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  1. #361
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    Quote Originally Posted by slowens View Post
    Five Stars? Out if five? So it's perfect then? Absolutely perfect? Why does this site worship Snyder so much? Everything he does gets five stars. Does he show up at the CBR offices and hand out candy and handjobs?

    If you give this issue a 5/5. What would you give an issue of Year One or TDKR? Two books which are clearly better than this boring, set up for a disappointing ending, rag of a book. In CBR's opinion, nothing could be better than this book!

    Either Joker knows the truths bout the Bat Family or he doesn't.

    If he does know for real, that effectively ruins the dynamic of the Batman/Joker relationship. You may say, but Joker probably know all along anyway. Well, that's fine, but that's the point because even if he did know, he didn't care! It was more fun to have to wonder, does he know or doesn't he?

    If he doesn't know, then you're all just being set up for a twist ending "deus ex machina", convenient evil twin brother ending. GABBAGE!

    Or he does know their identities, but Bats will hit him with a batarang in the brain and he'll forget everything. Or something stupid like that. Maybe Batman will kiss him and make him forget a la "Superman II".

    That being said, Capullo is the man and deserves a better writer.
    Classics aside - what are some of your favorite Bat-books?

    I would just be interested to see what you don't consider garbage, if this is. Also, have you read Big 2 comics over the last decade+? Compared to classic books, maybe this falls short. But compared to the books being pushed out by DC and Marvel right now, this is very cleary a top 5 title, in my opinion.

  2. #362
    Harley Licks Nite-Wing's Avatar
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    I like how no one can ever really definitively put down what they don't like about Snyder's writing its all very muted whenever the discussion comes up. They tend to focus on these really irrelevant details of the story or preferences that only the most anal fan should care about and then blow it up until your no longer talking about the issue and instead arguing about the current state of Batman line.

    Now I'll ignore this and talk about what really bothered me about this issue. Nightwing really served no purpose this issue. I don't like the way Snyder writes him and when you have readers almost agreeing with the Joker than you need to get rid of his annoying supporting cast you are definitely telling the story wrong.

    I don't like the fact that Batman seems to be in a reoccurring congo line of failure when it comes to being tricked by the Joker. Unless Batman is being effected by Alfred's kidnapping there should be no reason his usual antics should be this effective at throwing him off his game.

    Finally the things that I love. I love what Snyder is doing with Joker. I love every word and I love how much he talks. I like the whole religion of crime aspect that he's drawing from those Batwoman stories in 52. It really makes you feel like Gotham is a kingdom. I think the only thing that could mess this arc up is if no one dies(I know snyder said this wouldn't happen but so far everything he's said has been a fakeout imo)
    Currrently Reading- Suicide Squad,Justice League,Batwoman,Batman,Batman and Robin,Detective Comics, Wonder Woman,Batman Eternal,Mighty Avengers,All new X-factor,Justice League 3000 and Harley Quinn

  3. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nite-Wing View Post
    Finally the things that I love. I love what Snyder is doing with Joker. I love every word and I love how much he talks. I like the whole religion of crime aspect that he's drawing from those Batwoman stories in 52. It really makes you feel like Gotham is a kingdom. I think the only thing that could mess this arc up is if no one dies(I know snyder said this wouldn't happen but so far everything he's said has been a fakeout imo)
    I love the way the Joker's sick obsession with Batman is displayed here. Batman's denial of their relationship, too. I agree with this.

  4. #364

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    I'm enjoying Snyder's story, but it seems the Joker has a point about Batman getting soft. Either that or he's just not that good a detective.

    Joker appears to have completely claimed the upper hand by the simple expedient of NOT sending Batman a 'catch me if you can' gram. It feels like Batman has become dependent on his enemies providing him with clues while there is still time to put a stop to their plans. Joker is controlling the game because Batman is expecting threats and Joker is waiting a bit then sending notifications of his accomplishments instead.

    By nature heroes have to be reactive, if not then you start getting into "Minority Report" territory if the good guy is stopping the bad guys before they take action, but Bruce seems to be about a dozen steps behind this time around. I think Snyder needs to have Bruce start taking initiative back very, very soon here. It's been spelled out pretty clearly that Joker's plans are have basically been accomplished by the time he sends his tip-off, Bruce would be an idiot to keep following the trail of bread crumbs Joker leaves him any further.

