Another kiss by WW and Superman

[Auguste Dupin]

A crime? I said it was selfish and cowardly, which it is. Diana has no secrets to keep from Steve, so there's no issue of trust there and she did not express her reasons for pushing him away as relating to anything other than her desire not to see him come to harm. With Superman, we've gotten even less insight. In Justice League #12 he tells Diana he has to keep secrets, and in Superman #3 he mopes about not being able to answer Lois' calls for openness, but he never explicitly shares with us or anyone the reasons for his secrecy, if I recall. We are left to assume -- based on the characterization of Superman in other eras -- that his motivation is to protect Lois. Problem is, the New 52 has gone out of its way to remove the traditional reasons for this worry. Lois doesn't have a public relationship with Superman, for one, and she doesn't to find the reporter, Clark Kent, nearly as unappealing as her previous incarnations did. Moreover, Superman spoke with contentment to Lois' father General Lane that her promotion to TV news producer because it meant she wasn't in the line of fire as much as a boots on the ground investigative reporter taking the risks he did as Clark just to keep up with him as her journalistic rival. In short, the comics have yet to actually provide a solid explanation for why Superman is so reluctant to open up to Lois. It certainly hasn't been presented as a matter of trust at all.

It is cowardly for Superman to not follow his heart. This is what Alan Moore thought when he had Superman in What Ever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow? state outright on the eve of his possible doom, "[Lois and Lana] have wasted their love on me, while I couldn't let myself love either of them the way they deserved. I wish I had explained. I wish I hadn't been such a coward." It was the message in Smallville's "Promise" (except Clark was dealing with his feelings for Lana at the time):

Clark: If Lana didn't want to marry Lex, she wouldn't.
Chloe: Lana's not my hero, Clark -- you are. And this whole idea that you're still hiding who you really are, that you're giving up the one person that you totally love --
Clark: I'm protecting her.
Chloe: [ Sarcastic ] Good job. She's marrying a monster and trapping herself into a loveless life.
Clark: Chloe, you think this is easy for me?
Chloe: I think it's easier than getting hurt. You don't hesitate to run into a burning building or jump in front of a bullet because nothing can penetrate that iron flesh of yours. But the one time saving Lana means putting your heart on the line, the Man of Steel is nowhere to be found.
Clark: Letting Lana go is the hardest thing I've ever had to do, Chloe. If you don't know that, then you don't know me as well as I thought you did.

Later with his mother...

Clark: You know, I can't help but wonder... ..if all those things I told myself -- that knowing the truth about me would be too much for Lana to handle, if she knew my secret she'd be in danger - what if I just made up all those excuses because I was scared?
Martha: [ Smiling ] Then you'd be just like the rest of us.
Clark: What do you mean?
Martha: Your father and I almost didn't get married. I broke it off after a year. We had a horrible argument, and I thought I'd never see him again. You know, we came from such different worlds. Our families, the paths we were on -- everything was stacked against us.
Clark: Then why'd you get back together?
Martha: Because I... I couldn't stop thinking about him.
Clark: What if I take that risk... and Lana really is happy with Lex?
Martha: All I can tell you Clark is that, if I hadn't taken that chance, I would have lost everything that's ever meant something to me.

Your use of selfishness and cowardly. For one, being cold feet about not opening up to someone you're attracted to might be considered cowardly (and then only if you lack compassion and/or have never been in that kind of situation before), but selfish? How is it selfish to not listen to your feelings, not to mention he has no way of knowing she has anykind of feeling towards any of his alter egos. Wouldn't it be "selfish" to open up now, with Lois being in a relationship with someone else? One could argue so.
(By the way, he does no such thing in Superman 3, I just checked).
You talk about how the new 52 removed the traditionnal reasons for him to worry Thing is, by the time the reasons disapear, she's with another man. This Clark is one that missed the coach. She may not find Clark unappealing, but nowhere it is even hinted, appart from a Superman fantasy in AC 12, that she has any kind of romantic attraction towards him. Why would he complicate things for her for no reasons?
Besides, he just don't have to open up. Superman is his secret garden, his "Fortress of Solitude" as post crisis would put it. His little place of solace. We all have this kind of little thing that is "our" thing, and that only our most trusted ones know about. That doesn't make him cowardly, that makes him secretive. Which just is his goddamn choice. Like it or not, he doesn't have to open up to Lois, just like he doesn't have to open up to Jimmy, or Perry, or Aquaman. That doesn't make him cowardly, or selfish, or lacking "deep emotionnal connections" That makes him someone who likes having his own personnal space he doesn't share easily. Which is coherent with someone who would have a secret lair in freakin North Pole.

