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  1. #736
    Elder Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tylenoljones View Post
    I can't comment on the Dini story; I haven't read it. Here's another example though: the trap Bane set for Batman in the Dark Knight Rises. That was a completely beleivable trap, and one still gets the feeling that Batman could've escaped, except for his overconfidence in thinking he could defeat Bane. And he did not hesitate to act, as he does in this story.

    There was no attack here. He went to engage the dangerous maniac in conversation, and was surprised when he was lured into a trap for the second time. And sorry, but the "long story" excuse doesn't wash when the story has only been two parts. As far as comics go, I don't think anyone would consider two parts long.

    This was not a battle, an investigation, or a hostage situation. This was Bruce walking right up to his arch nemesis and giving Joker all the time in the world to do whatever bad things he pleased. That he was caught by ridiculous 'teeth grapples' just adds insult to injury.

    It's fine if all of that works for you, and you still enjoyed the story. But all these separate things add up, and it's really hard to buy the Joker as the most scary evar!! if he's just outsmarting idiots.

    I don't see a problem with hesitating to act, especially where the Joker is concerned as attacking may be exactly what he wants. It pays to let him talk a lot of times, historically that's been one of Batman's best tools when confronting the Joker.

    It's two issues with the same gimmicky villain though and in that situation you're bound to see similarities, more so when part of the thrust of the plot is everything old is new again. In the story the Joker is consciously repeating himself so wacky death traps multiple times is the order of the day. And I don't see how getting caught by a gag is an insult to injury situation, it's part of what happens to Batman on a regular basis, that's the very appeal of having colorful villains and not just a bunch of gangsters.

    I don't think it's hard to buy the Joker as being scary, no more so than it's hard to buy that Batman is a great detective atleast. The slasher elements are very tiring, and the monologue we had to sit through was terrible, so terrible that I wonder if Snyder has forgotten that a metaphor is supposed to be a piece of figurative language and not literal.

    But the gags? That's key to a Joker story. Chattering teeth, joy buzzers, giant hammers, laughing gas,and bad puns, I want them all.

  2. #737
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Holmes View Post
    I'm kind of interested in Riddler here, but I already know, Snyder is going to continue the "epic, definitive, ultimate" pretentions. Enigma hasn't been a formidable villain since Peter Milligan's Dark Knight, Dark City (and even there he was revealed as possessed). Moriarty from Sherlock is the perfect way to do this.
    Actually, I loved him in LotDK "Riddle Me This" arc that established him as a bona fide genius.

  3. #738
    Senior Member tylenoljones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    But the gags? That's key to a Joker story. Chattering teeth, joy buzzers, giant hammers, laughing gas,and bad puns, I want them all.
    I agree. It wasn't the nature of chattering teeth attacking Batman that bothered me beyond, as others have mentioned, the logistics have making them float beneath the surface of the water, turn and ensnare Batman in midair, etc. Most, including myself, seem to classify that as a nitpick though. The concept of some of those things you mentioned, like the laughing gas, i'm fine with. A laughing gas attack before the slaughter at the GCPD would've made that scene more effective, I think.

    And yes, sometimes it pays to listen to what the Joker has to say. Like I said, more than the trap it's falling for the trap twice in the same fashion, in consecutive issues. It's the way the cops acted in the last issue, the way Gordon's been acting. All these little nitpicks add up.

    Alfred's capture, at least, was well done. Snyder backed off the dialogue, let the art speak for itself. That was a scary image.

  4. #739
    Elder Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    It just seems like a nitpick too many for me, like I said it's no less realistic than half the stuff Batman does on a regular basis. I don't need to understand why or how Batman can kick down a tree or grapple swing across Gotham without tearing his arms out of their sockets; I just accept that such things look cool and fit within the rules of the genre.

