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  1. #421
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    Quote Originally Posted by KurtW95 View Post
    So, this guy is just a black Elixir?
    We really don't know what this guy is which is why a lot of this talk is just speculation.

    My whole point is that if there were more (male) characters of color in the first place, there wouldn't be such a need to fight over his sexuality, his level of power, his level of "dominance", etc.

    The problem with having only one such representation of a "minority" (i.e. a "token" IMO) is that he often carries the burden of having to represent an entire culture to the readership. Like someone pointed out earlier, rare is the time when you will see more than one such representation on any team of ANY minority group, which is exactly what leads to the problems stated above.

    "White" characters don't have to bear this burden because there is plenty of representation there. You can have the "alpha male" (Wolverine), the "homosexual" (Northstar), the "beta male" (Iceman), the "rogue criminal" (Gambit), etc, all on one team and get a good mix of "white" cultural representation all in one book.

    The only way to address this issue for minority males is to increase their representation in said books but that isn't very likely to happen given the fact that Marvel seems to kill off, render irrelevant, or villainize every single male of color in the X-Books.

    For those who say this isn't an issue, I'm sure that if the tables were turned (i.e. if the books were consisted entirely of people of color and there were only one or two white males on the teams) there would be a similar outcry from those who felt slighted by their lack of representation.

    Ultimate Spiderman's transition from a white kid to a black-latino kid ignited a firestorm of criticism upon his debut, despite it making complete sense given the demographics of New York's urban population.

    I'm not saying that ALL white people would feel as that way -- just that I'm sure if the tables were turned, many might have an entirely new perspective on the matter. Hell, you can already see the backlash under the Obama presidency -- how some are saying this isn't "traditional" America anymore just because there happens to be a "minority" in a position of power.

    Granted, Marvel has put plenty of people of color in power in their comics (Synch, Storm, Patriot, Alex Wilder, Niko, Bishop, Surge, etc) -- the problem is that, again, these characters inevitably get killed off, wallpapered, or villainized rather than being allowed to grow and evolve as leaders.
    Last edited by aja_christopher; 11-15-2012 at 02:42 AM.

  2. #422
    BUY LOKI: AGENT OF ASGARD Kieran_Frost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dkrook View Post
    Very well stated, but i think the young black male character should be very straight. If there is a need for gay characters then have logan come out the closet. I think that is a story that will have readers tuned in for months. Think of the books you could sale and the stories to tell with that event.
    What does "very" straight even mean? Not only straight, but making it clear every issue that he isn't gay and loves women? Should his first line in Uncanny X-men be "I'm not gay, by the way"? Or are you saying he should be so straight, he hates gay people?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Imakandi View Post
    Nope, Its your assessment of my commentary that is wrong,because I do indeed read comics for the stories, nothing i've written indicates otherwise, .
    If I am mistaken, apologies. But you posted that you stopped reading comics after Synch was killed, and were coming back because of this list of characters you saw in comics ("Black Panther,War Machine, New Avengers, Misty Knight, Monica Rambeau, I heard the news of Miles"). Now correct me if I'm wrong; but it does seem like your comic reading (or lack of reading) is dictated by the usage or death of black characters... i.e the stories didn't come into your post. Apologies if this is not the case; but this is what you wrote.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Imakandi View Post
    however you know these stories are character driven and most people want to see themselves portrayed in a meaningful and positive way, you stated that you wanted/hoped this new character was Gay...Why?... am I to say you're reading comics wrong because of your want/hope?
    Wanting Christopher to be gay; and having his homosexualty status effect my reading is NOT the same thing. Whether Christopher is gay or not, won't change the fact I intend to buy Uncanny X-men. It's a strong cast, with great art; and a writer who can (but isn't always) be awesome. If the comic has NO LGBT characters, I will still read it. I don't read (nor have I ever read) ANY comic because there is (or is not) an LGBT character. Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Imakandi View Post
    what if Marvel began killing off Gay characters, would you address this in a public forum? if so, should people say you're reading the books wrong, that's absurd, sorry but if you choose not to express your concerns for fear people will say its all about the story, and the inclusion of characters within those stories are of no matter, thats on you. I see it differently.
    Define "what if"? You do know Victoria Hand was killed off LAST ISSUE of New Avengers? Or Northstar being killed off three times in one month? Or Daken killed off at the end of his own series, to forward the emotion of a character who's comic it was not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daesim View Post
    He is going to sacrifice himself to save others. Tears will be shed. Lives will be changed. He'll be well remembered, and spoken of as often and fondly as Thunderbird, Changeling, Skin, Sync, Petra, Sunpyre, and Onyxx.
    Who speaks of Onyxx fondly?
    Last edited by Kieran_Frost; 11-15-2012 at 02:25 AM.
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  3. #423
    Elder Member Froggy's Avatar
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    i like onyxx

