Should Spiderman be allowed to mature more?

[CyberHubbs]

There's no reason why you can't have Peter doing stuff like Reign or Spider-Girl. You get your mature Peter in those stories. His regular series simply takes place before any of that happens. Everyone gets what they want.

[Jon Clark]

There's no reason why you can't have Peter doing stuff like Reign or Spider-Girl. You get your mature Peter in those stories. His regular series simply takes place before any of that happens. Everyone gets what they want.

Except some of us would prefer to see the journey, not just the destination. I don't want to see Pete or his supporting cast go from age 25 to 45 or 65 overnight. I want to see Pete get married, celebrate his 1st anniversary, find out he's going to be a dad, go through the pregnancy, celebrate the kid's 1st birthday... or get that promotion at work, visit Aunt May's grave each year, deal with being the senior super-hero on a team of former Young Avengers, and a gazillion other stories as Pete gets a little older story by story.

And as nice as those one-off stories showing Spider-man much later in his career are... they just aren't going to fill the bill.

[CyberHubbs]

Except some of us would prefer to see the journey, not just the destination. I don't want to see Pete or his supporting cast go from age 25 to 45 or 65 overnight. I want to see Pete get married, celebrate his 1st anniversary, find out he's going to be a dad, go through the pregnancy, celebrate the kid's 1st birthday... or get that promotion at work, visit Aunt May's grave each year, deal with being the senior super-hero on a team of former Young Avengers, and a gazillion other stories as Pete gets a little older story by story.

And as nice as those one-off stories showing Spider-man much later in his career are... they just aren't going to fill the bill.

It's a middle ground. I don't wanna see that kind of journey, I'm perfectly fine with him staying in his twenties and never quite getting to that point where he's some weird old guy still running around in the costume he made as a kid. Or having some baby who for the first few years is going to be utterly useless beyond pooping and getting kidnapped so that Peter can flex his protective daddy muscles. I'd rather he stay a youthful fantasy rather than some kind of literary prophet of our impending mortality. 'Cause, really, I doubt his successor will be half as interesting or half the history.

[Kevinroc]

It's a middle ground. I don't wanna see that kind of journey, I'm perfectly fine with him staying in his twenties and never quite getting to that point where he's some weird old guy still running around in the costume he made as a kid. Or having some baby who for the first few years is going to be utterly useless beyond pooping and getting kidnapped so that Peter can flex his protective daddy muscles. I'd rather he stay a youthful fantasy rather than some kind of literary prophet of our impending mortality. 'Cause, really, I doubt his successor will be half as interesting or half the history.

So I take it you don't care for Miles Morales?

[CyberHubbs]

So I take it you don't care for Miles Morales?

Over in the Ultimate U.? I like his costume, I dig the idea. But I'm also not as invested in Ultimate Peter. It'd be different if it was 616 Peter.

[Kevinroc]

Over in the Ultimate U.? I like his costume, I dig the idea. But I'm also not as invested in Ultimate Peter. It'd be different if it was 616 Peter.

I think it's this way with pretty much all major comic characters at this point. The "real" version of the characters holds precedence over their successor.

[Hancock89]

I also think they should allow our favorite web head to mature a bit more. Just assign a good writer to the book. The guy's great impact and influence both in the Marvel universe and in real life is undeniable, I personnaly think that a slightly more mature Spiderman would surely display better leadership than Captain America or Iron Man, combined. He's a figure of hope, strong will and self-sacrifice.

[CyberHubbs]

I think it's this way with pretty much all major comic characters at this point. The "real" version of the characters holds precedence over their successor.

I'm not saying you can't do stuff like Nightwing taking the cowl for a while, though. It'll always come back to Bruce in the end.

I could of course be proven wrong. Just don't feel like waiting thirty years and a baby to find out.

[Lee H]

The most likely way to change things would be to have the family expand, and to have everyone involved become a little bit older. Writers will eventually run out of ideas involving Peter and Mary Jane as the parents of newborns, so the first kid will become a toddler. And then go to nursery school. And Kindergarten. And Elementary school. And Peter and Mary Jane thus become one year older for every year the child ages. The effect will spread to the rest of the Marvel Universe, including the characters who were in their twenties and thirties during the silver age.

And the Runaways would become 20-somethings.

Hands up if you think the Runaways being in their 20s is a good idea.

[Jon Clark]

It's a middle ground. I don't wanna see that kind of journey, I'm perfectly fine with him staying in his twenties and never quite getting to that point where he's some weird old guy still running around in the costume he made as a kid. Or having some baby who for the first few years is going to be utterly useless beyond pooping and getting kidnapped so that Peter can flex his protective daddy muscles. I'd rather he stay a youthful fantasy rather than some kind of literary prophet of our impending mortality. 'Cause, really, I doubt his successor will be half as interesting or half the history.

But it's not a middle ground, anymore than if they aged Spidey to 45 and you were supposed to be satisfied with the occasional flashback tale of him in his twenties.

