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  1. #136
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliseu Gouveia View Post
    LOL
    Feels like the entire board is ganging up on you (oh, how I know the feeling ^_^) and I´m sorry to compound.

    I can see where you´re coming from but IMHO, the fact that they fear for the safety of normal humans is what makes them more sympathetic to me.
    Flawed? Maybe.
    But I like that in my heroes.
    Flaws are good. In many ways we love certain people or appreciate certain people because of flaws; yet not everyone will appreciate the same flaws. Paternalistic overprotectiveness that is based on cowardice and selfishness is not the kind of flaw that appeals to me, especially not in my heroes. Also, if it's a flaw, I appreciate it more if at least the characters are self-aware about it and it's presented as an area for possible growth and not something that one resigns oneself to never improving.
    Last edited by misslane38; 11-13-2012 at 09:33 PM.

  2. #137
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    Well, "paternalistic overprotectiveness that is based on cowardice and selfishness" is one way to see it, I guess.

    Another way is to remember Sue Dibny.

    Bad superguys are a real, clear and present danger.

  3. #138
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zagreus View Post
    I doubt it will go that way, but hey, if it does, I'd read that story. I like Batman saves the world from dehumanized supers stories ;) Course, I'm loving the Azz WW, so I don't want to see that derailed, and I can't imagine DC would want to interfere too much with his story arcs either. "I love everyone" to "Let's rule the world because we're better 'cause we gots powers" is quite a leap.
    There's gotta be a reason she wears those cuffs
    Irene Adler: “I would have you right here on this desk until you begged for mercy twice.”
    Sherlock: “I’ve never begged for mercy in my life.”
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  4. #139
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    Whenever someone claims Superman and Wonder Woman may lose touch with humanity, the idea isn't that they will lose their compassion for humans or their own "human" emotions. It is literally that they will lose touch with humanity. Like Diana pushing Steve away, both Kal and Diana will cut themselves from intimate human relationships because of their compassion and affection for them. But cutting ties like that also limits genuine contact with humans and creates the potential for a more maternalistic/paternalistic relationship with them. I know it's an Elseworlds, but Kingdom Come provides an example of this motif.
    Indeed. Thanks

    And reading more I have to say I agree with pretty much everything else misslane said
    Last edited by brettc1; 11-13-2012 at 10:44 PM.
    Irene Adler: “I would have you right here on this desk until you begged for mercy twice.”
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  5. #140
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    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	PDtnh.jpg 
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ID:	104237

    Fan-made Cover that I thought was pretty awesome if only for the fact that Wonder Women was on top lol


    Also this artist needs to be hired!

  6. #141
    Infâme et fier de l'ętre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    It's special because it is special to Diana and Clark. Humanity inspires them.



    I didn't say Superman will lose his humanity if he connects with Diana on a deep emotional level. I said he will lose something if he only connects with Diana and others like her on a deep emotional level. At this point, Diana and Clark are without any significant human relationships.
    - And? Being inspired by something doesn't mean you have to have "deep emotional connections" with them, whatever that means.

    -I don't even know why we're having this conversation. Diana is a human being (well, half human, half goddess). Amazons aren't space aliens, they're a different tribe. She was raised by a group of humans. Hell, Clark has been raised by american farmers and is basically a regular joe with incredible powers. The only thing that separate them from "humanity" are their powers but in that case Spider-Man, Mr Fantastic, Flash don't count as humans either. If by humans, you mean "powerless western people (and apparently girl)", I'm sorry but that's a very self centred thing to say.
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  7. #142
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desean101101 View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	PDtnh.jpg 
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    Fan-made Cover that I thought was pretty awesome if only for the fact that Wonder Women was on top lol


    Also this artist needs to be hired!
    I agree. Awesome art.

    And I notice Bats face is in the foreground. I'll add it to the tally
    Irene Adler: “I would have you right here on this desk until you begged for mercy twice.”
    Sherlock: “I’ve never begged for mercy in my life.”
    Irene: “Twice.”


  8. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    I don't even know why we're having this conversation. Diana is a human being (well, half human, half goddess).
    Indeed

    Amazons aren't space aliens, they're a different tribe. She was raised by a group of humans.
    Who hate half the other humans on the planet.