    that's my girl and if i ever hear you diss her again I will toss your baron zemo outfit in the trash kieran

    swear to Robot Dracula
    they label me a villain cause of how I express my feelings

  4. #424
    BUY LOKI: AGENT OF ASGARD Kieran_Frost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flâneur View Post
    because black people aren't allowed to be gay?
    Pretty much... many fans won't support a new gay black male; not with the same passion they would support a straight black hero.

    Quote Originally Posted by ohsnapulon5000 View Post
    there's already a gay Wolverine in the books anyhow. General Goldenclaws over in X-treme. Besides, we're living in a time of male sexual enlightenment anyhow where guys are just starting to get to the point of recognized sexual fluidity that women have been party to for the longest. There don't have to be static fixtures in the roles people play in sex because of who they find themselves rolling around with. Karma is with girls, then she's with guys, same with Storm, same with Jean. Who is to say Christopher is fixed in his sexuality. he could be just as open as Maggott and just as impermanent.
    Plus Daken. Also, was Maggott bi?
    "I don't know how to please you Lord, but I think the fact I try to please you, pleases you."

  5. #425
    C'est kinky Seresecros's Avatar
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    you back away from Onyxx, that's an American Hero you're talking about

  6. #426
    Elder Member Froggy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    Pretty much... many fans won't support a new gay black male; not with the same passion they would support a straight black hero.


    Plus Daken. Also, was Maggott bi?
    maggott didn't have enough time to be bi

    and dude was a stormsexual IIRC

    every time he saw her he hollered
    they label me a villain cause of how I express my feelings

  7. #427
    Veteran Member Flâneur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aja_christopher View Post
    We really don't know what this guy is which is why a lot of this talk is just speculation.

    My whole point is that if there were more (male) characters of color in the first place, there wouldn't be such a need to fight over his sexuality, his level of power, his level of "dominance", etc.

    The problem with having only one such representation of a "minority" (i.e. a "token" IMO) is that he often carries the burden of having to represent an entire culture to the readership. Like someone pointed out earlier, rare is the time when you will see more than one such representation on any team of ANY minority group, which is exactly what leads to the problems stated above.

    "White" characters don't have to bear this burden because there is plenty of representation there. You can have the "alpha male" (Wolverine), the "homosexual" (Northstar), the "beta male" (Iceman), the "rogue criminal" (Gambit), etc, all on one team and get a good mix of "white" cultural representation all in one book.

    The only way to address this issue for minority males is to increase their representation in said books but that isn't very likely to happen given the fact that Marvel seems to kill off, render irrelevant, or villainize every single male of color in the X-Books.

    For those who say this isn't an issue, I'm sure that if the tables were turned (i.e. if the books were consisted entirely of people of color and there were only one or two white males on the teams) there would be a similar outcry from those who felt slighted by their lack of representation.

    Ultimate Spiderman's transition from a white kid to a black-latino kid ignited a firestorm of criticism upon his debut, despite it making complete sense given the demographics of New York's urban population.

    I'm not saying that ALL white people would feel as that way -- just that I'm sure if the tables were turned, many might have an entirely new perspective on the matter. Hell, you can already see the backlash under the Obama presidency -- how some are saying this isn't "traditional" America anymore just because there happens to be a "minority" in a position of power.

    Granted, Marvel has put plenty of people of color in power in their comics (Synch, Storm, Patriot, Alex Wilder, Niko, Bishop, Surge, etc) -- the problem is that, again, these characters inevitably get killed off, wallpapered, or villainized rather than being allowed to grow and evolve as leaders.
    I think it's interesting that you view male representation as so important when women are substantially marginalised within this medium, both in their number and their portrayal, and furthermore that you view the "homosexual" as just another character archetype like say, "rogue criminal".

