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  1. #106
    Senior Member hellacre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    Whenever someone claims Superman and Wonder Woman may lose touch with humanity, the idea isn't that they will lose their compassion for humans or their own "human" emotions. It is literally that they will lose touch with humanity. Like Diana pushing Steve away, both Kal and Diana will cut themselves from intimate human relationships because of their compassion and affection for them. But cutting ties like that also limits genuine contact with humans and creates the potential for a more maternalistic/paternalistic relationship with them. I know it's an Elseworlds, but Kingdom Come provides an example of this motif.
    Diana pushes Steve away the same reason she more than likely wants to push Superman away. She does not want anyone to get hurt because of her. And Steve should know better. He is a grown man, taking zero responsiblity for his part in their failed relationship. How can anyone begin to even excuse or see nothing wrong with Steve and Diana is beyond me. It's like a grown man dating a teenager. So exucse me if I don't see your argument there other than Diana is maturing. Kingdom Come is actually them seeing this for themselves. Even Batman a human was removed from what humans feared. It has zero to do with Steve and Lois really. This tendency to define heroes by love interests is weak. Clark and Diana have the same fears we all have and behave no differently to any other hero who say I can't be with you because I might put you in danger. It's a trouple that has little to do with humanity. Human heroes say this all the time. You undermine these heroes because you ship something else and in fact creators are clear to show that neither Clark nor Diana are defined by Lois or Steve. You can disagree but it does not make you right.
    Last edited by hellacre; 11-13-2012 at 10:13 AM.
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  2. #107
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellacre View Post
    Diana pushes Steve away the same reason she more than likely wants to push Superman away. She does not want anyone to get hurt because of her. And Steve should know better. He is a grown man, taking zero responsiblity for his part in their failed relationship. How can anyone begin to even excuse or see nothing wrong with Steve and Diana is beyond me. It's like a grown man dating a teenager. So exucse me if I don't see your argument there other than Diana is maturing. Kingdom Come is actually them seeing this for themselves. Even Batman a human was removed from what humans feared. It has zero to do with Steve and Lois really. This tendency to define heroes by love interests is weak. Clark and Diana have the same fears we all have and behave no differently to any other hero who say I can't be with you because I might put you in danger. It's a trouple that has little to do with humanity. Human heroes say this all the time. You undermine these heroes because you ship something else and in fact creators are clear to show that neither Clark nor Diana are defined by Lois or Steve. You can disagree but it does not make you right.
    Did I defend Steve? I'm pretty sure I didn't. I have also not defined either Diana or Clark by their love interests. I have repeatedly discussed and analyzed the number of significant human connections these two heroes have in their lives (e.g. love interests, friends, mentors, co-workers, etc.). Whether Steve or Lois are love interests is immaterial. Diana can push him away, but does she intend on connecting with anyone else? Also, isn't it hypocritical for Diana push Steve away for the same reasons she is pushing Superman away? Because eventually she will take a chance on Superman, but will she give Steve the same chance? Will she still consider his humanity as a barrier to true friendship? For Diana to take a risk and actually befriend more humans would be a sign of maturity. Because it's not mature to push people away to protect them. Heroes like Superman and Wonder Woman should admire and embrace humans or anyone who would courageously choose to risk their lives for something they care about or someone they love. Pushing people away out of fear is cowardly; it's understandable, but it's still cowardly. And, I believe, if it leads to Diana and Clark ceasing to establish any significant bonds with ordinary humans, then they will begin to see humans from a maternalistic/paternalistic perspective. Again, this isn't about defining Superman through Lois or Diana through Steve. It's about analyzing the impact limiting ANY human connections might have on the way they approach life and heroism.