[Nocturnus]

Well, I suppose it could end badly. I'm more inclined to think Diana and Clark will be presented with a difficult trial that will test them, perhaps they will even make a few mistakes, but ultimately the result could be a happy ending. If the wisdom and maturity they gain from this trial strengthens their bond while also opening them up to deeper human connections, then that's one form their happy ending might take. Another happy ending, however, could be a Clark and Diana whose response to their trial is to part amicably in order to take a chance on someone else. Lois could be the endgame for Superman, but she doesn't have to be the next woman he takes a chance on. I see both Diana's and Clark's narratives as ones that could accommodate multiple love interests as valuable learning experiences on the way to whatever endpoints exist in their respective futures.

No thanks, I don't want my heroes to be whoring out just so that they can have the humanity shenanigans hanging by thier necks. These are supposed to be inspiring figures. There is absolutely nothing inspiring about having split-ups and multiple relationships. It's quite demotivational. May I suggest you Jersey Shore?

[davidgrantlloyd]

Essential purchase!

Which artist draws it better? Jim Lee or Kenneth Rocafort? Now THERE'S a challenge!

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Well, that's probably going a bit far.
We're monkeys with clothes and opposable thumbs. We were the weakest, so we compensated by being ingenious assholes.
Whose quote is it from?

For a while, I've been doubting that we evolved from monkeys.

Superman does not have humanity. He has kryptonianity.

Good point.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

It's special because it is special to Diana and Clark. Humanity inspires them.

I didn't say Superman will lose his humanity if he connects with Diana on a deep emotional level. I said he will lose something if he only connects with Diana and others like her on a deep emotional level. At this point, Diana and Clark are without any significant human relationships.

I am not suggesting Diana and Clark will lose touch with their humanity. What I am suggesting is that if they both believe they cannot have significant relationships with humans, then they will lose literal connections with humans. These connections are important to Diana and Clark because they love humans and humanity. They are denying themselves one of the deepest desires of their hearts out of fear. Heroes follow their bliss.

I'm not saying they are less human for denying themselves love. I'm saying to deny love out of fear is antithetical to the nature of an actualized hero. And, more importantly, it is valuable for Diana and Clark to have deep connections with humans because two god-like heroes should be able to open up to people who can give them a honest perspective on how ordinary humans perceive them.

Clark doesn't have any significant platonic bonds with humans. His love and compassion for humanity is what drives his desire to develop those sorts of bonds with them. To deny himself something he desires out of fear is not heroic at all but rather cowardly and paternalistic. Keeping in touch with their human emotions was never something I was concerned about; I was always concerned that denying themselves connections with humans would ultimately leave Diana and Clark without ordinary human contacts from whom they can receive support and perspective.

Well, I wouldn't worry about that. So far we have seen that Superman can develop friendships with humans just fine. I mean, you have agreed that he and Lois are friends. And he's good friends with Jimmy, too. And let's not talk about Ma, Pa and Lana. There was his old editor at The Daily Star and there's Perry. And he seems to be good friends with Bruce. Batman is flawed, yes. But he is human. Also, there's the fact that we are just one year into the new continuity. Diana had a relationship with Steve Trevor (not quite following the WW book, so not up to date on her relationships). So, what I see is that they can connect with humans alright, and there's no indication that they will connect only with each other and those like them.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

For a while, I've been doubting that we evolved from monkeys.

I'm even affraid to ask...

Why?

[666MasterOfPuppets]

- And? Being inspired by something doesn't mean you have to have "deep emotional connections" with them, whatever that means.