    If we really do want to see better representation then we need to be intersectional and well, that's a good thing. I think that having characters like Storm and Karma running around is a good thing and we need more of it rather than a fixation on 'male' representation with a stock standard hetero-chauvinism.
    "All things are precipitated by the nature of existence. Nothing, therefore, is unnatural be it bee-hive or termite mound or all our shining, poisoned cities." - Promethea #31

  8. #428
    Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flâneur View Post
    I think it's interesting that you view male representation as so important when women are substantially marginalised within this medium, both in their number and their portrayal, and furthermore that you view the "homosexual" as just another character archetype like say, "rogue criminal".

    If we really do want to see better representation then we need to be intersectional and well, that's a good thing. I think that having characters like Storm and Karma running around is a good thing and we need more of it rather than a fixation on 'male' representation with a stock standard hetero-chauvinism.
    While this is in many ways true, I think what you are overlooking here is that comics is a medium in which the white heterosexual male dominates in terms of the writers, artists and editors creating the characters and the consumers who purchase the comics. From that perspective, various minorities evoke different perceptions when depicted including the heterosexual minority male. The reason being that is the group that historically the white heterosexual male perceived as a threat. Minority women are nothing more than sexual objects to be possessed which is evident in that many of the early comics depicted them pretty much running around with very little clothing on. Storm was a sexual object as much as she was a character. Of course, the writers gave her depth and personality but let's be honest, most women are depicted well proportioned and with impractical clothing because of their sexual objectification. By extension the homosexual minority male is not perceived as a threat because he is not in competition with the white heterosexual male for the affections of the female.

    This is not to say that it is not important for those minorities to be appropriately represented but simply to say their representation says something different than the representation of minority heterosexual male characters. Minorities are not a monolithic group and thus their appearence in comics evokes different thoughts and perceptions for that very reason. Even among perceived similar groups there is a difference. I feel Karma who to my knowledge has never been overly sexualised and who by her designation as a lesbian is thus not necessarily a sexual object to a heterosexual male to be a more impressive example of minorities getting fair representation than say psylocke or emma frost who despite their status as minorities are obviously designed to elicit and appeal to the sexual fantasies of their maile creaters and consumers.
    Last edited by remydat; 11-15-2012 at 05:23 AM.
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  9. #429
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flâneur View Post
    I think it's interesting that you view male representation as so important when women are substantially marginalised within this medium, both in their number and their portrayal, and furthermore that you view the "homosexual" as just another character archetype like say, "rogue criminal".

    If we really do want to see better representation then we need to be intersectional and well, that's a good thing. I think that having characters like Storm and Karma running around is a good thing and we need more of it rather than a fixation on 'male' representation with a stock standard hetero-chauvinism.
    I've discussed the issue of female representation in comics plenty of times in past posts -- almost ad nauseum. You can dig through my posting history if you feel so inclined or I might add a link later to show you just one such example out of many.

    The basic fact, however, is that no matter how bad female (minority) representation is in comics, at least it EXISTS (Storm, M, Karma, Dani, Cecilia, etc) and is relevant; so long as it at least exists and is relevant, it can be developed.

    The same can't be said for minority male representation, which is why I addressed that directly.

    Likewise, I don't see "homosexual" as an archetype so much as I see it as at least EXISTENT and relevant (Karma, Northstar, Rictor, Shatterstar). None of the aforementioned characters are archetypes of any sort and because they are diverse and somewhat numerous, none of them have to bear the sole burden of being the token "homosexual" that represents the entire culture in the comic medium.

    Regardless, like I said before, I don't see any point in arguing over "scraps" because we are all in the same boat with regards to representation, even if some have a bit more representation than others.
    Last edited by aja_christopher; 11-15-2012 at 05:51 AM.

  10. #430
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluedmighty View Post
    awesome, competent, and confident, alpha male
    That describes me. And I fuck guys

    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    Who speaks of Onyxx fondly?
    Me most frequently, but lots of folk. Eg

    Quote Originally Posted by Froggy View Post
    i like onyxx
    Quote Originally Posted by Seresecros View Post
    you back away from Onyxx, that's an American Hero you're talking about

  11. #431
    BUY LOKI: AGENT OF ASGARD Kieran_Frost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Froggy View Post
    maggott didn't have enough time to be bi
    Awwww... too soon...

