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  1. #376
    Critical Critic nosocialize100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nite-Wing View Post
    So basically its just you trying your hardest to not like this arc. What a big encompassing problem where Batman gets tricked by his most unpredictable enemy and walks around the batcave without his cowl. These problems are so gamebreaking -_-

    I mean even I have a problem with Batman getting duped by the Joker this much but I'm not going to bemoan two issues entirely because this happened. Oh and Joker monologuing is great best part of this arc because more often then not whenever he talks its nonsensical dribble to get batman to crack but now he's actually saying something that matters I wouldn't change a thing about that aspect.

    I guess its just different strokes for different folks
    I would say he doesn't show enough but instead tells with too much dialogue. I explain my problem with the issue here. It's good, but not great.
    I write comic book reviews every Wednesday using pages from each book. Check it: Is It Good?: All the Best Books of the Day Reviewed!

  2. #377
    Critical Critic nosocialize100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InformationGeek View Post
    That's basically it for people here. We all have different things we want from this Batman comic and to some of us, it's delivering quite well. For the rest... not so much. Me? I'm more judging this book on what it is giving me rather than what I would want and what the comic is giving me is good.
    I would agree with that way of assessing a comic or anything for that matter. That's one reason Roger Ebert gets yelled at. He might give Tomb Raider a good review simply because it did what it set out to do well.
    I write comic book reviews every Wednesday using pages from each book. Check it: Is It Good?: All the Best Books of the Day Reviewed!

  3. #378
    Senior Member adkal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conway View Post
    The guy literally talks for a page about how he still doesn't understand Joker Toxin.
    That wasn't about the toxin (the Joker has dozens of variants of the toxin/venom (as seen last issue)) but about the mixture the man-who-became-the-Joker fell in to and how, instead of killing him as it should have done (he should have come out looking like the acid-soaked guy in Robocop) it made him something else. The creation of the Joker broke the rules; something happened which shouldn't have happened, and that's the aspect that Batman 'still doesn't understand'.

  4. #379
    Elder Member Karl O'Neill's Avatar
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    Dying to read this story. Snyder is on fire these days.
    "You can't trust them as poets either. The true poet is anonymous, as to his habits, but these boys have to look, act, and apparently smell like poets"
    Flannery O'Connor on the beats.

  5. #380
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conway View Post
    His writing lacks subtlety. Let's just focus on this arc.

    The opening with "omens" was clunky awkward and unnecessary.
    I personally think you're reaching here. I liked it and thought it did a good job of setting the mood. The metaphors weren't subtle, but they weren't meant to be - they don't have to be to work. It adds to the supernatural aspect of the Joker.

    Quote Originally Posted by Conway View Post
    The attempt to humanize Gordon (the most human character in the book) by having him struggle with smoking was contrived.
    Again. Reaching. It's the very first issue in the arc, and Gordon wasn't a major player in the first one. Snyder's not allowed to paint a picture of the man for people who aren't as familiar with the character as you and I?

    Quote Originally Posted by Conway View Post
    Then Gordon and the entire GCPD acted like teenagers in a slasher film, which only made sense because Joker was acting like Jason Voorhees or Freddy Kreuger. Then the hamfisted foreshadowing of the floor wax killing whatever cops didn't die in the precinct.
    The random cops at the precinct didn't act they way you think they would have? And that's poor writing?

    Snyder is introducing us to a new Joker; he very clearly says such. And I haven't watched Freddy Kreuger for a while, so I'll take your word on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Conway View Post
    Batman in an elevator talking with Gordon, literally saying "[Joker] is meaner and angrier this time".
    Okay?

    Quote Originally Posted by Conway View Post
    Then for the 30th time since the reboot he charges blindly into a trap, but not just any trap. He charges down an elevated walkway over vats of chemicals that he's seen people fall into before and gets hit by a giant cartoon mallet that swings down from the ceiling. But Batman never saw any of that coming.
    I think you make a good point here. But, again, using the Grant Morrison quote above: "It's not real." If this type of thing bothers you, I think your argument is at least valid. But, in comics, it doesn't bother me. I certainly doesn't make someone a poor writer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Conway View Post
    This month we open with Batman trapped (uhg), and pounding on the steel vat whining like a kid in a locker, "Let me out! C'mon Harley, pleeeese". Snyder then takes another opportunity to have Harley remind us that Joker has "changed", before starting the ridiculous amount of monologue that defines this issue.
    The Harley part didn't come off as begging to me at all. Add "pleeese" to anything and it sounds like whining.

    The Harley comment about the Joker was great. It especially speaks to her mental state and relationship with the Joker, that she would even hint at investing hope in a replacement, and Batman being the replacement at that. Later countered by Batman's statement that there was nothing in the compound but death: it didn't make the Joker.