    Hell, Clark has been raised by american farmers and is basically a regular joe with incredible powers.
    Lots of people are raised by regular folks and turn out awful. Turn out awful, mind you. They aren't born with a pointed tail and horns. Cyclops in X-Men was a paragon of virtue for 30 years and now he is a villain. Writers often change characters to suit the story they want to tell. It's not impossible for Superman to start to go bad, because is it not impossible to imagine writers doing it. And disconnecting him from ordinary human beings by a romantic relationship with a goddess seems like a way that could happen. Some fans would hate it. Some would love it because it would establish how important the Lois Lane relationship is. And by extension the same could be said of Wonder Woman and Steve Trevor.

    The only thing that separate them from "humanity" are their powers but in that case Spider-Man, Mr Fantastic, Flash don't count as humans either. If by humans, you mean "powerless western people (and apparently girl)", I'm sorry but that's a very self centred thing to say.
    There are obvious differences. First, none of them are aliens or demigods - they are fully human. Second, none of them were born with powers. And third, all of them have ongoing relationships with regular humans. Although I am compelled to point out Reed quite stupidly took Iron Man's side in the Civil War and created the Thor clone that then murdered Goliath. Classic case of him not listening to his human half [Sue] and acting as he thinks is best.

    The question is not what seperates them from humans but whether they seperate themselves from humans. Both are on the page in Justice League saying they already feel seperate. They dont see themselves as ordinary humans with incredible powers. They see themselves as set apart from ordinary humans by their incredible powers. For the moment that is a source of disappointment for both. How long will it be before they decide they are actually better off?
    Last edited by brettc1; 11-14-2012 at 03:02 AM.
    Irene Adler: “I would have you right here on this desk until you begged for mercy twice.”
    Sherlock: “I’ve never begged for mercy in my life.”
    Irene: “Twice.”


  9. #144
    Veteran Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Let's be realistic though, Cyclops is not Superman. Not by any stretch of the imagination. I stand by my belief that no one at DC is stupid enough to think something like that would work. So yeah, I do think its hard to imagine writers doing it. Because of the character in question, not because there's no precedent of it being done with other characters. With some characters you can get away with it. They got away with it with Hal Jordan for years. You're not going to get away with it with Superman for any amount of time. You're not going to be able to have Superman blast another beloved character the likes of Professor X and kill them, or anything equally as bad. Could they tease some dark future scenario in which the story's resolution sees that potential future avoided? Perhaps. A shallow and overdone trope, but at least within the realm of imagination. But to actually happen, no. The idea that it could seems to be born, more than anything, out of a desire to see this relationship storyline end in tragedy just to throw dirt on the very idea of it. So there's something concrete to point to saying "See, Superman can't be with Wonder Woman or it'll turn him evil"; "See, Superman and Wonder Woman can't be with anyone other than Lois Lane and Steve Trevor because they'll turn evil". And I honestly can't imagine a more ham-fisted motivation for a writer. And in my gut I don't believe Johns has such spiteful intentions in mind with this story. Where it'll go I don't know, but I refuse to believe the motivation is making sure its known that two characters' romantic partners are limited because some will turn them evil, or make them care less about people they've sworn to protect.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 11-14-2012 at 03:45 AM.

  10. #145
    Infâme et fier de l'ętre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Indeed



    Who hate half the other humans on the planet.



    Lots of people are raised by regular folks and turn out awful. Turn out awful, mind you. They aren't born with a pointed tail and horns. Cyclops in X-Men was a paragon of virtue for 30 years and now he is a villain. Writers often change characters to suit the story they want to tell. It's not impossible for Superman to start to go bad, because is it not impossible to imagine writers doing it. And disconnecting him from ordinary human beings by a romantic relationship with a goddess seems like a way that could happen. Some fans would hate it. Some would love it because it would establish how important the Lois Lane relationship is. And by extension the same could be said of Wonder Woman and Steve Trevor.



    There are obvious differences. First, none of them are aliens or demigods - they are fully human. Second, none of them were born with powers. And third, all of them have ongoing relationships with regular humans. Although I am compelled to point out Reed quite stupidly took Iron Man's side in the Civil War and created the Thor clone that then murdered Goliath. Classic case of him not listening to his human half [Sue] and acting as he thinks is best.