-I don't even know why we're having this conversation. Diana is a human being (well, half human, half goddess). Amazons aren't space aliens, they're a different tribe. She was raised by a group of humans. Hell, Clark has been raised by american farmers and is basically a regular joe with incredible powers. The only thing that separate them from "humanity" are their powers but in that case Spider-Man, Mr Fantastic, Flash don't count as humans either. If by humans, you mean "powerless western people (and apparently girl)", I'm sorry but that's a very self centred thing to say.

"The regular joe with incredible powers" phrase sounded kinda depressing to me...

[666MasterOfPuppets]

It is because Superman had that upbringing that he is likely attracted to a human like Lois so much. It is a problem now because instead of following his heart, Clark is following his fears, which is not heroic. His admiration and attraction to Lois was based on her mind and her courage as a reporter (see: Action Comics #0) before he'd ever met her, while the only hints of attraction we got from Superman and Wonder Woman prior to their kiss was his saying about her "You're strong." He and Diana are bonding over their sense of otherness and because they feel isolated and alienated from the humans they care about. The part of Superman and Wonder Woman that loves humanity is what made them like Steve and Lois to begin with, so pushing them away out of sense of their own sense of otherness and paternalism currently makes the Superman and Wonder Woman relationship rooted in fear and alienation. It is, therefore, not just my suspicion that this could be a problem or an area of possible growth for these characters. It is, in fact, what I believe the narrative itself has explicitly presented as the truth.

Key word here is likely. The fact that he was raised by humans doesn't mean that he can only be attracted to humans, just as the fact that he's an alien doesn't mean that he must have a human "anchor". Yes, I know you didn't say that, but I felt I had to point it out. In the case of Clark, he has rock-solid values given by that very same upbringing. And while it's true that the feeling of loneliness they feel was the initial spark for their relationship, that does not automatically mean anything. I mean, that is just a way that a relationship starts.That initial connection is what compelled them to kiss each other. And that connection can come from an array of sources, be it a pre-existing attraction, one of them making the moves on the other, being good friends, or sympathizing with/understanding what the other is feeling. Hell, the solicitations for February even say that Diana will consult Eros on her feelings for Superman.

The best way to dispel this, is to do what is not being done currently and have Clark and Diana allow Steve and Lois to get closer to them and act heroically despite the danger and still prefer to be with each other. Was this not the dynamic which existed in the Post-Crisis when Superman was married to Lois yet also had open and strong bonds with his Justice League teammates? As long as the New 52 operates on an either/or mentality, where it is either no intimacy with anyone or just no intimacy with humans, then the narrative will be suggesting the basis of Superman and Wonder Woman's bond and attraction is their fear-based refusal to act on their own human emotions of love for humans and to allow humans to follow in their footsteps.

They can get closer, sure. Being together, not necessarily. The relationships Clark and Diana can have with Lois and Steve, respectively, that allow them to get that human perspective you mentioned don't have to be romantic in nature. Also, like I said in a previous post, I've seen Clark getting along with his human friends just fine. He does not have to open up to them, however. He can feel a connection with Diana that he does not feel with Lois, and Diana can have a connection that she doesn't have with Steve. Or they do have that connection, but it's not as deep as the one they have with each other. In the end, it does not have to be Lois the one Superman ends up with, just as it doesn't have to be Steve the one Wonder Woman ends up with.

Remember this sentiment, seen in All Star Superman and repeated in Man of Steel? "You will give the people an ideal to strive towards. They will race behind you. They will stumble, they will fall. But in time, they will join you in the sun. In time, you will help them accomplish wonders." What I see Superman and Wonder Woman doing right now is wanting, in theory, for humans to be inspired by them that they would follow them in the sun, but rejecting them once humans start acting on that impulse in reality. This is especially true of Diana's treatment of Steve. She essentially told Steve, who wanted to join her in the sun, that he could not do it in the way that he wanted and chosen. The implicit message, as I see it, is that Superman and Wonder Woman feel the sun, or ideal that they as heroes embody and provide as inspiration, burns too hot and too brightly for humans to ever be allowed to fully join them. And if this is not how they really feel, then the deeper and more personal character based message is that such a mindset is only a psychological defense mechanism -- an excuse -- much like Clark on Smallville spoke to Chloe and Martha about, which means deep down there is nothing noble about it. It's just immaturity and fear, and while I can sympathize with these young and inexperienced heroes dealing with these difficult emotions, I also want to see them grow out of them to become stronger and more self-actualized.

