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  1. #106
    Senior Member MDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEADER DESSLOK View Post
    To me, nowadays, too many artists are more interested in "showboating" and trying to dazzle the reader's eyes with acrobatic layouts--the downside of Neal Adams' influence, IMO-- but very few are engaged in the nuts and bolts of actual storytelling, where you can have a general sense of what's going on before reading a word.
    It's certainly ironic that by the late 80s-early 90s, the art of "alternative" cartoonists like the Hernandez bros, Clowes, Ware, Tomine (among others) was a lot more traditional and conservative than anything from the big 2 or "independent" publishers who specialized in superheroes. Of course, they are more interested in telling stories than just drawing the same tired superhero situations over and over...
    "It's just lines on paper, folks!"

  2. #107
    Hardcover addict dupont2005's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEADER DESSLOK View Post
    Huh? I never said he did. I listed him among great storytellers. I thought we were all agreed as to the nature or definition of storytelling--meaning being able to "tell" a story visually without the actual dialogue. In GEN13 he demonstrated great comedic "timing" and decent body language even with a style that appeared to be influenced by Jim Lee who I feel is a little weak in that area.



    I was commenting on the statement in question. As if the giants of the comic industry are all in the past and that Image never produced any, a notion I reject!
    A comic industry giant and a good storyteller are two different things. In my experience they are almost mutually exclusive. I've only read one issue of Gen 13, that was enough for me. I don't know if anyone would consider Campbell a "storytelling giant."
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  3. #108
    Senior Member Bad Wolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEADER DESSLOK View Post
    I believe Kieth himself acknowledged a debt to FRANK FRAZETTA and I can certainly see that in how he drew those "cute" and sultry, big hipped Maxx-women!
    Definitely.


  4. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Wolf View Post
    Sam Kieth draws the cutest women.
    That could lead to a topic thread on it's own........Tony Daniel does a pretty good job (at least he did in the Tenth)

  5. #110

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    lol i loved that era.

  6. #111
    Soul Gem Resident adam_warlock_2099's Avatar
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    The idea that a gal doesn't have to have a slim waist to sport other out of proportion measurements to be realistic I would attribute to a lot of the Hispanic/Latino(whichever is politically corrcect) artists that inspired natural curves in woman that come NATURAL with a well endowed woman. IT may be the cultural difference but it was a difference.
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  7. #112
    Senior Member LEADER DESSLOK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dupont2005 View Post
    A comic industry giant and a good storyteller are two different things. In my experience they are almost mutually exclusive. I've only read one issue of Gen 13, that was enough for me. I don't know if anyone would consider Campbell a "storytelling giant."
    If you didn't like Gen 13, I have no problem with that. But it was successful enough for Marvel to rip it off with their GENERATION X comic. I'll say it again, Campbell had great comedic timing and that's a mark of great storytelling. Sure, he was no Peter Bagge or Harvey Kurtzman, but he was better than a LOT of his peers--at DC, Marvel AND Image. Also, I disagree that "Superstars" and "Storytellers" are ALWAYS or "almost" mutually exclusive. Kirby and Steranko were "Superstars" in their time and either one could have written the book on storytelling. I just don't get why so many of us feel the need to make "blanket" statements on so many issues. Perhaps, that's why some non-comic book readers like to say we are incapable of grasping the concept of "subtlety". OOOPS, did I start another argument?
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  8. #113
    Cute.5 Aaron King's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEADER DESSLOK View Post
    If you didn't like Gen 13, I have no problem with that. But it was successful enough for Marvel to rip it off with their GENERATION X comic. I'll say it again, Campbell had great comedic timing and that's a mark of great storytelling. Sure, he was no Peter Bagge or Harvey Kurtzman, but he was better than a LOT of his peers--at DC, Marvel AND Image. Also, I disagree that "Superstars" and "Storytellers" are ALWAYS or "almost" mutually exclusive. Kirby and Steranko were "Superstars" in their time and either one could have written the book on storytelling. I just don't get why so many of us feel the need to make "blanket" statements on so many issues. Perhaps, that's why some non-comic book readers like to say we are incapable of grasping the concept of "subtlety". OOOPS, did I start another argument?
    My only argument is with your willy-nilly usage of quotation marks. Are you being sarcastic when you say "blanket"? Are you quoting someone else?

    As for the Gen 13/Generation X thing, Gen 13 was originally going to be called Gen X until someone found out that Marvel was developing Generation X at the same time. Like Swamp Thing/Man-Thing and X-Men/Doom Patrol, I think this was just a case of synchronicity.
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  9. #114
    More human than human. Johnny P. Sartre's Avatar
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    The MAXX is one of the greatest comic in the 90s (I'll say ever too!); Sam Keith and Messner-Loebs did a MARVELOUS job with that comic.

    One of the few comic that dared to look at the affects of misogyny, rape, sexism and dealt with the locker room atmosphere that 90s comics had.

    I simply adore that comic and Keith was not afraid of daring actual women. The women in his comic should have been drawn a bit more, "sexy", and he got a lot of that in his letters.

    EDIT: Not only did the characters get better with every issue but so did the art. While, I agree with Dan, it was a bit cluttered at the beginning, Keith moved away from that and it become every expansive, impressionistic and started to experiment more and more with panel layouts.
    Last edited by Johnny P. Sartre; 11-21-2012 at 10:08 PM.
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  10. #115
    Senior Member Dizzy D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron King View Post
    My only argument is with your willy-nilly usage of quotation marks. Are you being sarcastic when you say "blanket"? Are you quoting someone else?

