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  1. #556
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conway View Post
    See the reviews that say "I liked it but it wasn't groundbreaking" I can understand and agree with. The ones that throw me are the 5/5, or 4 stars, or 10/10, or whatever on every sites' reviews, or the "This is the greatest Batman story ever". Seriously these two are putting out Swamp Thing and every month it's better than this. This arc is reminding me of The Culling. The hero talks to himself for pages, then the villain talks to the hero for pages put an action scene or two in between and hope that nobody notices that at the end of the issue we're in the exact same place, plot wise, that we were before it came out.
    If 5 Star = classic, than I agree. If 5 star = best of the week, I am fine with it.

  2. #557
    Unreasonably Opinionated Conway's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Concept Coop View Post
    If 5 Star = classic, than I agree. If 5 star = best of the week, I am fine with it.
    Did you read Batgirl? Because stuff actually happened in that one. Every scene did something to move the plot forward, there wasn't any unnecessary monologues, and when the Joker cut of her mother's ring finger he didn't tell us how or why he did it. Way better book this week, in fact everything I bought was better this week.

  3. #558
    My Opinion > Your Opinion maxpower00044's Avatar
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    Hahahaha I read Batgirl, too. Decent, but it paled in comparison to his book. More lame dialogue and you could tell it was James Jr. From the moment he called. Not to mention that every time you're in Babs's head it's "oh I can do this, I might have been crippled, but I can do th.... Blah blah blah". This is your "higher standard"? Books had like 4 decent issues since relaunch. OMG BABS MADE A SANDWICH!!!! I wonder if she did it for the "lulz". Holy Cats!!!!
    Last edited by maxpower00044; 11-16-2012 at 08:25 AM.

  4. #559
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conway View Post
    Did you read Batgirl? Because stuff actually happened in that one. Every scene did something to move the plot forward, there wasn't any unnecessary monologues, and when the Joker cut of her mother's ring finger he didn't tell us how or why he did it. Way better book this week, in fact everything I bought was better this week.
    Unnecessary is subjective. I truly enjoyed a lot of the monolog. I didn't like the bike bit - not because I minded the talk itself, it was just clumsy and too long. But the Joker part was awesome.

    I am not worried about the plot being X farther along in each page or even issue. Dialog can be rewarding in comics too. This was to me.

  5. #560
    Unreasonably Opinionated Conway's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maxpower00044 View Post
    Hahahaha I read Batgirl, too. It paled in comparison to his book. More lame dialogue and you could tell it was James Jr. From the moment he called. This is your "higher standard"? Books had like 4 decent issues since relaunch. OMG BABS MADE A SANDWICH!!!! I wonder if she did it for the "lulz".
    Seriously how can anyone compare any dialogue favorable to this issue. The scene with Nightwing was painful to read, Caps art made all the points without the words even needed, but still it went on for pages. The only other "dialogue" was Joker's horrible rant about being a jester and doing the crime backwards (after already explaining twice that that is what he was doing). Then at the end of the book we're right back where we started at the beginning. Nothing has changed. Bats it trapped Joker knows who they all are and Gordon can't help. Might as well have sold me #13 twice.

  6. #561
    My Opinion > Your Opinion maxpower00044's Avatar
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    Well, it's easy, Batman's not saying "Holy Cats!", or "did it for the lulz!". Obviously some of us don't mind dialogue in our comics. I have no problems, at all with Snyders dialogue and monologues. That's about as simple as I can put it. But, the way you rant its like the comics you read are Shakespear. Then I see what you consider good, and it makes taking your rants with a grain of salt much easier.

    Nothing's changed?!?! Do you ever read these issues? Gordon's in the hospital, Alfred may/or may not be blind, and Joker claims to know every Bats identity. Yeah....nothing happened.
    Last edited by maxpower00044; 11-16-2012 at 08:38 AM.

  7. #562
    Senior Member adkal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maxpower00044 View Post
    Nothing's changed?!?! Do you ever read these issues? Gordon's in the hospital, Alfred may/or may not be blind, and Joker claims to know every Bats identity. Yeah....nothing happened.
    And has a book made from the skin of one of the Cave's bats...



  8. #563
    My Opinion > Your Opinion maxpower00044's Avatar
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    Haha I always wonder if you actually make the faces of the smileys you make at you computer screen. Hahaha


    Yes, batskin book.

  9. #564
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    Quote Originally Posted by adkal View Post
    And has a book made from the skin of one of the Cave's bats...


    And is not likely to own an iPod!

  10. #565
    Senior Member adkal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conway View Post
    The only other "dialogue" was Joker's horrible rant about being a jester and doing the crime backwards (after already explaining twice that that is what he was doing).
    It wasn't just 'inversion' but also 'completion'.

    He incorporated whatever happened 'last time' and actually finished things before Batman (or anyone else) knew what was happening - Gordon mentions the death of 19 officers, but no one is aware of there being 30 or so civilians being dead (we'll put the deaths at the skate rink to one side for now).

  11. #566
    Unreasonably Opinionated Conway's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maxpower00044 View Post
    Well, it's obviously that some of us don't mind dialogue in our comics. I have no problems, at all with Snyders dialogue and monologues. That's about as simple as I can put it. But, the way you rant its like the comics you read are Shakespear. Then I see what you consider good, and it makes taking your rants with a grain of salt much easier.
    In fact I believe my biggest complaint about this arc is the number of people comparing it to Shakespeare. A friend asked me why I still read these, my comment was "It cost me less than your cigarettes and sometimes I get a good story... usually I get a bad one... but sometimes."