It's one way to look at that sentiment, but I think there's more to it than that.

Oh, and I freakin' love Chloe. What is Allison Mack doing these days?

[666MasterOfPuppets]

I'm even affraid to ask...

Why?

I've always thought that we are too damn complex for evolution to be responsible for it.

[Nocturnus]

I've always thought that we are too damn complex for evolution to be responsible for it.

Darwin was a hack.

[misslane38]

What you see as bad behavior could be something the characters simply have not properly resolved yet. Give them time to right their wrongs, instead of looking at what came before from a different writer.

I’m not sure how this relates to my comments. You’re basically agreeing with me that there is something amiss or something from which Superman and Wonder Woman need to grow. If one cannot make judgments about current characterization based on what’s currently been written, then you are essentially foreclosing any evaluation and discussion of released comic books for no reason other than to shield characters from scrutiny. So you seem to want to disagree with me when what you’ve written here mirrors what I’ve said; thus we are already in agreement.

Also, just because a character or a real life person, has moments of courage and heroism doesn't mean they won't still have moments of doubt and fear. Life has ups and downs; shining moments and times of regret.

I never suggested otherwise. What I said was that this coupling is one of those moments of doubt and fear, because it is based on pushing people away and the consequent isolation and alienation of that decision. Until the narrative – through Clark and Diana’s choices going forward – addresses these underlying issues they and their relationship will continue to be characterized by cowardice not befitting heroes of their caliber.

For one, being cold feet about not opening up to someone you're attracted to might be considered cowardly (and then only if you lack compassion and/or have never been in that kind of situation before), but selfish? How is it selfish to not listen to your feelings, not to mention he has no way of knowing she has anykind of feeling towards any of his alter egos. Wouldn't it be "selfish" to open up now, with Lois being in a relationship with someone else?

Cowardly actions are actions that avoid tough decisions based on fear. Clark and Diana are pushing people away based on fear. It is also selfish of them because they are putting their needs above the needs of others. Steve exercised his free will in wanting to put himself in harm’s way to protect the Justice League and work, as he always had, to protect what he loved, which included Diana and his country. Diana decided her need to not worry about him or potentially grieve for him outweighed his own. It would not be selfish to open up to Lois now. If Clark opens up to her while she’s with Jonathan and his romantic feelings remain unrequited, she is still apt to be the close friend he so desires. If Clark opens up to Lois while she’s with Jonathan, and it makes her question her relationship with Jonathan then Clark would have helped her not make a mistake with Jonathan.

(By the way, he does no such thing in Superman 3, I just checked).

My mistake, it’s Superman #2. In it, Lois phones Clark and he listens to her message in his Fortress in which she reminds him that she’s there for him whenever he wants to open up. We see Clark think to himself that Lois is “quite a lady” and regretfully says, “if only things were different.” So, yes, my apologies for the incorrect reference but it is still true that in the New 52 Lois has offered a sympathetic ear to Clark and he has refused it without ever explaining why.

You talk about how the new 52 removed the traditionnal reasons for him to worry Thing is, by the time the reasons disapear, she's with another man. This Clark is one that missed the coach. She may not find Clark unappealing, but nowhere it is even hinted, appart from a Superman fantasy in AC 12, that she has any kind of romantic attraction towards him. Why would he complicate things for her for no reasons?

Clark doesn’t need to date Lois in order to have her as a close ally and friend who knows his secrets, as Diana did Pre-Flashpoint and as a character like Chloe Sullivan did on Smallville. That Clark missed his chance is simply proof that he let his fears defeat him, and given that none of those fears were explored on the page it looks even more like he was making excuses.

Besides, he just don't have to open up. Superman is his secret garden, his "Fortress of Solitude" as post crisis would put it. His little place of solace. We all have this kind of little thing that is "our" thing, and that only our most trusted ones know about. That doesn't make him cowardly, that makes him secretive.

I disagree. Keeping a secret out of fear is still cowardly. Sympathetic, sure, but cowardly nonetheless.