[Mister Mets]

Stories are supposed to have a direction. It can't be avoided--Spider-Man as we know him can't remain the same ageless bachelor forever without stretching credibility. It's already starting to hurt, just looking at the schism in the fanbase over whether Peter should be married or not. None of the supporting characters that have appeared in the series recently have had any real staying power. The logical next step in the story is so apparent that it actually undermines the events of the comic--Peter's even going back to MJ after a brief fling with Carlie, who has barely been seen since the end of the relationship. What we have here is a story in need of an ending.

Of course, it'll never happen. That's the inherent weakness of these corporate properties. Spider-Man, more than any other hero, exists on a basis of growth and development... but we can't really allow him to develop, because we always have to snap back into the status quo of the Marvel Universe circa 1970. The truth is that the illusion of change sucks. The Lee/Ditko run didn't need to produce an illusion, it was all real, palpable change. The illusion of change is what brought us the most relentlessly mediocre stories in Spidey's catalog, because characters are meant to grow and change and even, one day, reach some kind of end point. That doesn't make money, though. Peter Parker, responsible husband and father, isn't ever going to pull the cash that eternal bachelor Peter Parker will. And, as you say, fatherhood is the only status quo change that just cannot be undone.

So yeah, if you want to argue from an long-term position, it's hard to support either the marriage or fatherhood. One can either produce a satisfying conclusion and 'damage' the property, or rehash the same stories forever. I'd prefer the former... but I understand that Marvel can only really opt for the latter. So, uh, anyway. That's that. I guess you're right, Mister Mets, but I don't need to feel good about it. :/

(This post is kind of a mess... sorry about that.)

What are the most relentlessly mediocre stories in Spidey's catalog? Stern's Amazing Spider-Man run was very much Illusion of Change, and it's the best since Lee/ Ditko.

I am very tempted to make "I guess you're right, Mister Mets, but I don't need to feel good about it. :/" my sig.

Except some of us would prefer to see the journey, not just the destination. I don't want to see Pete or his supporting cast go from age 25 to 45 or 65 overnight. I want to see Pete get married, celebrate his 1st anniversary, find out he's going to be a dad, go through the pregnancy, celebrate the kid's 1st birthday... or get that promotion at work, visit Aunt May's grave each year, deal with being the senior super-hero on a team of former Young Avengers, and a gazillion other stories as Pete gets a little older story by story.

And as nice as those one-off stories showing Spider-man much later in his career are... they just aren't going to fill the bill.

Fair enough. I think there's a divide over what people see as the appeal of the character.

Some see "youth" as essential, while others argue that it's "growth."

I don't know if there is a middle ground here. The Illusion of Change would allow some developments, but usually not the stuff that can't be reversed (children, one year anniversaries, etc.)

[malachi_888]

The Bond reference at the start of the thread was rather interesting. I see Bond as something loosely tied together with every actor representing another version of BOND. I don't see a bond movie to get something close to an ongoing story. More of a general theme and some jokes& behaviors repeated. Not to forget: Action scenes.

When I used to read Spider-man it was to partake in the ongoing adventures of Peter Parker. Then It became clear it was more a ongoing about the adventures of Peter Parker. Something Bond is closer to. The problem is that I don't care about James Bonds happiness. It comes and goes in movies, only being relevant for the current movie. Is this what people want for Spider-man? For me it can't work because I will never like a narrative that is without a long term plan. I want a steady evolution of characters, a start a middle and an end.

[Leocomix]

Spider-Man works better as a young character. The writer doesn't have to be a genius to write entertaining stories. When he's older and married, it becomes very difficult to write good stories. Only two writers have achieved this: JMS and JM DM.
Aging characters ends up destroying them. We've had that experience with LSH. As much as I loved what Levitz and Giffen did, at the end it was over and I've never been able to return to that franchise.
I thought ASM was in that situation when Quesada and Wacker showed me the character could be good again.

[Neutrino]

What are the most relentlessly mediocre stories in Spidey's catalog? Stern's Amazing Spider-Man run was very much Illusion of Change, and it's the best since Lee/ Ditko.

I was thinking of the Clone Saga, the Robot Parents, Chapter One, The Other... all that junk that amounted to nothing because the story had to be reversed at the end. Stern introduced the Hobgoblin, and that wasn't an illusion. He's stayed around to become of the better Spidey villains. I'd call that change.

[Mister Mets]

I was thinking of the Clone Saga, the Robot Parents, Chapter One, The Other... all that junk that amounted to nothing because the story had to be reversed at the end. Stern introduced the Hobgoblin, and that wasn't an illusion. He's stayed around to become of the better Spidey villains. I'd call that change.

I'd say it's Illusion of Change because subsequent writers could abandon the Hobgoblin if they so chose.

The problems with the Clone Saga and Chapter One weren't that the story was reversed at the end. The execution was awful, so I'd argue that it would have been worse if the changes stuck because it would drive away new fans if they have to read that stuff in order to understand what's happened to their favorite character.