  5. #740
    Senior Member tylenoljones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    It just seems like a nitpick too many for me, like I said it's no less realistic than half the stuff Batman does on a regular basis. I don't need to understand why or how Batman can kick down a tree or grapple swing across Gotham without tearing his arms out of their sockets; I just accept that such things look cool and fit within the rules of the genre.
    I'm sure most, including myself, would agree with you regarding realism in comics. I wouldn't suggest we need to know the physics behind how heroes do what they do, and I really didn't intend to get dragged into the teeth grapple debate.

    As I've said, my issue is with certain characters acting dumber than usual. I realize we have a difference of opinion there, but I think quite a few characters behavior here is not quite how they would usually react in these situations. I realize it's to move the plot forward, but there really isn't much a plot here anyway beyond Joker killing lots of people sans face. I'll concede that Batman does fall into traps from time to time, that's fine. I wouldn't claim to have read every Batman story, and my comic reading experience is probably vastly different from yours.

    But surely we can agree that Batman falling for essentially the exact same trap two consecutive issues in a row is either lazy storytelling or a deliberate (more likely unintentional) attempt to make one character stronger at the expense of another?
    Last edited by tylenoljones; 11-21-2012 at 01:06 AM.

  6. #741
    Elder Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    Gordon acting out of character is disheartening, and although I got what Synder was trying to do in the police station scene last issue( Make the joker seem like some supernatural slasher threat like Jason or Freddy) I didn't care for it.

    But as long as the traps continue to be fun I'm cool with them, they remind me of the black and white movie serials. I mean, in both cases the traps made me smile like a little kid because they were so goofy and that's an element of Batman that I feel should show up now and again.

  7. #742
    The Avatar of Vengeance melkorjunior's Avatar
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    My take on the story so far, and my probably completely wrong theory about Joker's face:

    Loved Harley, but I always love Harley. I thought Joker killing the cops with his bare hands was a bit much--no one fired their weapon? No one even put up a fight? These are cops. Instead of screaming, "please, no" maybe one of them could have at least thrown a punch?

    Enjoyed the Penguin backup; I always like it when Gotham's bad guys know each other. Not loving Batman's ultra high-tech stuff very much. His escape from the vat of chemicals while apparently talking to a computer in his suit was too Iron Man for my tastes. Gordon was not smart at all to go home when he knew the Joker had been there, and Gordon's sad speech about how the Joker is frightening because he can't be predicted, etc. made me think, just how many times has Gordon been in this situation? How tired is this dynamic? It never seems to change; Gordon is the writers' pinata. I love Babs but I wish Gordon would retire. In fact I'd like it if Batman went back to being a renegade vigilante that the cops don't trust, but I guess that ship sailed a long time ago.

    Why did Joker allow his face to be cut off? My probably wrong theory is that he intends to die by the end of this story (by Batman's hand? maybe) and had his face cut off so a succesor, someone Joker has probably already chosen by now, can wear it and take up his "mantle".

    The constant "Joker is the worst threat ever/look how worried we all are about him/oh God he's killed so many people this time" dynamic only works if Joker manages to achieve some sort of victory in the end. If Joker doesn't succeed in irreparably hurting or killing someone close to Bruce--and it's hard to see how he could, since the Bat-Family sidekicks he's targeted all have their own titles--then all of this comes off as a pointless exercise. (I don't think Joker killing Alfred is enough--he's stated that he's going after Dick, Barbara, Jason, Tim, and...shudder...Damien, so failing to get even one of them makes Joker come off like nothing more than an ineffectual windbag.) Also, the "Doctor Doomifying" of the Joker into the Greatest Threat Ever means that every new Joker appearance will have to top the one before it in terms of consequences for Batman and "the family", or else Joker loses his threat status. I'm worried that Snyder and DC have locked themselves into an escalating pattern of Joker Big Events from here on out, where the character gains perforce a kind of mythic status, but loses the ability to recur as a villain in more intimate stories.

    I'm hoping Batwoman doesn't have to be part of this. I prefer her separate from the Bat-Family.
    Last edited by melkorjunior; 11-21-2012 at 07:03 PM.