Which just is his goddamn choice. Like it or not, he doesn't have to open up to Lois, just like he doesn't have to open up to Jimmy, or Perry, or Aquaman.

Of course it’s his choice and he’s not obligated to do anything. It’s still a cowardly and selfish choice because Clark is letting his fears and his need to avoid pain reign.

That doesn't make him cowardly, or selfish, or lacking "deep emotionnal connections" That makes him someone who likes having his own personnal space he doesn't share easily. Which is coherent with someone who would have a secret lair in freakin North Pole.

Let’s be honest here. Superman isn’t keeping secrets from Lois so he can have “personal space.” Clearly he doesn’t want or like the space and distance between him and Lois, and the only reason he’s not going after what he wants is because he is afraid.

No thanks, I don't want my heroes to be whoring out just so that they can have the humanity shenanigans hanging by thier necks. These are supposed to be inspiring figures. There is absolutely nothing inspiring about having split-ups and multiple relationships. It's quite demotivational. May I suggest you Jersey Shore?

So in your mind, having more than one significant relationship in one’s entire lifetime makes one a whore and whatever male equivalent there is of a whore? Okay, thanks for clarifying the level of class and maturity I’m dealing with when I’m having these discussions. I suggested that, if Superman and Wonder Woman break up, they don’t have to immediately date Steve or Lois. They could, and that would be fine by me, but they could *gasp* date more than 3 people in their whole lives.

Well, I wouldn't worry about that. So far we have seen that Superman can develop friendships with humans just fine. I mean, you have agreed that he and Lois are friends. And he's good friends with Jimmy, too. And let's not talk about Ma, Pa and Lana. There was his old editor at The Daily Star and there's Perry. And he seems to be good friends with Bruce. Batman is flawed, yes. But he is human. Also, there's the fact that we are just one year into the new continuity. Diana had a relationship with Steve Trevor (not quite following the WW book, so not up to date on her relationships). So, what I see is that they can connect with humans alright, and there's no indication that they will connect only with each other and those like them.

The issue was never about having friendships. It’s about having close, open relationships with these people. Ma and Pa Kent are dead. Lana has been MIA since one measly back up issue by Sholly Fisch nearly a year ago and so has Pete Ross. By Clark and Diana’s own admission in Justice League #12 they do not feel close to anyone. They do not feel like they belong or are a part of the human world. They see themselves as too different and too dangerous to get as close as they would like to humans, which means they have currently foreclosed the possibility of ever connecting with humans beyond superficial friendships.

[misslane38]

Key word here is likely. The fact that he was raised by humans doesn't mean that he can only be attracted to humans, just as the fact that he's an alien doesn't mean that he must have a human "anchor". Yes, I know you didn't say that, but I felt I had to point it out.

I never said any of what you just said. You’ve just created a straw man. For example, I never said Superman “can only be attracted to humans.” I said that it was his humanity and love of humanity that likely contributed to Lois Lane’s appeal to him. He fell in love with her words and her brain before he ever met her, because she was mirroring his human side’s own behavior as the intrepid reporter for The Daily Star, Clark Kent. This is all intratextual, however. On a metatextual level, the reason it’s been so important for Superman to have a human love interest is to provide a symbolic representation of his love for humanity. As I read recently on Twitter, Superman loved humanity so much he married a human. Myths are often said to work on an archetypal and symbolic level. According to mythologist, Joseph Campbell, myths traditionally have the hero unite in marriage with someone who represents the union of two worlds and resolves the dichotomies in the hero’s life. One of Superman’s primary themes and conflicts is the balance between alien and human, hero and civilian. Reconciling those forces in a yin and yang type bond with a human, like Lois, therefore fits neatly into other tales of lovers from different worlds like Arwen and Aragorn from The Lord of the Rings.

In the case of Clark, he has rock-solid values given by that very same upbringing.

Thanks for sharing this true but completely irrelevant bit of information. I have not questions Clark’s values at all. However, if you’re going to bring up the Kents consider this: the Kents took a huge risk welcoming a baby boy from a spaceship into their home. They could risk losing him to people eager to exploit him or getting hurt by the boy himself. Yet, these people who for so long were upset by their inability to have a baby to love (much like Superman’s longing for love) took the risk to welcome the baby Kal-El into their home and into their hearts out of love -- true, fearless, love of someone so different from themselves.

