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  1. #1
    Challenger of the Unknown Kirika's Avatar
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    Default Weakest person who can solo HSDK

    Who can solo the entire universe of Historys Strongest Disciple Kenichi?

  2. #2
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Killy from BLAME! is my stock answer and for once he's a good choice.

    He's far too durable for any of them to hurt, his weapon is deadly enough to wipe out large chunks of a city in one shot, he's strong enough to hurt most of them with his bare hands and he doesn't need to eat, sleep or ever tire.

    They can either fight or they can run. Either way, Killy will find them and end them.
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    Moderator Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    I'm not sure on how powerful the top-end people are in HSDK...perhaps someone can help me with that.

    I'll toss out Ancestor as a possibility, because he's a solid starting point for most martial art based things.

  4. #4
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpandpointies View Post
    I'm not sure on how powerful the top-end people are in HSDK...perhaps someone can help me with that.

    I'll toss out Ancestor as a possibility, because he's a solid starting point for most martial art based things.
    Going by my memories of what you've told me of Ancestor; I think, powerful as he is, he might not be able to take the whole verse alone. They've got some absurdly fast folks to draw upon, some weird chi techniques, a lot of strength and, critically, there's a lot of them.

    One-on-one he's beyond just about everyone's paygrade but all the Master Level characters at once? As long as they can avoid his poison mists and stuff, then they should be able to put him down in my opinion though they will suffer heavy casualties.
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    Moderator Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Eeenteresting.

    How hard do they hit, Class-wise or feat-wise? How fast is fast? What kinds of qi techniques? How's their durability? I don't know any of these things. :(

  6. #6
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpandpointies View Post
    Eeenteresting.

    How hard do they hit, Class-wise or feat-wise? How fast is fast? What kinds of qi techniques? How's their durability? I don't know any of these things. :(
    Erm... well it varies from character to character obviously but I'll try and give a ballpark thing. This is looking at the masters because the other characters really don't matter against someone like Ancestor and would only get in the way.

    Strength: Generally, they treat reinforced concrete in much the same manner as you or I would treat polystyrene. The results of them battling with someone on their level causes them to destroy the building they are in. One of the strongest strength feats we've seen was Apachai's "Return from Death," punch, which sent the guy he hit through several floors and walls of a big military skyscraper and landing a good few hundred yards away from the base in one hit. As well as that, we've got; smashing boulders the size the size of minivans and the like with little effort, bringing down helicopters with knee strikes, parting the waters in a swimming pool by kicking at it, flipping tanks over, blasting giant holes in the sides of big cargo ships with palm strikes, flinging acorns so hard that they are mistaken for bullets, etc. I can list more if you like.

    Speed: This is their most crazy feat. You've got multiple afterimage tricks, people having fights all throughout a Chinese restaurant across two floors without appearing to move while both are holding back, moving so fast that their movements are still blurs when they are slowed down to 1/1000th their real speed, cutting multiple shapes into a waterfall so fast that they can do four large shapes before the water even begins to move, constructing giant statues of Buddha made of structural steel girders in literally an instant, carving statues mid combat, running around 200 km across the ocean in around 20 minutes or so, becoming utterly invisible to onlookers through sheer speed even when they're doing the equivalent of running in a small circle and, of course, absurdly casual bullet timing of a high level.

    Skills: This varies a lot but they all have some weird stuff to fall back on. Some people can utterly bypass outward defence to attack organs directly, you've got dudes who have super advanced grappling so they can chain human bodies together in inescapable knots, throwing people without touching them, body reading, moving organs within the body so they are harder to hit and other low level wacky junk like that. Hayato, the mack daddy of the series, has shit like apparently flying, super ventriloquism, apparent chi blasts using super directed air pressure, memory wiping and splitting his consciousness so the two halves of his body can fight independent of each other. But he's considered a freak even by the standards of his own verse. Nothing quite as esoteric as Ancestor but useful tricks certainly.

    Durability: This is arguably their weakest stat. It's a lot predicated on who they can take hits from. Take the above strength feats and in general, they can take a lot of hits from that kind of level but if they take hit in a vital area that they aren't prepared for then they feel it a lot. Ancestor could, quite reasonably, likely one-shot almost anyone in the series. This is why he has a shot but I think the Zerg rush might work for the HSDK side. To be honest, they don't tend to take solid hits that much... but yeah. See the above strength feats and treat those like normal-ish hits.

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  7. #7
    Everything for Big Fire BitVyper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpandpointies View Post
    I'm not sure on how powerful the top-end people are in HSDK...perhaps someone can help me with that.

