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  1. #91
    Senior Member Robotman4's Avatar
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    Batman is with a new girl so damn often. Do Wonder Woman fans really want her to be Bat's fling of the week?

  2. #92
    Veteran Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Superman's not going to start seeing himself as above everyone else just because he's dating someone as powerful or at least close to as powerful as he is. If he rejects the idea when he himself has such extreme power, why would he come to think of things differently because he's with Diana, someone who loves humanity as much as he does? Make Superman a pathetic pushover with someone with the values of Maxima then I might be able to see it. But as it stands neither are that mentally weak. Their mutual lamentation is over an inability for strong personal relationships, but I don't see how that lends to them turning their backs on humanity as a whole upon finding one another. It just flies in the face of everything they're about. A huge part of their appeal is their unwavering care for a people that they are not part of. Two people with those similar values get together...and that compatibility actually causes those values to change? So if that did turn out to be the direction, it would probably have to automatically rank up there as the biggest writing boner of Johns' career. I give him more credit.

    On the other hand I could see plots where others, who don't understand their integrity, think that and become wary of them as a couple for it. Namely the government. Probably other heroes since in five years not many seem to have strong relationships yet outside a select few. But shame on Batman in particular if he doesn't get at least Superman's integrity as a person yet, considering that they were alluded to be pretty close now. There's already been a teased future fight with Superman and Batman but my strong hope is that it has to do with Pandora's Box and what he's planning on doing with it.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 11-13-2012 at 12:07 AM.

  3. #93
    Needs more lesbian RandomFalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mecegirl View Post


    I laughed.....
    Ahahahahahaha!!

    I found that a lot funnier than I probably should have.

  4. #94
    Veteran Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    I saw Mecegirl's post hours ago, and I didn't get what she was laughing at so I just passed it by. It took this long for me to notice, lol

  5. #95
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Superman's not going to start seeing himself as above everyone else just because he's dating someone as powerful or at least close to as powerful as he is. If he rejects the idea when he himself has such extreme power, why would he come to think of things differently because he's with Diana, someone who loves humanity as much as he does? Make Superman a pathetic pushover with someone with the values of Maxima then I might be able to see it. But as it stands neither are that mentally weak. Their mutual lamentation is over an inability for strong personal relationships, but I don't see how that lends to them turning their backs on humanity as a whole upon finding one another. It just flies in the face of everything they're about. A huge part of their appeal is their unwavering care for a people that they are not part of. Two people with those similar values get together...and that compatibility actually causes those values to change? So if that did turn out to be the direction, it would probably have to automatically rank up there as the biggest writing boner of Johns' career. I give him more credit.
    Sure, but there are plenty of elseworld type stories where it all goes horribly wrong.

    Take Justice League Animated. The whole premise for a major storyline is that on a parallel Earth Superman and the Justice League becomes dictators. This is not the evil anti-matter universe and they dont have beards. They just go bad.

    In the last few years I have seen writers have Captain America authorize torture, Cyclops go nuts and kill Professor X, Wonder Woman snap Max Lord's neck, Batman build a satellite while fueled by paranoia, and Iron Man become an egomaniac that brings the world to the edge of ruin. Do I think they would make Superman go dark? Well, its not like its without precedent. That's the whole point of the New 52 isnt it? To shake things up, keep the fans on their toes? So yes, I think they would do it.

    On the other hand I could see plots where others, who don't understand their integrity, think that and become wary of them as a couple for it. Namely the government. Probably other heroes since in five years not many seem to have strong relationships yet outside a select few. But shame on Batman in particular if he doesn't get at least Superman's integrity as a person yet, considering that they were alluded to be pretty close now. There's already been a teased future fight with Superman and Batman but my strong hope is that it has to do with Pandora's Box and what he's planning on doing with it.
    You mean Wonder Woman's integrity when she carved up Hal while putting an entire suburb of civilians in mortal danger and forced Batman to have them evacuated?

    And if recent stories have shown anything its that the current trend is to have heroes fight other heroes more than villains. AVX was a terrible storyline dependent on good guys behaving largely like idiots. Superman and Wonder Woman starting to think the world would be a better place with them in charge does not seem like that much of a leap in the current climate.
    Irene Adler: “I would have you right here on this desk until you begged for mercy twice.”
    Sherlock: “I’ve never begged for mercy in my life.”
    Irene: “Twice.”


  6. #96
    Veteran Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Elseworlds is never a good comparison for in-continuity stuff. Elseworlds has that caveat that its not in main continuity, thus why what-if stories exist in the first place, so things can be done OOC with characters.

    But with that said no, none of the things you're suggesting are without precedent, I don't dispute that by any means, its just like I said I'm just giving Johns more credit than to do something so stupid. Because for all the examples of pre-Flashpoint grimdark and continual Marvel grimdark, nothing like this had been alluded to yet on the page in regards to the relationship direction. Yes I know there was of course the ominous warning with the Booster situation, but as I've said many times in the past to me that whole scene reeks of red herring. Perhaps I'll end up very wrong. But as of today, I don't find the evidence compelling that either character will lose touch with humanity.