  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    I wasn't specifically referring to love interests, though. I'm referring to the idea that Diana and Clark have both resigned themselves to having shallow connections with humans or to pushing humans away from their lives entirely. How many human friends does Diana have, for instance? Does Clark have any deep connections with the humans in his life? Again, when I refer to "humans" I am not referring to love interests but also friends, mentors, coworkers, etc. Batman, in my opinion, is not an ideal solution to the need these characters have for human connections. The humans Diana and Clark should form significant bonds with should be so-called ordinary people. Batman is not only privileged as a wealthy man, but he is also privileged as a hero. Diana and Clark, in other words, should forge close ties with examples of the types of people they seek to protect every day.
    And that interweaving of the lives Diana and Clark live with those around them is one of the issues the writers will have to develop. The new 52 is still less than a year old, even if the characters are young adults. They're still finding their place in the world. Of course, DC could go a different direction with Diana and Clark. If they turn them dark simply to redeem them in some shallow manner later, I won't be interested. But, if the powers that be allow Diana and Clark to form deep bonds with others, then the romantic feelings the two may have for one another right now won't be a problem. It could actually lead to great storytelling.
    As for BM, I think he would ideal. He is privileged in wealth and intelligence, but what of it? There is a lot he can still teach both Diana and Clark about the underlying strengths of humanity. His overwhelming will is the core of his strength, and that isn't something Clark's been shown to possess on a regular basis. I think Clark and Diana both need that, though. What BM would get out of the relationships with Diana and Clark is unclear since BM is written so schizophrenically. Sometimes he is bitter and alone, and having such a person open his heart would be wonderful to read, especially if it was through his ties to Clark and Diana. It would be a more personal and meaningful salvation and a reflection of what superheroes do on a larger stage.
    Obviously, their bonds shouldn't begin and end with BM and their net should be far wider, but BM should be important to them in a good way. As they should be for him.

  4. #109
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radone View Post
    And that interweaving of the lives Diana and Clark live with those around them is one of the issues the writers will have to develop. The new 52 is still less than a year old, even if the characters are young adults. They're still finding their place in the world. Of course, DC could go a different direction with Diana and Clark. If they turn them dark simply to redeem them in some shallow manner later, I won't be interested. But, if the powers that be allow Diana and Clark to form deep bonds with others, then the romantic feelings the two may have for one another right now won't be a problem. It could actually lead to great storytelling.
    Well, that's it, isn't it? You have recognized, it seems, that right now the storytelling could legitimately go either way. The idea that Diana's and Clark's recent habit for pushing humans away could develop into something more problematic isn't out of the realm of possibility. It is not wrong, in other words, to speculate about them traveling a darker road in the future.

    Obviously, their bonds shouldn't begin and end with BM and their net should be far wider, but BM should be important to them in a good way. As they should be for him.
    I didn't say Batman couldn't be important, but he's not the best source of connection with ordinary humans. He is privileged in ways many humans are not.

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    Well, that's it, isn't it? You have recognized, it seems, that right now the storytelling could legitimately go either way. The idea that Diana's and Clark's recent habit for pushing humans away could develop into something more problematic isn't out of the realm of possibility. It is not wrong, in other words, to speculate about them traveling a darker road in the future.
    And they might very well travel that road. If they do, and somehow find a way back to what most would consider their moral core, it could be interesting, but my fear is that such a journey would happen all at once via some deus ex machina or something similarly trite.


    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    I didn't say Batman couldn't be important, but he's not the best source of connection with ordinary humans. He is privileged in ways many humans are not.
    And I didn't say or imply that you thought BM couldn't be important. I simply pointed out that Batman, because of who he is in some incarnations, could be ideal for teaching Diana and Clark quite a lot about the angels and demons in all of us - and probably in those two as well. But, no, he is not an ordinary human, but I did note Diana and Clark's net of friendships should be cast far and wide (beyond the US shores - why would people who can fly at transonic speeds limit their interactions to one country?).