    The question is not what seperates them from humans but whether they seperate themselves from humans. Both are on the page in Justice League saying they already feel seperate. They dont see themselves as ordinary humans with incredible powers. They see themselves as set apart from ordinary humans by their incredible powers. For the moment that is a source of disappointment for both. How long will it be before they decide they are actually better off?
    - Glad we agree.

    -Typical human reaction. Hating a huge portion of other humans? We do that all the time. Some choose race or religion. They've chosen sex.

    - But I'm not talking about wether or not he can turn awful (I think it has been done to death, the whole "Superman tries to take over the world" so I hope we stay very much away from this). I'm talking about wether or not they count as "human connections". They do, because for all intent and purposes, they have been created as human like being with superpowers.

    - Clark was raised as a human being all his life. Kryptonians are portrayed as humans with futuristic tech. And his powers appeared gradually after a while, so he experienced regular humanity. He even had a regular human love back in high school in the person of Lana Lang.
    They said they feel lonely, so they get together. Why would it be a problem for two very human like creatures, with the same feeling we have, to be involved together? What would be any different if Clark was involved with Cat Grant, and Diana with whoever the new League's liaison ends up being?
    But I didn't expect any less from the creator of "Team Steve".
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  11. #146
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    There are people who do service to the world based on larger or something bigger that basic emotion too...like simple love of fellow man/woman. Which has always been the case with Sueprman and Wonder Woman. It's ingrained in both characters mythos, how much they love people and why they choose to be heroes. It was never about veangeance for example. In many cultures around the world is is normal to even be celebate and just because one is not intimate romantically with someone, it does not mean anyone can't empathize with the plight of humanity. I know people who go down in the mud for people they barely even know but they do it out of a great desire of peace, equality and love. And they are happy people. They don't sit and wring their hands and go woe is me, I am alone and I am so sad. If two people can connect, I'd say it helps them both, no matter who they are or where they come from. And no way says two people like Clark Kent or Diana will isolate themselves if they get together. I just think it's out of character based on everything we have seen so far.

    People might think that or fear them because they don't understand. Look at Arthur...he is not even liked by the government for the same reasons...anyone different is a threat. It's an indictment of humans. Not meta humans. Humans can be so arrogant and bear the worst attributes in the universe. This notion of humanity is so great is the biggest bs I have ever come across. Like what fanboii says, the Green Lantern Mythos does debunk a lot of what misslane is saying as well.
    Last edited by thepenguin; 11-14-2012 at 04:03 AM.

  12. #147
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    - Glad we agree.

    -Typical human reaction. Hating a huge portion of other humans? We do that all the time.
    Real Amazons dont. Wonder Woman, for example.

    I'm not talking about wether or not he can turn awful (I think it has been done to death, the whole "Superman tries to take over the world" so I hope we stay very much away from this). I'm talking about wether or not they count as "human connections". They do, because for all intent and purposes, they have been created as human like being with superpowers.

    - Clark was raised as a human being all his life. Kryptonians are portrayed as humans with futuristic tech. And his powers appeared gradually after a while, so he experienced regular humanity. He even had a regular human love back in high school in the person of Lana Lang.
    Lots of people are raised as human beings and get it into their head they should be in charge because they are better than others.

    They said they feel lonely, so they get together. Why would it be a problem for two very human like creatures, with the same feeling we have, to be involved together? What would be any different if Clark was involved with Cat Grant, and Diana with whoever the new League's liaison ends up being?
    Because they are human and not all powerful. Also precisely because they are human like, and therefore imperfect, and the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Its hard not to be corrupted by power, its even harder when you have a planet of people who basically worship you, and its harder again when your most intimate companion is also a person who has little to no experience in what it is to be a human being without incredible super powers.

    But I didn't expect any less from the creator of "Team Steve".
    I make it my business not to disappoint. One thing to look forward to will be seeing the awesomeness that is Steve Trevor kick big blue's ass

    Also, you designation of creator is duely noted. Boo-yah!!!
    Last edited by brettc1; 11-14-2012 at 04:09 AM.
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  13. #148
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thepenguin View Post
    This notion of humanity is so great is the biggest bs I have ever come across. Like what fanboii says, the Green Lantern Mythos does debunk a lot of what misslane is saying as well.
    And the Star Trek mythos does a lot to support her veiws

    Actually I should say our views.
    Irene Adler: “I would have you right here on this desk until you begged for mercy twice.”
    Sherlock: “I’ve never begged for mercy in my life.”
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  14. #149
    Infâme et fier de l'ętre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Real Amazons dont. Wonder Woman, for example.