    As for the Gen 13/Generation X thing, Gen 13 was originally going to be called Gen X until someone found out that Marvel was developing Generation X at the same time. Like Swamp Thing/Man-Thing and X-Men/Doom Patrol, I think this was just a case of synchronicity.
    I never bought that X-Men/Doom Patrol thing BTW. The only thing they had in common was that both had a guy in a wheel chair. (And a bit later both had a Brotherhood as opponents, but those two appeared in the exact same month).

  11. #116
    Senior Member LEADER DESSLOK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron King View Post
    My only argument is with your willy-nilly usage of quotation marks. Are you being sarcastic when you say "blanket"? Are you quoting someone else?

    As for the Gen 13/Generation X thing, Gen 13 was originally going to be called Gen X until someone found out that Marvel was developing Generation X at the same time. Like Swamp Thing/Man-Thing and X-Men/Doom Patrol, I think this was just a case of synchronicity.
    ITEM 1: In addition to original use of quoting actual statements I also use them as a connotative devices. Kirby used them a lot but I remember seeing other writers use them as well and of course, in actual human interaction, some are fond of using "air" quotation marks. Whether or not it is "proper" usage, I could care less as long as it's effective.

    ITEM 2: What is the source of your information? It seems that Marvel's book took its sweet time in developing. In this business I sometimes find "synchronicity" to be anything but. (That business behind Spider-Woman\Web-Woman is a prime example of what I'm talking about.) I think 'Beto Hernandez had his "Generation X" storyline in play within LOVE AND ROCKETS but I can't remember if the compilation came out before either Image or Marvel's books. However, the term "gen x", short for "generation X" was in the news a great deal at the time so I can't believe any member of the Image crowd, who were obsessed with trying to trademark concepts, would name one of their books "Gen X", which could be so easily challenged. Only the "House of (Bad) Ideas" would have THAT kind of gall!
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  12. #117
    Senior Member Dizzy D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEADER DESSLOK View Post
    ITEM 1: In addition to original use of quoting actual statements I also use them as a connotative devices. Kirby used them a lot but I remember seeing other writers use them as well and of course, in actual human interaction, some are fond of using "air" quotation marks. Whether or not it is "proper" usage, I could care less as long as it's effective.

    ITEM 2: What is the source of your information? It seems that Marvel's book took its sweet time in developing. In this business I sometimes find "synchronicity" to be anything but. (That business behind Spider-Woman\Web-Woman is a prime example of what I'm talking about.) I think 'Beto Hernandez had his "Generation X" storyline in play within LOVE AND ROCKETS but I can't remember if the compilation came out before either Image or Marvel's books. However, the term "gen x", short for "generation X" was in the news a great deal at the time so I can't believe any member of the Image crowd, who were obsessed with trying to trademark concepts, would name one of their books "Gen X", which could be so easily challenged. Only the "House of (Bad) Ideas" would have THAT kind of gall!
    Gen13 was originally called GenX, there were advertisements for Gen X in Stormwatch and other Wildstorm comics at the time and the dutch translation had original sketches by Lee and Campbell that were marked GenX.

  13. #118
    Senior Member LEADER DESSLOK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dizzy D View Post
    Gen13 was originally called GenX, there were advertisements for Gen X in Stormwatch and other Wildstorm comics at the time and the dutch translation had original sketches by Lee and Campbell that were marked GenX.
    Thank you, I stand corrected. I guess Marvel's not the only one after all but unlike Marvel, Wildstorm had the good sense to change it.

    Now that you mention it, did Liefeld run afoul of Hanna-Barbera with his "Bedrock" character, whose name was changed to "Badrock"?
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  14. #119
    Hardcover addict dupont2005's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEADER DESSLOK View Post
    If you didn't like Gen 13, I have no problem with that. But it was successful enough for Marvel to rip it off with their GENERATION X comic. I'll say it again, Campbell had great comedic timing and that's a mark of great storytelling. Sure, he was no Peter Bagge or Harvey Kurtzman, but he was better than a LOT of his peers--at DC, Marvel AND Image. Also, I disagree that "Superstars" and "Storytellers" are ALWAYS or "almost" mutually exclusive. Kirby and Steranko were "Superstars" in their time and either one could have written the book on storytelling. I just don't get why so many of us feel the need to make "blanket" statements on so many issues. Perhaps, that's why some non-comic book readers like to say we are incapable of grasping the concept of "subtlety". OOOPS, did I start another argument?
    Subtlety, yeah that's Campbell alright. So because he's successful that means he tells good stories. If the Backstreet Boys were successful it means they made good music. Often it doesn't.
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  15. #120
    Hardcover addict dupont2005's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny P. Sartre View Post
    The MAXX is one of the greatest comic in the 90s (I'll say ever too!); Sam Keith and Messner-Loebs did a MARVELOUS job with that comic.

    One of the few comic that dared to look at the affects of misogyny, rape, sexism and dealt with the locker room atmosphere that 90s comics had.

    I simply adore that comic and Keith was not afraid of daring actual women. The women in his comic should have been drawn a bit more, "sexy", and he got a lot of that in his letters.

    EDIT: Not only did the characters get better with every issue but so did the art. While, I agree with Dan, it was a bit cluttered at the beginning, Keith moved away from that and it become every expansive, impressionistic and started to experiment more and more with panel layouts.
    That one quickly evolved into an alternative comic. Within a dozen issues or so there were stories without even a single super hero, weren't there? And toward the end we all learn The Maxx isn't even a super hero. It was a good comic and a good way to introduce readers to something different once all the incoherent meaningless fighting of the first few issues was pushed aside.
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