  6. #111
    Senior Member ceroxide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don-Jack View Post
    "Announcing YOUNG ROMANCE: A NEW 52 VALENTINE’S DAY SPECIAL
    This February, celebrate Valentine’s Day with your favorite DC Comics characters!
    Hitting stores on February 6, YOUNG ROMANCE: A NEW 52 VALENTINE’S DAY SPECIAL #1 is a 64-page anthology-style issue that will surely get your heart pumping with excitement.
    Featuring characters such as Wonder Woman, Superman, Batgirl, Catwoman, Batwoman, Aquaman, Mera, Apollo, Midnighter, and Dick Grayson, YOUNG ROMANCE: A NEW 52 VALENTINE’S DAY SPECIAL #1 will also include perforated Valentine’s Day cards featuring the stars of its stories.

    so Barb, Selina, and Kate... 0___o

  7. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    Whenever someone claims Superman and Wonder Woman may lose touch with humanity, the idea isn't that they will lose their compassion for humans or their own "human" emotions. It is literally that they will lose touch with humanity. Like Diana pushing Steve away, both Kal and Diana will cut themselves from intimate human relationships because of their compassion and affection for them. But cutting ties like that also limits genuine contact with humans and creates the potential for a more maternalistic/paternalistic relationship with them. I know it's an Elseworlds, but Kingdom Come provides an example of this motif.
    I'm not sure I buy this argument. I think we need to be even more specific about what it means to "lose touch with humanity". Diana pushing Steve away is no different than Batman or Spider-man deferring relationships with people they consider vulnerable. So I don't see that as an example of Diana losing touch with humanity.

    Kingdom Come also doesn't fit because Clark doesn't go into exile due to his relationship with Diana. He goes into exile because he was shamed and humanity favored different heroes. In fact, it was Diana who kept encouraging Clark to return. So in this case, the opposite is true. It's their relationship that keeps them in touch with humanity because they both share the same values. I don't really see Superman and Wonder Woman losing touch with humanity at all. It's just not their character. Earth is their home and their deep motivation is compassion.

    I think the problems that may arise has less to do with them and more to do with how humanity views their relationship as well the opinions of other heroes. Luthor's argument would be more persuasive to the public. They wouldn't lose touch with humanity because if they do, they are no longer themselves. They are no longer heroes. What are they going to do? Move to Themyscira or the Kent farm and live alone? They won't lose touch with humanity, but humanity might lose touch with them and push them away.
    Last edited by fanboiii; 11-13-2012 at 01:46 PM.
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  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Addams View Post
    Ah, nothing says romance like a woman ass tightly wrapped in a star covered blue swimsuit.

    Golden age of mankind, let me tell ya.
    A Valentine's Day gift of Olympian proportions, lemme tell you!

  9. #114
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanboiii View Post
    I'm not sure I buy this argument. I think we need to be even more specific about what it means to "lose touch with humanity". Diana pushing Steve away is no different than Batman or Spider-man deferring relationships with people they consider vulnerable. So I don't see that as an example of Diana losing touch with humanity.
    If the only relationships Diana or Clark defer are deep relationships -- romantic or platonic -- with ordinary humans, then they are isolating themselves or at least limiting the type of contact they have with humans. It is one thing to hold onto one's love for humanity and one's own human emotions, but it's another thing to eschew significant attachments with humans out of fear and a sense of protectiveness.

    Kingdom Come also doesn't fit because Clark doesn't go into exile due to his relationship with Diana. He goes into exile because he was shamed and humanity favored different heroes.
    Kal isolated himself from humanity because he lost Clark. By the end of the book, he found Clark again. He lost faith in humanity because they decided they preferred darker and grittier heroes to his boy scout brand. But, ultimately, what disconnected Kal from his humanity was his isolation from it, which was driven by his belief that he could no longer help humans or heroes who could not appreciate his inspirational leadership. Had he chosen to work with humans rather than push them away, the events of Kingdom Come likely would not have happened. I believe Clark's epiphany at the end of the story is key: "The problems we face still exist. We're not going to solve them for you -- we're going to solve them with you -- but living among you. We will not longer impose our power on humanity." It's the working with humans part that is important. Heroes like Diana and Kal can come dangerously close to losing touch with humanity if they decide humanity is better protected if they personally cease to have any deep or genuine connections with it. Humans, in other words, should be treated as equals who have the right to participate in and engage with their own salvation.

    In fact, it was Diana who kept encouraging Clark to return. So in this case, the opposite is true. It's their relationship that keeps them in touch with humanity because they both share the same values. I don't really see Superman and Wonder Woman losing touch with humanity at all. It's just not their character. Earth is their home and their deep motivation is compassion.
    Diana encouraged Clark to return, but she also encouraged Clark to do some deeply problematic things in Kingdom Come before both of them were humbled by events.