    This story is as subtle as a frying pan to the face. I don't watch horror movies because for the most part it's a formulaic brainless medium. This is a horror movie. Big bad killer is slowly marching around killing everyone and the main characters are running around scared looking behind doors when he's standing behind them. The action, the dialogue, and the monologues, do nothing to provide a story to the reader. The closest it ever gets to telling a story is those awful omens, and the Alfred "torture tape".

    On the other had you attack my reading list as crap, even though it has Snyder on it. Yes I think Action #13 is an instant classic that shows real writing ability. Its most powerful ideas don't come from something printed on the page but from the things the reader must try to interpret on their own. Yes there are some top sellers on my lists, I have titles from Morrison. Johns, and Snyder that I am enjoying very much, but I also have titles from all of them that I'm about to drop (I already dropped JL once).

    In the end it's all opinion, I just can't wrap my head around the opinions that are claiming this is perfect.
    Last edited by Conway; 11-16-2012 at 08:55 AM.

  12. #567
    Senior Member adkal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maxpower00044 View Post
    Haha I always wonder if you actually make the faces of the smileys you make at you computer screen. Hahaha
    Internally (usually) (especially when I'm at the office...although there may be occasional 'knowing smile'...)


    Did anyone else get the feeling that Bats is feeling violated, especially when he tries to dismiss Joker as a liar?

  13. #568
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conway View Post
    In the end it's all opinion, I just can't wrap my head around the opinions that are claiming this is perfect.
    I don't think anyone has. Again, I don't think 5/5 means classic. I think it means best of the week. I could be wrong, and would agree with you, if I read anyone claiming it was perfect.

  14. #569
    Unreasonably Opinionated Conway's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Concept Coop View Post
    I don't think anyone has. Again, I don't think 5/5 means classic. I think it means best of the week. I could be wrong, and would agree with you, if I read anyone claiming it was perfect.
    I've read at least three reviews that were comparing the arc to Shakespeare. I only have to go back a couple pages to find things like "This is everything a Batman book should be", "Amazing", "Best issue of Batman since the reboot". Even if I didn't, I still can't see how anyone would compare the main title in this story favorably to Batgirl. A book where every word and action had meaning behind it. Even the stupid sandwich was there for a reason (and that reason was left to the reader to decide).

    I will say Joker's big diatribe about the King, his Court, and his Jester might have had more impact if I hadn't heard Snyder quote it, verbatim, for months before the big reveal.

  15. #570
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    Tylenol & I had a nice back-and-forth last month about the GCPD scene, and Maxpower & I have jabbed a bit in regards to Snyder in the past. I have to say that I agree with both of them, in several ways. This wasn't a classic issue, but I thought it was very good. I've only read his 'Tec & Batman work, but I 've found that I immensely enjoy Snyder for the first 5 or 6 issues while he's building tension. I think he's as good at building tension as Morrison is at wrapping things up (and Morrison's my favorite Bat writer). With this being a shorter arc, I'm excited to see what happens with it.

    A few things about the book, and this thread in general:

    • I'm surprised about the flack given to the cassette tape. A big part of comics is your imagination...mine tells me Joker probably laughed himself silly at the thought of leaving a tape behind. "It'll take Batsy a WEEK to get a player off of ebay! Hahaha!" Course, Batman is always prepared, 6-years be damned.

    • I hated the chattering teeth. Not so much the idea of them, but just how a button press launches them from the water & magically ensnare Batman. Seemed like a Geoff Johns idea or something.

    • I think Joker probably laced the news clipping in Gordon's drawer. Gordon was fine until he touched it.

    • I'm enjoying this more serious, "only funny to him" version of Joker, although this thread is kind of divided. For those that don't like it though, slapstick Joker will be back. Remember the whole "reinventing himself" idea? Having his face removed was a good opportunity to change him up.

    • The face removal, and then strapping it on, is an idea I really like. Thus far, only 2 issues in, I see it as this: Joker is playing with torturing the Bat-clan through the knowledge of their secret identities (more on this below). He's going beneath the mask. So, it only makes sense that if he's going to "remove the masks", so to speak, that he would remove his own as well--that of the funny looking clown. Show them that the real Joker isn't his appearance, but the meatbag underneath.

    • Didn't care for the motorcycle scene. Made Batman out to look like a guy who needs reassurance or a pep talk before battle. A far cry from "I'm the Goddamn Batman!"

    • Dick was created to bring Batman down to Earth a bit; I enjoyed their talk here, as Dick tries to humanize Bruce a bit because of his "detachment".

    • And finally, I enjoyed the Jester / King speech. However, I also do not read interviews of books I'm already following. I had no idea Snyder already spoke about it. For those that didn't like Snyder's interview-to-page usage here, just remember that not everybody reads interviews, & Snyder knows this. Sure, he could be more coy for those that do read them, but I really don't think this is a nitpick.

    Now, about their identities. Snyder is being very careful so far, providing alternative explanations for each thing. He takes Alfred: is it to get at Batman specifically, or at Bruce because of the connection to Inc? On the tape, he specifically says "Bruce", not "Batman", and if he really knows then would he say a name at all? He tells the batfam he knows who they are, but continues to use Dick's codename. And over in Batgirl, Gail has Babs' mom kidnapped; because Batgirl is Barbara, or because her mom is a Gordon? It all could go either way. I see this all going 1 of 2 ways:

    1. In the end, Batman and Bruce Wayne appear together in Arkham in front of Joker. "Bruce" is really Dick, using the holographic mask. Joker says "oh well, it was a nice idea anyway."

    Or

    2. Batman appears in front of Joker at Arkham where Joker "admits" that he never knew anything, but was just trying to create a little chaos. As Batman leaves, we see that Joker has his fingers crossed behind his back.

    Those are my guesses.
    Last edited by ForeverYoung8; 11-16-2012 at 09:19 AM.

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