    Lots of people are raised as human beings and get it into their head they should be in charge because they are better than others.



    Because they are human and not all powerful. Also precisely because they are human like, and therefore imperfect, and the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Its hard not to be corrupted by power, its even harder when you have a planet of people who basically worship you, and its harder again when your most intimate companion is also a person who has little to no experience in what it is to be a human being without incredible super powers.



    I make it my business not to disappoint. One thing to look forward to will be seeing the awesomeness that is Steve Trevor kick big blue's ass

    Also, you designation of creator is duely noted. Boo-yah!!!
    -How is that even slightly related to what we're talking about? This Wonder Woman has been raised by people with a human psychology, and is herself half Amazon (human tribe) and half Greek God (Greek Gods being known for having very human emotions).

    -Yes, and they are human and have "deep emotionnal connections" with others. You do realize that I was NOT talking about wether or not Superman and Wonder Woman will turn evil, right? Them becoming bad guys has nothing to do with losing their humanity. We have enough regular people that are horrible persons to know that.

    - But Superman has. His powers started to manifest with time and they were slowly developing. He didn't start to fly until a year after he arrived in Metropolis. He doesn't need someone to remind him of that, let us stop to be so foolishly self centred. Diana has been raised by an entire island of humans, has known motherly love, friendship and rejection, all of which are typicaly human experiences. Let's go a bit further: how is having a "human" love interest supposed to teach them anything about "humanity" they wouldn't have learn from their (in both case) human parents, or human friends, hell, their human rivals would teach them some things. We are not talking about Dr Manhattan or Silver Surfer.
    What you are saying is that, when one of the most compassionate superhero, one who fought for the little guy and the oppressed as Superman and as Clark Kent, hooks up with one of the most compassionate superheroines, one who said in front of Death itself "I love everyone", somehow they're turning into cold emotionneless extremists, beause they don't have "regular human interactions"? I'm sorry, but it doesn't make any sense.
    That and the planet isn't worshiping Superman. Yet. He is still a relatively controversial hero.

    -If pettyness is the name of the game, petty I can be.
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  15. #150
    Senior Member hellacre's Avatar
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    It's unfair to judge Diana's intentions and motivations on her culture or her and Superman on their DNA. There are so many stories about a protagonist choosing to think differently or choose a path that is not what his/her family or society envisioned etc. Diana even when she was brought up by the uptopian Amazons...had to go against the grain. She was a rebel in a way because inherently she was always going to be something special. That's why she became WW and choose to remain WW.

    At the most basic...it's like saying no immigant who came to America ever adapted and got together with someone born here of a different race/religion etc. Or two immigrants of different cultures could meet in America and hook up. The human race are capable of finding great unity in each other and yet capable of shunning each other for just being different.

    The long and short is I buy Diana's message. I buy Superman's message. I see in both some of the best aspects of humanity. Any man would be lucky to have Diana's love and could only benefit from it as far as I see it. Whether they have the balls, the time, the inclination, the ability to date her, keep her interest, brave her world, add something to enrich her as a character...is another thing. That is down to writing. Same goes for Superman and which ever woman he cares for. But it's just like any other relationship... be it human or meta. Emotion is emotion. Grant Morrison...I don't have the exact quote... says Superman is relatable just on a huge scale...ie he walks the dog too...just he walks the dog in the galaxy. Azz has given Diana a disfunctional family with skeletons in the closet... just like many of us. While some may disagree on whether they like the books or not, the creators are being very clear...these new 52 characters are heroes who care for their family, friends and the world. That could not wane no matter who they hooked up with. And I don't see two of the most iconic characters whose most basic message is about hope and love isolating themselves or turning evil. Relationships could not work for many reasons but that reason with them? It's really reaching and I think it's a red herring Johns is set up as well with the Booster thing. The suggestion they need only Steve and Lois to be who they are? If that is the case they should just hand over the cape and the lasso to someone else.
    Last edited by hellacre; 11-14-2012 at 07:42 AM.
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