    I think the problems that may arise has less to do with them and more to do with how humanity views their relationship as well the opinions of other heroes. Luthor's argument would be more persuasive to the public. They wouldn't lose touch with humanity because if they do, they are no longer themselves. They are no longer heroes. What are they going to do? Move to Themyscira or the Kent farm and live alone? They won't lose touch with humanity, but humanity might lose touch with them and push them away.
    The suggestion that Superman and Wonder Woman would isolate themselves completely from humanity is not even close to what I suggested was problematic about their actions of late. They can still live amongst humans while being disconnected from them. Clark lives and works in Metropolis, but are there any humans in the city with whom he shares a complex and honest bond? What about Diana? What ordinary humans are her close friends or confidantes? There are men and women in the real world who live among humans yet are still suffering from alienation; they do not have completely open, honest, and emotionally significant relationships with other people. Diana and Clark are pushing humans away because they seem to believe humans should be treated like precious glass. It's an understandable decision, but it's still a decision driven by fear that comes dangerously close to paternalism.

    Clark and Diana would lose touch with humanity because they are afraid to touch humanity. Their love for humanity and their own human emotions are actually driving their isolation from that which they love and are at their cores. Ordinary humans do not have the luxury of bubble wrapping themselves to escape their weakness and mortality. The humans that should inspire heroes like the members of the Justice League are those ordinary men and women who essentially risk their lives every day knowing they are vulnerable. If they can approach life with that kind of courage, why can't god-like heroes like Superman and Wonder Woman do the same? Will they continue to chose to fight for us or will they embrace the idea that we're all in this together? Humans and heroes ideally should both be able to choose what risks are worth taking, what loves are worth dying for, and what is worth fighting for.

  10. #115

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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    If the only relationships Diana or Clark defer are deep relationships -- romantic or platonic -- with ordinary humans, then they are isolating themselves or at least limiting the type of contact they have with humans. It is one thing to hold onto one's love for humanity and one's own human emotions, but it's another thing to eschew significant attachments with humans out of fear and a sense of protectiveness.



    Kal isolated himself from humanity because he lost Clark. By the end of the book, he found Clark again. He lost faith in humanity because they decided they preferred darker and grittier heroes to his boy scout brand. But, ultimately, what disconnected Kal from his humanity was his isolation from it, which was driven by his belief that he could no longer help humans or heroes who could not appreciate his inspirational leadership. Had he chosen to work with humans rather than push them away, the events of Kingdom Come likely would not have happened. I believe Clark's epiphany at the end of the story is key: "The problems we face still exist. We're not going to solve them for you -- we're going to solve them with you -- but living among you. We will not longer impose our power on humanity." It's the working with humans part that is important. Heroes like Diana and Kal can come dangerously close to losing touch with humanity if they decide humanity is better protected if they personally cease to have any deep or genuine connections with it. Humans, in other words, should be treated as equals who have the right to participate in and engage with their own salvation.



    Diana encouraged Clark to return, but she also encouraged Clark to do some deeply problematic things in Kingdom Come before both of them were humbled by events.



    The suggestion that Superman and Wonder Woman would isolate themselves completely from humanity is not even close to what I suggested was problematic about their actions of late. They can still live amongst humans while being disconnected from them. Clark lives and works in Metropolis, but are there any humans in the city with whom he shares a complex and honest bond? What about Diana? What ordinary humans are her close friends or confidantes? There are men and women in the real world who live among humans yet are still suffering from alienation; they do not have completely open, honest, and emotionally significant relationships with other people. Diana and Clark are pushing humans away because they seem to believe humans should be treated like precious glass. It's an understandable decision, but it's still a decision driven by fear that comes dangerously close to paternalism.