    As for Diana and integrity, the Hal situation was not her best moment. I didn't care for it either (the people being in danger, have no problem with her and Hal getting into a scrum). But there's that and then there's losing your love for humanity (which HAS been confirmed both in WW and JL, she's stated in both she loves everyone) because you start dating someone. Its a molehill and a mountain comparatively.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 11-13-2012 at 03:12 AM.

  7. #97
    Senior Member lariatofhestia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    I wonder which one will start to lose touch with their humanity first?
    Biggest piece of nonsense ever. These two heroess are KNOWN for compassion and values etc. Superman was reared by humans...Morrison has gone to enormous lengths to show that Clark cares deeply. Diana is from this planet. Not Olympus. Her nurtuing is still the Amazons, she found out about her paternity later. She's shown how very human she is by the way she behaves and she what she cares about. To be human is not to be perfect. It's such a silly argument detractors like to use. How can any fan who knows these two characters and how they have operated assume they would tun their backs on their home? And you talk of humanity as if it is the yardstick for all things great. It can be measured as all things worse too ...and it's a kind of insult to all other sentient life in the DCU. Plus to be human is to err, is it not? And when Diana last dated a human (Tom) that was a disaster.

    DC has barely begun to explore the dynamic between them and this is not the old universe. And Batman is doing Selina and Diana is younger as is Clark and its different dynamics. WW is not interested in Batman romantically. She was dating Steve. Now she's feeling stuff for Supes. That's where it's at.

  8. #98
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Elseworlds is never a good comparison for in-continuity stuff. Elseworlds has that caveat that its not in main continuity, thus why what-if stories exist in the first place, so things can be done OOC with characters.
    If the new 52 has shown anything, its the only difference between an Elseworld and a reboot is how long it goes on for.

    But with that said no, none of the things you're suggesting are without precedent, I don't dispute that by any means, its just like I said I'm just giving Johns more credit than to do something so stupid. Because for all the examples of pre-Flashpoint grimdark and continual Marvel grimdark, nothing like this had been alluded to yet on the page in regards to the relationship direction. Yes I know there was of course the ominous warning with the Booster situation, but as I've said many times in the past to me that whole scene reeks of red herring. Perhaps I'll end up very wrong. But as of today, I don't find the evidence compelling that either character will lose touch with humanity.
    I dont see any evidence yet either, which means I have a theory but not a prediction. But what you and I might call stupid, another person might call genius. Take Civil War - in retrospect it got me reading Marvel again after 20 years of only reading DC, but lots of people hated it and still do. And apparently while Superman is more iconic than Iron Man and so plausibly more locked into his character type many people have been talking/complaining about the way he acts in some of the books - like an ass, is one description I have seen.

    The real question is NOT what would Superman do, but what are the writers prepared to have him do. They have already shown that apparently they are prepared to have him ignore Lois and hump Wonder Woman. That's a pretty big divergence. Would they risk alienating his fan base by having him go dark. Or doing that with Wonder Woman? If they thought they could sell more books that way I think they would.

    As for Diana and integrity, the Hal situation was not her best moment. I didn't care for it either (the people being in danger, have no problem with her and Hal getting into a scrum). But there's that and then there's losing your love for humanity (which HAS been confirmed both in WW and JL, she's stated in both she loves everyone) because you start dating someone. Its a molehill and a mountain comparatively.
    Again, its not the characters actions but how they writers approach the characters. That kind of brawl in a civilan location never would have happened three years ago. But it did, becuase DC is approaching these characters very differently. That is your mountain - the mountain of evidence for just how different they are prepared to write the characters.
    Irene Adler: “I would have you right here on this desk until you begged for mercy twice.”
    Sherlock: “I’ve never begged for mercy in my life.”
    Irene: “Twice.”


  9. #99
    Veteran Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    I feel you, but but to me there's levels of just how far they're willing to go. With Johns, despite present day has these characters with 5 years under their belt, he's clearly still writing them as noticeably younger mentally than their prior counterparts, since they still are younger. So trying to look at it from the writer's POV, I could see that being the justification in his mind of that immature and brash moment (I'd like her to have more control at this point like a lot of other people, but again I'm looking at possible justifications on Johns' end). But could I see that same writer making her lose her sense of humanity entirely, or Superman for that matter? I can only theorize, can't get into the head of a writer definitively, but from what I've seen to this point my answer would be no.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 11-13-2012 at 04:25 AM.

  10. #100
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    I feel you, but but to me there's levels of just how far they're willing to go. With Johns, despite present day has these characters with 5 years under their belt, he's clearly still writing them as noticeably younger mentally than their prior counterparts, since they still are younger. So trying to look at it from the writer's POV, I could see that being the justification in his mind of that immature and brash moment (I'd like her to have more control at this point like a lot of other people, but again I'm looking at possible justifications on Johns' end). But could I see that same writer making her lose her sense of humanity entirely, or Superman for that matter? I can only theorize, can't get into the head of a writer definitively, but from what I've seen to this point my answer would be no.
    I think it will be a process. DC will have learned from Marvel and have an idea plotted out - not necessarily the details from what I have seen. It wont happen overnight, it will be a gradual thing. This Trinity War will just be the first link in a chain of evenst. Superman was blue for years. It took year more to get from the first issue of Civil War to the final issue of The Siege.

