the first place in order to overcome them. If you want these heroes to be perfect, then I'm glad you're not getting your way, because that would be boring.
    I don't want heroes to be perfect, so don't put words in my mouth. I want heroes to be aware of their imperfections and always strive to do better even if that means making mistakes along the way. Heroes, in other words, should seek to address their flaws rather than ignore them. Perfection isn't the goal; it is self-awareness, a sincere desire to change, and the ability to take steps toward change despite setbacks.

    So, your issue is with those of us that enjoy what's going on with Clark and Diana? See, I thought your issue was with the writers. But instead, somehow we're all wrong because we like where this is going so far?
    It doesn't matter to me that you are liking and enjoying Clark and Diana together. I find it troubling that it is almost impossible for fans of the pairing to admit that both characters are wrong to limit contact with ordinary humans out of fear and that a mutual sense of alienation and isolation is not the ideal foundation for a relationship. Fans of Superman and Wonder Woman as a couple, in my opinion, should want to see that relationship help both characters find the courage and strength to overcome fear and ultimately to reach out to ordinary humans they distanced themselves from in the first place.

    Who said that? If they are as flawed as you think they are, then their is a lot of opportunity for character growth.
    I don't understand this comment. Of course I believe Superman and Wonder Woman are flawed in this particular area and thus believe they have room to grow. My issue is with those who do not seem to think there is anything wrong with Clark and Diana limiting the contact they have with humans they care about out of fear.

    Is it growth you want, or is it Pre-Flashpoint regression you want?
    I haven't mentioned anything about regression or the Pre-Flashpoint characterizations of either Diana or Clark. As I've stated multiple times now, I want Diana and Clark to overcome the fears they have expressed in the New 52. I want them to be able to reach out to ordinary humans and have deep emotional connections with them because they want those connections. Being connected to humans and having relationships with them are important to Superman and Wonder Woman, but they have denied themselves the chance to fulfill those needs and desires because they are scared.

    No, you're afraid that there will be enough people that like this direction, that your wants and needs won't be addressed.
    Is it easier for you to just make up my thoughts and opinions than to actually address the real thing? Because I have not said anything close to what you're suggesting. If people like this direction, then that's fine. But, as someone who cares about Superman (not saying you or others do not, by the way), I want him to courageously take the risks necessary to give himself the chance of having the kind of life he wants. Clark wants to be close to humans whether they are friends, co-workers, mentors, or even love interests. He is the one who is frustrated by his own alienation and his inability to have significant relationships with humans. I want his needs addressed. I want his relationship with Diana to help him grow, which could mean staying together or growing apart. I don't care. The essence of a hero's journey, according to Joseph Campbell, is to slay one's dragons -- overcome fear and conflict -- to become a self-actualized leader. Consequently, I don't believe I'm being unreasonable to ask that my need for heroes to be true heroes be addressed regardless of whether or not such a creative direction would be well-liked.

    Quote Originally Posted by kylesgirl View Post
    She is not chasing after Superman like a groupie, she's not treating Clark mean or like he is some annoyance like she always has done in the past, she's made her way to a position where she has to be take didficult decisons but see she's a bitch?
    Clark was an annoyance in the past, so Lois' treatment of him was justified. We're talking about a man who would renege on his promises and professional obligations consistently for lame reasons. In the Post-Crisis era, he earned a position at the Daily Planet, which was equivalent to hers, without putting in half of the amount of time and effort. He later admitted to lying to Lois about using connections with Superman to scoop her. If Lois treated Clark poorly, it was because he was not a perfect gentleman.

    Wow, talk about judgemental. But then you fans condemned her for having a boyfriend on a preview.
    This keeps getting repeated again and again with absolutely no factual basis to back it up. No one was bothered by the fact that Lois had a boyfriend in the preview. What was offensive was the way in which news about the new boyfriend was released and subsequently promoted. A lot of Lois fans took issue with the fact that Perez seemed to be using Jonathan as way to draw readers' sympathies to Clark. He even went so far as to have Clark remark on his name (e.g. "nice name") because it was the name of his late father, Jonathan Kent. In other words, the problem with Lois' new boyfriend was that he was only there to make Clark feel bad.

    The nasty things being said a year ago was more baffling and you did not even have context to the story. So what else can one expect? Oh and the book is called Superman. Not Lois. It is the writer's job to develop him first.
    Good writers are capable of developing their protagonist while also developing supporting characters. In many ways, a writer who uses supporting characters well, will better serve their main character.

    And the WW book is cited as one of the best books of the new 52 . You can disagree of course.
    For my part, I both love and hate Wonder Woman in the New 52. I love Diana's characterization and the creative use of Greek myth, but I hate the dramatic changes in her origins.
    Last edited by misslane38; 11-15-2012 at 12:12 PM.

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