    Quote Originally Posted by Home made ectoplasm View Post
    Me most frequently, but lots of folk. Eg
    I tease, I tease... was never an Onyxx fan, nor a detractor. But as X-kids go... his death never bothered me. Though for his fans, I am sorry for his loss; it always sucks to lose a character you adore.
    Last edited by Kieran_Frost; 11-15-2012 at 05:47 AM.
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  12. #432
    Veteran Member Flâneur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    While this is in many ways true, I think what you are overlooking here is that comics is a medium in which the white heterosexual male dominates in terms of the writers, artists and editors creating the characters and the consumers who purchase the comics. From that perspective, various minorities evoke different perceptions when depicted including the heterosexual minority male. The reason being that is the group that historically the white heterosexual male perceived as a threat. Minority women are nothing more than sexual objects to be possessed which is evident in that many of the early comics depicted them pretty much running around with very little clothing on. Storm was a sexual object as much as she was a character. Of course, the writers gave her depth and personality but let's be honest, most women are depicted well proportioned and with impractical clothing because of their sexual objectification. By extension the homosexual minority male is not perceived as a threat because he is not in competition with the white heterosexual male for the affections of the female.

    This is not to say that it is not important for those minorities to be appropriately represented but simply to say their representation says something different than the representation of minority heterosexual male characters. Minorities are not a monolithic group and thus their appearence in comics evokes different thoughts and perceptions for that very reason. Even among perceived similar groups there is a difference. I feel Karma who to my knowledge has never been overly sexualised and who by her designation as a lesbian is thus not necessarily a sexual object to a heterosexual male to be a more impressive example of minorities getting fair representation than say psylocke or emma frost who despite their status as minorities are obviously designed to elicit and appeal to the sexual fantasies of their maile creaters and consumers.
    I'm not overlooking that straight white cis-men dominate the content producers, it's quite patently obvious that they dominate production. I also think you're ridiculously oversimplifying so many different aspects of gender and sexuality; every group threatens the status quo in different ways and that's going to play out.

    The existence of male bodied people who don't conform with patriarchy's designation, be that through identifying as a woman, dating men or experimenting with gender queer expressions is something which undermines the power that we are socialised to think masculinity should have as does acceptance of the leadership and equality of women ... it challenges language, it challenges wealth distribution, it challenges preconceptions and it threatens power directly.

    A really simple example of this is how the words 'faggot' and 'slut' are used to police people, keep them in line and make them behave in ways that don't make those in power uncomfortable. There are other examples too - when women speak up or exert authority, people automatically play up how much they've done so even if it's less than the men ... Storm is often referred to as heaps authoritarian, for example, despite Cyclops being far more so but only seen as authoritarian within the last few years.

    As far as Karma's lack of objectification ... Fraction came under fire for turning her into a token lesbian in the very first panel he used her in and non-heterosexual women are historically hugely objectified so that's not the rationale for her comparative lack of T&A factor.

    Racism is used to police and control those who threaten but men of colour are not the only 'threat', especially given most content producers aren't producing in a state of political consciousness such that they're analysing these things all the time. The way these 'threats' come into it are from the deeper socialisation and that comes from all angles, not just d00ds and like, the discourse that you're tying into does exist but it's so not that simple when you look at it under the wider context of intersecting oppressions

    Quote Originally Posted by aja_christopher View Post
    I've discussed the issue of female representation in comics plenty of times in past posts -- almost ad nauseum. You can dig through my posting history if you feel so inclined or I might add a link later to show you just one such example out of many.

    The basic fact, however, is that no matter how bad female (minority) representation is in comics, at least it EXISTS (Storm, M, Karma, Dani, Cecilia, etc) and is relevant; so long as it at least exists and is relevant, it can be developed.

    The same can't be said for minority male representation, which is why I addressed that directly.

    Likewise, I don't see "homosexual" as an archetype so much as I see it as at least EXISTENT and relevant (Karma, Northstar, Rictor, Shatterstar). None of the aforementioned characters are archetypes of any sort and because they are diverse and somewhat numerous, none of them have to bear the sole burden of being the token "homosexual" that represents the entire culture in the comic medium.