    Quote Originally Posted by adkal View Post
    Yup - 'the whole 'back when we were full of vim and vigour' works fine for the old DCU (with a history of nearly 15 years), not for this current one (with a history of, barely, 5)'
    DC never should have tried to apply the five year to "Batman", it just doesn't work well and that should have been clear from the moment they decided to keep 3 former Robins + Damian in continuity. I've yet to see ANY advantage to making Batman's history so short and most the writers seem to want to ignore this silly restraint anyway.
    Last edited by Kizmet; 11-15-2012 at 08:38 AM.

  5. #365
    Junior Member TheDarkNut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whip Whirlwind View Post
    It made Bruce seem mentally unstable, so I wasn't a fan. Don't see why it couldn't be first person.
    Thinking in your head makes you mentally unstable? Well, I guess I'm going to the doctors then.

  6. #366
    Dark Knight Detective DarkKnghtJared's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kizmet View Post
    DC never should have tried to apply the five year to "Batman", it just doesn't work well and that should have been clear from the moment they decided to keep 3 former Robins + Damian in continuity. I've yet to see ANY advantage to making Batman's history so short and most the writers seem to want to ignore this silly restraint anyway.
    There isn't a five year timeline with Batman. There is with the Robins, which is a little messed up, but Batman's apparently been doing his thing for at least 6-7 years.

  7. #367
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkKnghtJared View Post
    There isn't a five year timeline with Batman. There is with the Robins, which is a little messed up, but Batman's apparently been doing his thing for at least 6-7 years.
    Yeah Joker showed Up in six years ago so batman was there a year before that. and the batsignal didn't get there until 6 years ago so batman was around for atleast a year before that dealing with the red-hood

  8. #368
    I'm Not Daredevil. Matt Murdock's Swagger's Avatar
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    I have enjoyed both arcs by Snyder but in both stories it seems like Batman has replaced Robin as beeing the new "boy hostage".

  9. #369
    Critical Critic nosocialize100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkKnghtJared View Post
    There isn't a five year timeline with Batman. There is with the Robins, which is a little messed up, but Batman's apparently been doing his thing for at least 6-7 years.
    Now that you mention the timeline I started thinking about how Joker said he's sick of all Batman's partners and wants to go back to the old ways. But that is only a year or 2 right? Not lot of time passed there where he wasn't without some teammate.
    I write comic book reviews every Wednesday using pages from each book. Check it: Is It Good?: All the Best Books of the Day Reviewed!

  10. #370
    Senior Member adkal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkKnghtJared View Post
    There isn't a five year timeline with Batman. There is with the Robins, which is a little messed up, but Batman's apparently been doing his thing for at least 6-7 years.
    The timeline's extended since this is, basically, one year later - so Dick's been active for almost 6 years now.






    As an aside, the Jester is helping the (/a) Bishop 'usurp' power behind the scenes - but this game of chess is (temporarily) forgetting that this King is, first and foremost, a Knight (and that's going to come into play).

    The castles (Manor and Cave) have been breached, the pawns (police) are scattered, one Bishop (Gordon) is down, the 'other' (replacement) is being lured into a play, one of the squires is down and the others are blind (at the moment), and the Queen (Alfred) is captured...

    The question isn't 'can Batman turn this around' but 'how'.

    The king is supposed to defend his people from internal and external problems - the Jester has now handicapped the king from providing external aid, and the 'revelation' to come is intended to destroy the bonds from within (to a certain degree, there is a parallel with George Buchanan). However, the Jester is now overreaching and impacting influential people, which will lead to a fall from 'grace'...

  11. #371
    Senior Member adkal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desean101101 View Post
    Yeah Joker showed Up in six years ago
    Are you basing that on 'Tec 1? Isn't that cancelled out by the 0 issues?

    so batman was there a year before that. and the batsignal didn't get there until 6 years ago so batman was around for atleast a year before that dealing with the red-hood
    Anyone got access to the zero issues (I'll dig around for the posted timelines later, if I have time)?


  12. #372
    Unreasonably Opinionated Conway's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nite-Wing View Post
    I like how no one can ever really definitively put down what they don't like about Snyder's writing its all very muted whenever the discussion comes up. They tend to focus on these really irrelevant details of the story or preferences that only the most anal fan should care about and then blow it up until your no longer talking about the issue and instead arguing about the current state of Batman line.

    Now I'll ignore this and talk about what really bothered me about this issue. Nightwing really served no purpose this issue. I don't like the way Snyder writes him and when you have readers almost agreeing with the Joker than you need to get rid of his annoying supporting cast you are definitely telling the story wrong.

    I don't like the fact that Batman seems to be in a reoccurring congo line of failure when it comes to being tricked by the Joker. Unless Batman is being effected by Alfred's kidnapping there should be no reason his usual antics should be this effective at throwing him off his game.