    The monologue here was awesome. It provided insight into the Batman, acting as the other side of the insanity, in his relationship with the Joker. He goes on to claim the Joker's nothing to him; but here, we see that's not the case.

    Great writing here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Conway View Post
    Then the big reveal... Joker left a cassette tape? He didn't leave a flash drive with a video, or even an e-mail, he left a cassette tape. .
    This is too obvious to miss, yet you did. The Joker is wanting things to be like "old" times. Surprised so many people miss this. In making fun of Snyder, you're actually looking pretty silly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Conway View Post
    Then Gordon, the one guy in Gotham that doesn't cave to the intimidation, breaks down sobs like a mess and cries "Why mee?" Again Batman and GCPD fail. Gordon's place is filled with poisons and Batman watches while he exposes himself to more of that.
    Except that didn't happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Conway View Post
    Then we talk and talk and talk and talk with Nightwing and don't say anything except that neither of them are going to contact Babs and tell her that her dad almost died because that would mess with her arc.
    It provided a lot of insight into Bruce's thinking. The "code words" especially. It wasn't about the others, including Babs; it was about Bruce. I think you missed that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Conway View Post
    Then we get Joker's monologue, it goes on for pages without saying anything interesting. He goes on and on about how important he is to Batman, and then even longer about the "King's Court" and "jester" crap that makes Snyder sound pretentious, then at the end the big reveal... Joker knows that the Bat-Fam is Bruce and his boys! Oh my god... because even though 50,000 people in Gotham know already, Gordon and Joker didn't. Boring, predictable, and uninspired.
    I thought this was the highlight of the issue. I don't know what to say to those who didn't find it interesting. Different strokes, I guess. Still doesn't make it poor writing.

  6. #381
    All Caste Warrior JasonTodd428's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InformationGeek View Post
    That's basically it for people here. We all have different things we want from this Batman comic and to some of us, it's delivering quite well. For the rest... not so much. Me? I'm more judging this book on what it is giving me rather than what I would want and what the comic is giving me is good.
    That's a good way to go about this. At the end of the day all any writer is trying to do is make the best comic that they can but it's up to each individual reader whether they hit the mark or not. For some people Snyder's Batman is hitting the mark in spades despite the problems there have been with it while for others those problems are so glaring to them that they are unable to enjoy it. Neither opinion is wrong it's simply just how it is. You can't please all of the people all of the time. Your doing good if you can merely please some of the people some of the time.
    Characters come and go, revamped and revisited. But as long as you enjoyed them, remember them and continue to appreciate them, then that character, your hero or heroine, will always exist.

  7. #382
    Elder Member Karl O'Neill's Avatar
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    All the complaints about Batman not "Seeing stuff coming" ....you remember the Black Glove and Leviathan running rings around him the last 5 years? The real story is how Batman overcomes these obstacles.
    "You can't trust them as poets either. The true poet is anonymous, as to his habits, but these boys have to look, act, and apparently smell like poets"
    Flannery O'Connor on the beats.

  8. #383
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonTodd428 View Post
    That's a good way to go about this. At the end of the day all any writer is trying to do is make the best comic that they can but it's up to each individual reader whether they hit the mark or not. For some people Snyder's Batman is hitting the mark in spades despite the problems there have been with it while for others those problems are so glaring to them that they are unable to enjoy it. Neither opinion is wrong it's simply just how it is. You can't please all of the people all of the time. Your doing good if you can merely please some of the people some of the time.
    So are you saying that the comic has problems regardless, and that the people who like it simply ignore the problems?

  9. #384
    All Caste Warrior JasonTodd428's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Nuke View Post
    So are you saying that the comic has problems regardless, and that the people who like it simply ignore the problems?
    I'm saying that it is possible to still enjoy what is being done here even with those problems not that all of the people who like it are ignoring them. Snyder does tend toward the verboise and he does make the mistake of telling rather than showing at times but he still tells a decent story to me in spite of that. I'm fairly certain that he will also learn what works and what doesn't over time and will correct the things people have been complaining about. People can't expect that to happen overnight though.
    Characters come and go, revamped and revisited. But as long as you enjoyed them, remember them and continue to appreciate them, then that character, your hero or heroine, will always exist.

  10. #385
    Senior Member NinjaMic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nite-Wing View Post
    I like how no one can ever really definitively put down what they don't like about Snyder's writing its all very muted whenever the discussion comes up. They tend to focus on these really irrelevant details of the story or preferences that only the most anal fan should care about and then blow it up until your no longer talking about the issue and instead arguing about the current state of Batman line.
    I knew it was coming months ago. Snyder is being tarred and feathered online for no other reason than being popular.