And while it's true that the feeling of loneliness they feel was the initial spark for their relationship, that does not automatically mean anything. I mean, that is just a way that a relationship starts. That initial connection is what compelled them to kiss each other. And that connection can come from an array of sources, be it a pre-existing attraction, one of them making the moves on the other, being good friends, or sympathizing with/understanding what the other is feeling. Hell, the solicitations for February even say that Diana will consult Eros on her feelings for Superman.

If what sparked their relationship was loneliness, then it suggests that their relationship must persist with the causes of that loneliness firmly in place unless they are able to develop secondary reasons to fuel the flame long term. I also simply do not like the idea of their relationship acting as some sort of defense mechanism against actually examining the flaws that brought them together. I would need Superman and Wonder Woman to admit they are being cowardly and find a way to face those fears. If they can do that, and there is still a spark between them, then I’d say they’d passed a significant test. Otherwise, their relationship would continue to have a questionable foundation in my eyes.

Since I have no idea what the nature of Diana’s quest for Eros’ wisdom regarding her feelings for Superman will be, it happening doesn’t affect my thoughts on this matter.

They can get closer, sure. Being together, not necessarily. The relationships Clark and Diana can have with Lois and Steve, respectively, that allow them to get that human perspective you mentioned don't have to be romantic in nature.

Never said they had to be romantic. I’d prefer Superman to be with Lois romantically, but I never said it had to happen. I’d like to see Superman and Wonder Woman capable of maturing beyond the fears that brought them together, and yet remain together for other reasons, in order for me to see them as true lovers that deserve to go the distance and be called heroes. If their relationships with humans remain static, then their romance, such as it is, will continue to look like a means of avoidance.

Also, like I said in a previous post, I've seen Clark getting along with his human friends just fine. He does not have to open up to them, however.

Clark gets along with them okay, but Diana doesn’t seem to have any human friends, and they do have to open up to them if their stated reason for feeling so lonely and alienated in Justice League #12, when they kissed, is precisely the lack of openness with those they consider friends. It’s not me who is saying they have to open up to feel a connection, in other words, it’s the characters themselves.

It's one way to look at that sentiment, but I think there's more to it than that.

If you’re going to say there’s more to it, then wouldn’t it be good to actually share your insight?

Oh, and I freakin' love Chloe. What is Allison Mack doing these days?

I went from liking Chloe to hating her to tolerating her. Allison Mack did a guest stint on the FX show Wilfred and is currently doing nothing notable other than dating a guy who works for Invisible Children and tweeting Instagram pictures of herself with said boyfriend or quotes from Gandhi. She’s also a prominent member of a cult called NXIVM which is notorious for having a sexual deviant and fraudster as its leader.

[Auguste Dupin]

For a while, I've been doubting that we evolved from monkeys.



Good point.

Well, actually, we are not monkey's descendants. Humans and monkeys share the same ancestor, we're cousins. We seem more evolved, but on the other hand we created the criterias of evolution so we could put ourselves on the top of it.

[brettc1]

Well, I suppose it could end badly. I'm more inclined to think Diana and Clark will be presented with a difficult trial that will test them, perhaps they will even make a few mistakes, but ultimately the result could be a happy ending. If the wisdom and maturity they gain from this trial strengthens their bond while also opening them up to deeper human connections, then that's one form their happy ending might take. Another happy ending, however, could be a Clark and Diana whose response to their trial is to part amicably in order to take a chance on someone else. Lois could be the endgame for Superman, but she doesn't have to be the next woman he takes a chance on. I see both Diana's and Clark's narratives as ones that could accommodate multiple love interests as valuable learning experiences on the way to whatever endpoints exist in their respective futures.

Current wisdome is that it must end at some point, for the same reason writers have killed the relatioship with Clark and Lois, Spider-Man and MJ, etc. Writers love drama, and happily ever after is a big obtacle to that, I admit. But if you look at both the example above, the problem is how do you split these guys up? The hero can't cheat, and fans are equally unlikely to accept them being cheated on. In each instance it took a universe altering event to end the relationship so that nobody is the bad guy.

[brettc1]

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