    Clark and Diana would lose touch with humanity because they are afraid to touch humanity. Their love for humanity and their own human emotions are actually driving their isolation from that which they love and are at their cores. Ordinary humans do not have the luxury of bubble wrapping themselves to escape their weakness and mortality. The humans that should inspire heroes like the members of the Justice League are those ordinary men and women who essentially risk their lives every day knowing they are vulnerable. If they can approach life with that kind of courage, why can't god-like heroes like Superman and Wonder Woman do the same? Will they continue to chose to fight for us or will they embrace the idea that we're all in this together? Humans and heroes ideally should both be able to choose what risks are worth taking, what loves are worth dying for, and what is worth fighting for.


    Superman used to almost crippled by his fear for Lois. He never even wanted to have a child because of it. Lois was at times never able to understand what he goes through. Most writers cite that Superman would be very alone and we have seen it and he is even more reinforced how alien he is when he has to be careful around Lois etc etc...or practically listen to her heartbeat to save her. He lives to save her. Is that really that liberating for him? You will argue he loved her. He'll do what he has to do. Well if he loves Diana, Lana, whoever, he would do what needs to be done.

    Yoru argument is rather weird since many human heroes behave exactly the same way...and they are fine. The JL is full of people they have as close bonds with and WW and SM had lot of human allies.

    The story has just begun and you'r making sweeping judgements. As usual. You say they will lose touch with humanity. You don't know that and when Lois or Steve kicks the bucket you're already quick to condemn these heroes as crippled that they can't live and value the world they live in or even have healthy relationships. It is a misnomer they both need normal civilans to appreciate humanity. Superman's parents have shown they can be warm and they are aliens essentially. You're condemning actually cultural differences in terms of Diana case. Nothing else. Because she's stronger than the average woman does not mean she can't teach anyone, meta or human, anything.

    The whole DCU has changed and yet I feel you're keep talking about it based on old canon. No to mention you don't get WW and you did say you never cared for her much as a character when asked recently on the Superman forum. So that explains that.
    Last edited by kylesgirl; 11-13-2012 at 03:24 PM.

  11. #116
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kylesgirl View Post
    Superman used to almost crippled by his fear for Lois.
    No, he wasn't. He left her behind on Earth for a year and then left her while he walked across America the following year. If he was crippled by his fear for Lois, then don't you think he would never let her out of his sight? By exaggerating, you make a weak argument.

    He never even wanted to have a child because of it.
    Is that why it was Clark who had to convince Lois to adopt Chris?

    Lois was at times never able to understand what he goes through.
    Yet most of the time she did. More importantly, she was able to provide him with the sort of outsider's perspective that helped him see things in a new light -- a light that helped eased his confusion and concerns more often than not.

    Most writers cite that Superman would be very alone and we have seen it and he is even more reinforced how alien he is when he has to be careful around Lois etc etc...or practically listen to her heartbeat to save her.
    Superman was not alone when he was married to Lois nor was he ever extraordinarily careful around her. Clark liked to listen to Lois's heartbeat because he found it comforting. To twist that into something nefarious is sick.

    He lives to save her. Is that really that liberating for him?
    He does not live to save Lois. During the marriage, for instance, Superman saved Lois only an average of three times a year. And if you think not being married to Lois or in love with Lois will ever stop Superman from caring about saving her, then you are kidding yourself. Superman does not feel trapped by his mission to save people, including Lois, from harm. That's what he loves doing. It is liberating for Superman to be Superman.

    Yoru argument is rather weird since many human heroes behave exactly the same way...and they are fine. The JL is full of people they have as close bonds with and WW and SM had lot of human allies.
    The Justice League is full of humans who are not ordinary humans: they are heroes part of an elite team with special skills or supernaturally bestowed powers. Superman and Wonder Woman have human acquaintances, but they do not have significant bonds with humans. Which humans, for example, are Diana's closest friends? How many humans are part of Clark's inner circle who know him inside and out? What humans can Clark and Diana turn to when they want to be completely open and exposed? Haven't both Clark and Diana already admitted to each other that they feel disconnected from the people they care about because of who they are?

    The story has just begun and you'r making sweeping judgements. As usual.
    By not opening yourself up to the possibility that Clark and Diana could lose touch with humanity, are you not making a sweeping judgment?