  11. #386
    Senior Member Coal Tiger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonTodd428 View Post
    I'm saying that it is possible to still enjoy what is being done here even with those problems not that all of the people who like it are ignoring them. Snyder does tend toward the verboise and he does make the mistake of telling rather than showing at times but he still tells a decent story to me in spite of that. I'm fairly certain that he will also learn what works and what doesn't over time and will correct the things people have been complaining about. People can't expect that to happen overnight though.
    That would be an awesome quote for the back of the trade.

    "Snyder does tend toward the verboise and he does make the mistake of telling rather than showing at times but he still tells a decent story to me in spite of that."

    That's the kind of high praise that sells comics.


    Seriously though, he's had 14 issues and more than 2 years total writing Batman books. At what point will people stop excusing rookie mistakes?

  12. #387
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coal Tiger View Post
    That would be an awesome quote for the back of the trade.

    "Snyder does tend toward the verboise and he does make the mistake of telling rather than showing at times but he still tells a decent story to me in spite of that."

    That's the kind of high praise that sells comics.


    Seriously though, he's had 14 issues and more than 2 years total writing Batman books. At what point will people stop excusing rookie mistakes?
    Eveyone outside of this forum seems to love Snyders work.

  13. #388

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    Quote Originally Posted by Concept Coop View Post
    Eveyone outside of this forum seems to love Snyders work.
    So we are all in some sort of Bizaro dimension on the Internet?

  14. #389
    Senior Member NinjaMic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InformationGeek View Post
    So we are all in some sort of Bizaro dimension on the Internet?
    No, just CBR.

  15. #390
    Unreasonably Opinionated Conway's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Concept Coop View Post
    I think you make a good point here. But, again, using the Grant Morrison quote above: "It's not real." If this type of thing bothers you, I think your argument is at least valid. But, in comics, it doesn't bother me. I certainly doesn't make someone a poor writer.
    No it's lazy. Hide a giant boxing glove in a vat, at least then I don't have to think Batman is blind. I liked the mallet, it was very "Joker", it was just done poorly. And I didn't say Snyder was bad I've said this arc is bad.


    Quote Originally Posted by Concept Coop View Post
    The Harley part didn't come off as begging to me at all. Add "pleeese" to anything and it sounds like whining.
    Okay, then he comes off as trying to be all "dad"; "Young lady, You let me out of this vat this instance."

    Quote Originally Posted by Concept Coop View Post
    The Harley comment about the Joker was great. It especially speaks to her mental state and relationship with the Joker, that she would even hint at investing hope in a replacement, and Batman being the replacement at that. Later countered by Batman's statement that there was nothing in the compound but death: it didn't make the Joker.
    Except if you read Batgirl and know that she told him exactly what Mr. J told her to, then it's another contrived opportunity to tell us he's changed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Concept Coop View Post
    The monologue here was awesome. It provided insight into the Batman, acting as the other side of the insanity, in his relationship with the Joker. He goes on to claim the Joker's nothing to him; but here, we see that's not the case.
    I guess your a big fan of Mythology too. This is all stuff that can be said in much less space without actually writing it down for people, that is what makes this ham-fisted. The most basic concepts need to be put on the page over and over.


    Quote Originally Posted by Concept Coop View Post
    This is too obvious to miss, yet you did. The Joker is wanting things to be like "old" times. Surprised so many people miss this. In making fun of Snyder, you're actually looking pretty silly.
    Again, 6 year timeline. I was using iPods 6 years ago, but a lot of people were still using CD's, every computer had a burner. No one, and I mean NO ONE was making mix tapes for their arch enemy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Concept Coop View Post
    Except that didn't happen.
    "Can't sleep, won't run away, but he hurt me so bad, all these things, oh no I'm being poisoned help me Batman." Again not subtle, and dumb Batman.

    Quote Originally Posted by Concept Coop View Post
    It provided a lot of insight into Bruce's thinking. The "code words" especially. It wasn't about the others, including Babs; it was about Bruce. I think you missed that.
    And then it did nothing to move the plot forward. There is no Bruce, Snyder can't separate the two, Bruce has no problem acting like Batman in public. This just proves that Snyder can't wrap his brain around the concept of dual identities. And having Bruce walk around the Manor, not the cave the mansion in his suit without his cowl is just his way of showing that. Almost subtle, but still pretty aggressive union of the two characters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Concept Coop View Post
    I thought this was the highlight of the issue. I don't know what to say to those who didn't find it interesting. Different strokes, I guess. Still doesn't make it poor writing.
    Because the first several pages of it were about how he turned the history backwards (again Batman literally says this is what is going to happen). Then he ramble on about the pretentious King's Court and how important he is to Batman, again concepts that shouldn't ever be written out literally. Now we're going to have 4 more issues before Batman can prove the Joker isn't important to who he is.

    In the end it is all opinion. I think Snyder has written some good stuff but so far I think this is crap.

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