  8. #743
    Senior Member Whip Whirlwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by melkorjunior View Post
    Enjoyed the Penguin backup; I always like it when Gotham's bad guys know each other. Not loving Batman's ultra high-tech stuff very much. His escape from the vat of chemicals while apparently talking to a computer in his suit was too Iron Man for my tastes. Gordon was not smart at all to go home when he knew the Joker had been there, and Gordon's sad speech about how the Joker is frightening because he can't be predicted, etc. made me think, just how many times has Gordon been in this situation? How tired is this dynamic? It never seems to change; Gordon is the writers' pinata. I love Babs but I wish Gordon would retire. In fact I'd like it if Batman went back to being a renegade vigilante that the cops don't trust, but I guess that ship sailed a long time ago.
    This actually happened in the early 2000s. Gordon retired after no man's land and a new character Michael Akins took over as commisioner. He wasn't a bad guy, typical hardline good cop who's idealism has been strained over the years.

    He was very against Batman, partially for the logical reasons and partially because at his previous post (gateway city), he sanctioned a vigilante who ended up botching a rescue gig and got himself and a small girl killed, so Akins blames himself.

  9. #744
    Elder Member BrotherUnitNo_4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whip Whirlwind View Post
    This actually happened in the early 2000s. Gordon retired after no man's land and a new character Michael Akins took over as commisioner. He wasn't a bad guy, typical hardline good cop who's idealism has been strained over the years.

    He was very against Batman, partially for the logical reasons and partially because at his previous post (gateway city), he sanctioned a vigilante who ended up botching a rescue gig and got himself and a small girl killed, so Akins blames himself.
    It was a nice change of pace. Too bad things reverted.
    Currently reading She-Hulk, Deadpool, Swamp Thing, Ms. Marvel

    Probation: Ghost Rider, Loki: LoA, Secret Avengers

    Looking forward to All-New Ultimates, Flash Gordon and Doctor Mirage.

  10. #745
    Senior Member Whip Whirlwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrotherUnitNo_4 View Post
    It was a nice change of pace. Too bad things reverted.
    What pissed me off was that when they did the change they alluded to Akin being corrupt. Like of course the guy who's anti batman is corrupt.

  11. #746
    Senior Member tylenoljones's Avatar
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    Ain't it Cool just posted their review. According to them, Death of the Family is "destined to be a classic that future storylines will never be able to compare to".

    http://www.aintitcool.com/node/59717#14

    Lol.

  12. #747
    My Opinion > Your Opinion maxpower00044's Avatar
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    Up until the last line you quoted, that review was fine. I guess anyone (the majority of people) who find this story enjoyable, are just plain wrong. Yes folks, only the CBR forum has the true comic book fans. Only CBR has members whose opinions' should be taken seriously. It's obvious any positive reviewers are being paid by DC, or something. So that's why they give it favorable reviews; month in, and month out.
    Last edited by maxpower00044; 11-21-2012 at 12:25 PM.

  13. #748
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    Quote Originally Posted by tylenoljones View Post
    Ain't it Cool just posted their review. According to them, Death of the Family is "destined to be a classic that future storylines will never be able to compare to".

    http://www.aintitcool.com/node/59717#14

    Lol.
    This is the definitive Batman guise.

  14. #749
    Gigantic Member ispacehead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tylenoljones View Post
    Ain't it Cool just posted their review. According to them, Death of the Family is "destined to be a classic that future storylines will never be able to compare to".

    http://www.aintitcool.com/node/59717#14

    Lol.
    "almost poetic." [rollseyes]

  15. #750
    Gigantic Member ispacehead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whip Whirlwind View Post
    What pissed me off was that when they did the change they alluded to Akin being corrupt. Like of course the guy who's anti batman is corrupt.
    I don't recall that. Could you refresh my memory?

    I loved that period after NML Akin stepped in. It definitely freshened up the mix without sacrificing anything crucial. I loved that Batman would visit Gordon and talk shop, even though Jim was retired.

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