    You don't know that and when Lois or Steve kicks the bucket you're already quick to condemn these heroes as crippled that they can't live and value the world they live in or even have healthy relationships.
    Clark and Diana do not have close personal relationships with humans, which I don't believe is healthy or productive. True heroes, according to Joseph Campbell, follow their bliss; denying themselves the connections they crave to have with humans because of fear is not in their best interest or humanity's best interest.

    It is a misnomer they both need normal civilans to appreciate humanity.
    It's a misnomer because I have not said anything of the sort. I've said that Clark and Diana will never lose their appreciation for humanity; however, in many ways, it is their appreciation and love for humans that drives their desire to push them away. Diana and Clark need to go beyond appreciating humans to accepting humans' choice to take risks for themselves, their loved ones, and their world. When I appreciate people, I don't push them away or put them behind protective barriers to sooth my conscience. I like seeing them, interacting with them, and making them a real part of my life.

    Superman's parents have shown they can be warm and they are aliens essentially.
    Yes, they have, which is why they are a model for the type of relationships I believe Clark should develop with humans. I would like for Clark to have a similarly close relationship -- romantic or platonic -- with an ordinary human or humans in the here and now.

    You're condemning actually cultural differences in terms of Diana case. Nothing else. Because she's stronger than the average woman does not mean she can't teach anyone, meta or human, anything.
    What? I never said Diana's cultural heritage prevents her from being able to teach anyone anything nor have I suggested her strength is in any way a hindrance to her heroic mission.

    The whole DCU has changed and yet I feel you're keep talking about it based on old canon.
    What old canon have I mentioned, and while you consider that question also consider what old canon you yourself dragged into this discussion to make your own points?

    No to mention you don't get WW and you did say you never cared for her much as a character when asked recently on the Superman forum. So that explains that.
    What evidence do you have that I don't "get" Wonder Woman? I understand the character just fine and I like her as a character. I'm not a big fan, though, and never have been. It's not because I don't like her, admire her, or understand her. Despite having read a decent number of Wonder Woman canon, her stories just don't interest me much.
    Last edited by misslane38; 11-13-2012 at 04:18 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    If the only relationships Diana or Clark defer are deep relationships -- romantic or platonic -- with ordinary humans, then they are isolating themselves or at least limiting the type of contact they have with humans. It is one thing to hold onto one's love for humanity and one's own human emotions, but it's another thing to eschew significant attachments with humans out of fear and a sense of protectiveness.
    That's not their only relationships, and I don't think Clark or Diana differentiates between humans and meta-humans when it comes to compassion and collectivism. Clark socializes with everyone and has Pete as a friend. Same goes with Diana. She will go out of her way to help anyone, human or otherwise. Diana didn't sever Trevor because he was human. It was because he was vulnerable, and she has a great sense of responsibility. He could have been any species.

    Kal isolated himself from humanity because he lost Clark. By the end of the book, he found Clark again. He lost faith in humanity because they decided they preferred darker and grittier heroes to his boy scout brand. But, ultimately, what disconnected Kal from his humanity was his isolation from it, which was driven by his belief that he could no longer help humans or heroes who could not appreciate his inspirational leadership. Had he chosen to work with humans rather than push them away, the events of Kingdom Come likely would not have happened. I believe Clark's epiphany at the end of the story is key: "The problems we face still exist. We're not going to solve them for you -- we're going to solve them with you -- but living among you. We will not longer impose our power on humanity." It's the working with humans part that is important. Heroes like Diana and Kal can come dangerously close to losing touch with humanity if they decide humanity is better protected if they personally cease to have any deep or genuine connections with it. Humans, in other words, should be treated as equals who have the right to participate in and engage with their own salvation.
    Clark isolated himself because he lost his role as Superman after Magog did what he refuses to do: kill. He lost humanity's support. "Years ago, I let those I swore to protect drive me away."

    He didn't lose faith in humanity, which is why he stayed on Earth. Then after Diana implored him to see what the world was like, he intervened shortly after. The only reason he isolated himself was because he felt unwanted. It was never a matter of losing touch of faith with humanity. It was a disagreement in direction which he respected and therefore removed himself, but he couldn't sit idly when things got too far.