    And you know the Batfans are going to eat it up. Batman standing as the defender of humanity against the super-powered types.

    They wont send Diana and Clark completely dark like they have Cyclops but they will put them on the path. Like Kingdom Come spread out over a much longer time frame. I wont be surprised if we see a Batman/Luthor alliance when things really start to get out of hand, probably with Booster Gold doing some more time travelling to establish the relationship between this story and KC.
    Irene Adler: “I would have you right here on this desk until you begged for mercy twice.”
    Sherlock: “I’ve never begged for mercy in my life.”
    Irene: “Twice.”


  11. #101
    Senior Member Zagreus's Avatar
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    I doubt it will go that way, but hey, if it does, I'd read that story. I like Batman saves the world from dehumanized supers stories ;) Course, I'm loving the Azz WW, so I don't want to see that derailed, and I can't imagine DC would want to interfere too much with his story arcs either. "I love everyone" to "Let's rule the world because we're better 'cause we gots powers" is quite a leap.

  12. #102
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lariatofhestia View Post
    Biggest piece of nonsense ever. These two heroess are KNOWN for compassion and values etc. Superman was reared by humans...Morrison has gone to enormous lengths to show that Clark cares deeply. Diana is from this planet. Not Olympus. Her nurtuing is still the Amazons, she found out about her paternity later. She's shown how very human she is by the way she behaves and she what she cares about. To be human is not to be perfect. It's such a silly argument detractors like to use.
    Whenever someone claims Superman and Wonder Woman may lose touch with humanity, the idea isn't that they will lose their compassion for humans or their own "human" emotions. It is literally that they will lose touch with humanity. Like Diana pushing Steve away, both Kal and Diana will cut themselves from intimate human relationships because of their compassion and affection for them. But cutting ties like that also limits genuine contact with humans and creates the potential for a more maternalistic/paternalistic relationship with them. I know it's an Elseworlds, but Kingdom Come provides an example of this motif.

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    Whenever someone claims Superman and Wonder Woman may lose touch with humanity, the idea isn't that they will lose their compassion for humans or their own "human" emotions. It is literally that they will lose touch with humanity. Like Diana pushing Steve away, both Kal and Diana will cut themselves from intimate human relationships because of their compassion and affection for them. But cutting ties like that also limits genuine contact with humans and creates the potential for a more maternalistic/paternalistic relationship with them. I know it's an Elseworlds, but Kingdom Come provides an example of this motif.
    Thank you misslane for putting this out there, I wanted to say it but I'm terrible with words it seems lol

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    Whenever someone claims Superman and Wonder Woman may lose touch with humanity, the idea isn't that they will lose their compassion for humans or their own "human" emotions. It is literally that they will lose touch with humanity. Like Diana pushing Steve away, both Kal and Diana will cut themselves from intimate human relationships because of their compassion and affection for them. But cutting ties like that also limits genuine contact with humans and creates the potential for a more maternalistic/paternalistic relationship with them. I know it's an Elseworlds, but Kingdom Come provides an example of this motif.
    Choosing someone other than a human as your love interest does not necessitate a loss of ties to Humanity. It can happen, but it doesn't have to, at least as you imply it would. There are, after all, many different ways that people-and superheroes-relate to one another. Among the most important is the idea of fraternity. There is no reason deep friendships with humans based on this notion of commitment without romantic love, this idea of fraternity could easily allow both WW and SM to remain tied to humanity. I would love to see this concept explored between BM and SM.

  15. #105
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radone View Post
    Choosing someone other than a human as your love interest does not necessitate a loss of ties to Humanity. It can happen, but it doesn't have to, at least as you imply it would. There are, after all, many different ways that people-and superheroes-relate to one another. Among the most important is the idea of fraternity. There is no reason deep friendships with humans based on this notion of commitment without romantic love, this idea of fraternity could easily allow both WW and SM to remain tied to humanity. I would love to see this concept explored between BM and SM.
    I wasn't specifically referring to love interests, though. I'm referring to the idea that Diana and Clark have both resigned themselves to having shallow connections with humans or to pushing humans away from their lives entirely. How many human friends does Diana have, for instance? Does Clark have any deep connections with the humans in his life? Again, when I refer to "humans" I am not referring to love interests but also friends, mentors, coworkers, etc. Batman, in my opinion, is not an ideal solution to the need these characters have for human connections. The humans Diana and Clark should form significant bonds with should be so-called ordinary people. Batman is not only privileged as a wealthy man, but he is also privileged as a hero. Diana and Clark, in other words, should forge close ties with examples of the types of people they seek to protect every day.

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