    Regardless, I don't see any point in -- like I said before -- arguing over "scraps" because we are all in the same boat with regards to representation, even if some have a bit more representation than others.
    I don't think there is any circumstance in which we should be pushing for male representation - that women numerically have it better in one category does not change that given the deluge of privilege in both portrayal and numbers that we otherwise see for men. It's like arguing for more WASPs just because they happen to be less dominant in a comic book ... The women who are portrayed get hit with way more slams than men of colour who still become power fantasies for straight d00ds whereas the women have rotating spines to show you their tits before they fall over and need to be rescued by the straight white men.
    "All things are precipitated by the nature of existence. Nothing, therefore, is unnatural be it bee-hive or termite mound or all our shining, poisoned cities." - Promethea #31

  13. #433
    Pure Hellcatnip Lady_Alternate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aja_christopher View Post
    I've discussed the issue of female representation in comics plenty of times in past posts -- almost ad nauseum. You can dig through my posting history if you feel so inclined or I might add a link later to show you just one such example out of many.

    The basic fact, however, is that no matter how bad female (minority) representation is in comics, at least it EXISTS (Storm, M, Karma, Dani, Cecilia, etc) and is relevant; so long as it at least exists and is relevant, it can be developed.

    The same can't be said for minority male representation, which is why I addressed that directly.

    Likewise, I don't see "homosexual" as an archetype so much as I see it as at least EXISTENT and relevant (Karma, Northstar, Rictor, Shatterstar). None of the aforementioned characters are archetypes of any sort and because they are diverse and somewhat numerous, none of them have to bear the sole burden of being the token "homosexual" that represents the entire culture in the comic medium.

    Regardless, like I said before, I don't see any point in arguing over "scraps" because we are all in the same boat with regards to representation, even if some have a bit more representation than others.
    The whole argument falls down, because you claim male minority (strictly race) representation "doesn't exist" when it does - you just choose to ignore it.

    Reptil, Falcon, Sunspot, Mettle, Forge, Eden Fesi, Sunfire, Amadeus Cho, Rictor, Black Panther and "Christopher" off the top of my head will be featuring as cast members in post-NOW books.
    Last edited by Lady_Alternate; 11-15-2012 at 06:37 AM.
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  14. #434
    BANNED wader0069's Avatar
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    It's Idie, what's all the fuss about? The girl carries a bat around now........

  15. #435
    NoYouMayNotTouchMyFro bluedmighty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twisted Bliss View Post
    And a cup?
    LOL


    Quote Originally Posted by Flâneur View Post
    No, you really didn't. Totally separate.
    Is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Home made ectoplasm View Post
    That describes me. And I fuck guys
    I also noticed that you skipped right on over the "awesome, confident, and competent" part and homed right in on the Alpha male part. Good job.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flâneur View Post
    I think this craving for masculinity and leadership is stupid
    Your opinion. You're as welcome to it as I am mine.

    I'm a leader. I'm confident. I'm competent. I'm big and strong. I'm straight. What's wrong with me wanting to identify with A character i read?

    Quote Originally Posted by Flâneur View Post
    - I don't agree with 'alpha male' paradigms given the set ups facilitate sexist representations in comic book characters just to satisfy straight men's (often heterosexist) power fantasies.
    So.......Alpha males are inherently sexist, homophobic, and/or "heterosexist" (new one for me)

    Are you serious? SUPER HERO comics ARE about power fantasies (what planet is this) other wise we'd all be reading detective novels and the like.

    If you're indeed saying that you wouldn't like to see a Homosexual person be kick ass, with kick ass powers, you're "enjoying" the wrong medium.

    Why is it, EVERY time I post something about wanting a Black character that represents ME to be awesome and relevant OTHER "minorities" feel, somehow offended or slighted

    I have NEVER, in my 1,218 posts, said anything remotely resembling "They" SHOULDN'T be represented. My question is, and always has been,"Why am I not represented."

    Quote Originally Posted by Flâneur View Post
    It's ridic and people calling out for 'alpha male' characters should be embarrassed that, in a descent to identity politicking, THAT is the aspect they want to see represented.
    I am who I am (?)

    And you sir, should be embarrassed for calling for more LGBT proxy. If you want more gay representation, tell'em why you're mad son. Don't be a crab in my barrel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seresecros View Post
    This fear of queer in all the race threads on this forum is embarassing to read -- grow up.
    Oh yeah...........apparent/resident "homophobe" here (sarcastiball).

    I'm confused. Why are we even typing about "Queer" in a RACE forum? How does that even come up?
    Last edited by bluedmighty; 11-15-2012 at 07:59 AM.
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