    Diana encouraged Clark to return, but she also encouraged Clark to do some deeply problematic things in Kingdom Come before both of them were humbled by events.
    No she didn't. You're referring to the Gulag right? She acted on her own which Clark disagreed with. Everyone was humbled after Shazam's sacrifice. Both humans and metahumans. It wasn't isolated to or specifically directed at Superman and Wonder Woman.

    The suggestion that Superman and Wonder Woman would isolate themselves completely from humanity is not even close to what I suggested was problematic about their actions of late. They can still live amongst humans while being disconnected from them. Clark lives and works in Metropolis, but are there any humans in the city with whom he shares a complex and honest bond? What about Diana? What ordinary humans are her close friends or confidantes? There are men and women in the real world who live among humans yet are still suffering from alienation; they do not have completely open, honest, and emotionally significant relationships with other people. Diana and Clark are pushing humans away because they seem to believe humans should be treated like precious glass. It's an understandable decision, but it's still a decision driven by fear that comes dangerously close to paternalism.

    Clark and Diana would lose touch with humanity because they are afraid to touch humanity. Their love for humanity and their own human emotions are actually driving their isolation from that which they love and are at their cores. Ordinary humans do not have the luxury of bubble wrapping themselves to escape their weakness and mortality. The humans that should inspire heroes like the members of the Justice League are those ordinary men and women who essentially risk their lives every day knowing they are vulnerable. If they can approach life with that kind of courage, why can't god-like heroes like Superman and Wonder Woman do the same? Will they continue to chose to fight for us or will they embrace the idea that we're all in this together? Humans and heroes ideally should both be able to choose what risks are worth taking, what loves are worth dying for, and what is worth fighting for.
    How many humans have "complex and honest bond"s with other humans? Most people only have less than a handful of truly close friends. Clark and Diana are really no different when it comes to relating and having relationships with others. Emotions aren't human. Emotions are universal. The Green Lantern mythos spells that out.

    Superman and Wonder Woman aren't stopping anyone from choosing what risks are worth taking. They're choosing their personal responsibility. Steve Trevor can keep trying to get close to Diana if he wants. She didn't lock him in a safe. If Diana doesn't feel comfortable with the arrangement, than that's her right to not get involved. I'm sure other women have turned down men that they thought were weak, unsafe, or liability. It's actually more of an issue with Wonder Woman than Superman, since Clark was surrounded and grew up with humans. Wonder Woman grew up isolated by Amazons. She grew up separate from humans and human culture. In that sense, she's more alien than Superman.
    Last edited by fanboiii; 11-13-2012 at 04:10 PM.
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  13. #118
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanboiii View Post
    That's not their only relationships, and I don't think Clark or Diana differentiates between humans and meta-humans when it comes to compassion and collectivism. Clark socializes with everyone and has Pete as a friend. Same goes with Diana. She will go out of her way to help anyone, human or otherwise. Diana didn't sever Trevor because he was human. It was because he was vulnerable, and she has a great sense of responsibility. He could have been any species.
    Clark socializes with humans, but he does not have ongoing deep personal relationships with them. The same is true for Diana. Can you name any human either Diana or Clark currently interact with on a regular basis who they are comfortable opening up to about everything? Severing ties with any member of any species out of fear is a decision based in fear. Heroes live in hope.

    Clark isolated himself because he lost his role as Superman after Magog did what he refuses to do: kill. He lost humanity's support. "Years ago, I let those I swore to protect drive me away."
    He lost humanity's support, so he just gave up on them? He pushed humanity away, and his isolation and sense of superiority created the conditions for something close to an apocalypse. Instead of working with humans -- helping them to see the error of their ways -- Clark chose to reject humanity because they rejected him. What would have happened if Clark had had a human by his side to offer him their perspective; to help him see their side or give him hope that humans were still worth fighting for?

    He didn't lose faith in humanity, which is why he stayed on Earth. Then after Diana implored him to see what the world was like, he intervened shortly after. The only reason he isolated himself was because he felt unwanted. It was never a matter of losing touch of faith with humanity. It was a disagreement in direction which he respected and therefore removed himself, but he couldn't sit idly when things got too far.
    If Clark truly had not lost faith in humanity, he would never have left them to fend for themselves with flawed heroes as their only protection. If Diana was a true hero and leader, she would not have needed Superman to return to public life to change things. She would have led the charge herself.