    Finally the things that I love. I love what Snyder is doing with Joker. I love every word and I love how much he talks. I like the whole religion of crime aspect that he's drawing from those Batwoman stories in 52. It really makes you feel like Gotham is a kingdom. I think the only thing that could mess this arc up is if no one dies(I know snyder said this wouldn't happen but so far everything he's said has been a fakeout imo)
    His writing lacks subtlety. Let's just focus on this arc.

    The opening with "omens" was clunky awkward and unnecessary. The attempt to humanize Gordon (the most human character in the book) by having him struggle with smoking was contrived. Then Gordon and the entire GCPD acted like teenagers in a slasher film, which only made sense because Joker was acting like Jason Voorhees or Freddy Kreuger. Then the hamfisted foreshadowing of the floor wax killing whatever cops didn't die in the precinct. Batman in an elevator talking with Gordon, literally saying "[Joker] is meaner and angrier this time". Then for the 30th time since the reboot he charges blindly into a trap, but not just any trap. He charges down an elevated walkway over vats of chemicals that he's seen people fall into before and gets hit by a giant cartoon mallet that swings down from the ceiling. But Batman never saw any of that coming. On top of all that Joker has an easier time breaking into Wayne manor than Hush did and he looked like Bruce.

    This month we open with Batman trapped (uhg), and pounding on the steel vat whining like a kid in a locker, "Let me out! C'mon Harley, pleeeese". Snyder then takes another opportunity to have Harley remind us that Joker has "changed", before starting the ridiculous amount of monologue that defines this issue. The guy literally talks for a page about how he still doesn't understand Joker Toxin. Then the next several pages seem like an attempt to humanize Bruce by having him walk around in his suit without a cowl. Then the big reveal... Joker left a cassette tape? He didn't leave a flash drive with a video, or even an e-mail, he left a cassette tape. Then Gordon, the one guy in Gotham that doesn't cave to the intimidation, breaks down sobs like a mess and cries "Why mee?" Again Batman and GCPD fail. Gordon's place is filled with poisons and Batman watches while he exposes himself to more of that. Then we talk and talk and talk and talk with Nightwing and don't say anything except that neither of them are going to contact Babs and tell her that her dad almost died because that would mess with her arc. Then more monologue where Batman tells us he knows what Joker's plan is so "Why don't you go stand right where he expects you to Nightwing, instead of just helping me capture him." Then we get Joker's monologue, it goes on for pages without saying anything interesting. He goes on and on about how important he is to Batman, and then even longer about the "King's Court" and "jester" crap that makes Snyder sound pretentious, then at the end the big reveal... Joker knows that the Bat-Fam is Bruce and his boys! Oh my god... because even though 50,000 people in Gotham know already, Gordon and Joker didn't. Boring, predictable, and uninspired.

    Of the main titles in the last two issues the only scene that worked was the one where Alfred gets kidnapped. Definitely not a 5/5, not even a 3/5.

    Hope that was a clear enough breakdown of why this arc should be Snyder's failure and not his defining moment.

  13. #373
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conway View Post
    Of the main titles in the last two issues the only scene that worked was the one where Alfred gets kidnapped. Definitely not a 5/5, not even a 3/5.
    I'll respond to the rest when I get a chance. But if this is 2/5 - what is the average DC comic?

    It seems people are holding Snyder's work up to classics and pointing out why his isn't. Mabye that is Snyder's doing. But there are more unreadable comics than not from DC today. What does that get? -7/5?
    Last edited by Concept Coop; 11-15-2012 at 09:17 AM.

  14. #374
    Harley Licks Nite-Wing's Avatar
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    So basically its just you trying your hardest to not like this arc. What a big encompassing problem where Batman gets tricked by his most unpredictable enemy and walks around the batcave without his cowl. These problems are so gamebreaking -_-

    I mean even I have a problem with Batman getting duped by the Joker this much but I'm not going to bemoan two issues entirely because this happened. Oh and Joker monologuing is great best part of this arc because more often then not whenever he talks its nonsensical dribble to get batman to crack but now he's actually saying something that matters I wouldn't change a thing about that aspect.

    I guess its just different strokes for different folks
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  15. #375

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nite-Wing View Post
    I guess its just different strokes for different folks
    That's basically it for people here. We all have different things we want from this Batman comic and to some of us, it's delivering quite well. For the rest... not so much. Me? I'm more judging this book on what it is giving me rather than what I would want and what the comic is giving me is good.

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