    No she didn't. You're referring to the Gulag right? She acted on her own which Clark disagreed with. Everyone was humbled after Shazam's sacrifice. Both humans and metahumans. It wasn't isolated to or specifically directed at Superman and Wonder Woman.
    Superman and Wonder Woman were the de facto leaders, were they not? Their abysmal failure to lead is what led to the humbling catastrophic cataclysm in the first place. Read this analysis of the story. It's illuminating.

    How many humans have "complex and honest bond"s with other humans? Most people only have less than a handful of truly close friends. Clark and Diana are really no different when it comes to relating and having relationships with others. Emotions aren't human. Emotions are universal. The Green Lantern mythos spells that out.
    Clark and Diana don't even have a "handful" of truly close friends. I have not once suggested Diana and Clark need close human relationships in order to relate to humans on an emotional level. What I've said is that isolating themselves from close human relationships robs them of the chance to fulfill a desire their own hearts have to connect with humans. In addition, by cutting themselves off from these sorts of significant human relationships, Clark and Diana lose the chance to get an ordinary human's perspective on their innermost thoughts, feelings, and fears. It's not about emotions, specifically, it's about seeing themselves -- their most exposed selves -- through the eyes of an ordinary human being.

    Superman and Wonder Woman aren't stopping anyone from choosing what risks are worth taking. They're choosing their personal responsibility. Steve Trevor can keep trying to get close to Diana if he wants. She didn't lock him in a safe. If Diana doesn't feel comfortable with the arrangement, than that's her right to not get involved. I'm sure other women have turned down men that they thought were weak, unsafe, or liability.
    Wonder Woman literally got Steve fired from his job as League liaison. He did not get to make that choice for himself. Clark has not given a relationship with Lois a chance because he believes he must continue to maintain his loner persona to keep her safely away from him. He waited so long, she found love with someone else.

    It's actually more of an issue with Wonder Woman than Superman, since Clark was surrounded and grew up with humans. Wonder Woman grew up isolated by Amazons. She grew up separate from humans and human culture. In that sense, she's more alien than Superman.
    She is more alien than Superman. Perhaps, then, it might be good for Diana to stop pushing humans away.

  14. #119
    Infâme et fier de l'être Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    How is the fact that Superman is hooking up with Wonder Woman even related to their "humanity"? "Humanity" isn't about interacting with other homo sapiens, it's about behaving according to a certain set of values we define as positive. Kryptonians and Amazons have always been portrayed as humans with superpowers. Even the cold bastards that were the Kryptonians during Byrne's tenure have been more portrayed as repressing their emotions (like some societies would) and not as not having ones. There's litteraly nothing Diana could learn about "humanity" from real humans she couldn't learn from her sisters (well, appart from the whole "what's a man" thing). As for Superman, he had enough loving parents and good friends in his life to not become into Dr Manhattan just because he isn't with a normal girl for 5 years (how can he even be pysically attracted to any of them anyway? Isn't that zoophilia? Not that it's any different with Diana mind you, but I'm sure if I was starting to fall in love with a monkey, you would all think I'm some freak. And the monkey is probably closer to us than Superman). Lana Lang has clearly been implied to be his high school love after all, so it's like he has never been with a regular girl.
    If anything, Superman and Wonder Woman have always been more "human" than the real humans. We just have to accept that, in the DCU (and probably in real life, but that's another point), humans just aren't special.
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  15. #120
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    How is the fact that Superman is hooking up with Wonder Woman even related to their "humanity"? "Humanity" isn't about interacting with other homo sapiens, it's about behaving according to a certain set of values we define as positive.
    It's related to their humanity because their humanity is what drives them to want to connect with humans on a deep emotional level. To deny themselves that connection out of fear is denying Clark and Diana the chance to follow their bliss, which is the ultimate goal of life and a critical characteristic of an actualized hero.

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