    I'll toss out Ancestor as a possibility, because he's a solid starting point for most martial art based things.
    At the high end, I would say think Ranma-ish with less super strength in general (I don't believe anyone's pulled off anything like the lift in his fight with Kumon Ryuu, but there's still plenty of super strength) and less fantastical special moves, but still a lot of techniques based in reality and amped up to supernatural levels. There's still some fantastical stuff though, like Hayato running on water, and one character who might be immortal. Overall, there's a focus on technique that actually successfully depicts a very high level of skill in the fighters as opposed to the usual shonen power escalation way of doing things, which is why I use Ranma as a point of comparison, since he also avoided that particular narrative trap. Speedwise, I'm pretty sure they've got some good bullet time feats, but I can't remember any. I may be completely wrong though, so it'd be nice if someone verified. Notably, however, while there are quite a few characters in the upper tiers of the master class, most of the fighters are not at this level and do not have these feats going for them.

    On that note, I would bet on Ranma himself being about the weakest character who could solo everyone in the setting in a technical sense, since a lot of his power comes from just having a very good combination of abilities, skill, physical stats, and (fight related) intelligence. Skillwise, he's at least in their top tier if not higher, and statwise he's definitely got enough going for him that none of the disciples or lower tier masters are much of a threat. I would also say he surpasses them in terms of durability by a fair margin. Ever since the bee training, even people who have the same level of speed and skill as him tend to have a very difficult time actually landing hits without other advantages, and he also examines fights entirely outside the box, which HSD characters (with a couple exceptions) tend not to do so much - they're fairly straightforward in terms of their chess match like view on their fights. Not that it ever stops them from using their abilities, just from a tactical standpoint, Ranma is more likely to outgenius them. Ultimately though, it comes down to the Hiryu Shoten Ha - a lot of powerful, bloodlusted opponents, the majority of which aren't really a threat to him means he can unleash one mean tornado. He may not even need to complete the spiral step if they surround him. There's a couple of fighters who might realise something is going down, but the number of fighters on the field means they won't be able to stop it.

    Hayato and some of the other masters can probably get out of it relatively unscathed, but that leaves their numbers massively reduced, and Ranma is good enough to handle what's left without getting bogged down
    Last edited by BitVyper; 11-08-2012 at 09:04 AM.
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  8. #8
    Moderator Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    Strength: Generally, they treat reinforced concrete in much the same manner as you or I would treat polystyrene. The results of them battling with someone on their level causes them to destroy the building they are in. One of the strongest strength feats we've seen was Apachai's "Return from Death," punch, which sent the guy he hit through several floors and walls of a big military skyscraper and landing a good few hundred yards away from the base in one hit. As well as that, we've got; smashing boulders the size the size of minivans and the like with little effort, bringing down helicopters with knee strikes, parting the waters in a swimming pool by kicking at it, flipping tanks over, blasting giant holes in the sides of big cargo ships with palm strikes, flinging acorns so hard that they are mistaken for bullets, etc. I can list more if you like.
    Okay, these are pretty impressive. Pretty darned impressive. I'd back these guys against LOTS of fictional martial artists.

    This is going to sound bad, I know, but Ancestor takes hits like this and and walks through them. Apachai's 'return from death' punch is stuff he tanks regularly with absolutely zero sign of damage. It takes getting hit by someone who, for example, blasts apart boulders that are literally the size of two houses stacked on top of each other to cause him any appreciable damage.

    Additionally, his qi-healing is such that he can have his skull literally busted into hundreds of fragments - X-ray view in the comic shows it made up of nothing more than little cracks and shards under the skin - and, after exerting his qi for an instant (the exertion of which breaks up the ground for about 50' in all directions into boulders the size of VW Beetles), is just fine.

    He has had ribs torn cleanly out of his body by a being that was even stronger than himself, mid-fight, and just kept trucking along until he (yes) won the fight. Crazily enough.

    The stuff you describe above would be enough to allow the HSDK guys to hang with the mid-level Dragon-Tiger Gate characters with regards to striking power. Ancestor literally ignores these guys as unimportant unless they get in way while he's thumping on someone worth his while.

    Speed: *clipped for space*.[/quote]

    Here, they stand to have an advantage on Ancestor. It's hard to judge speed in DTG, but here's basically how it plays out.

    Tiger Wong is the fastest dude in the series, supposedly. He consistently uses his special kicking techs and raw speed to blitz everyone. Including a dude who has caught bullets between his fingers, and another dude who has reacted to fired tank shells.

    Ancestor consistently beats the snot out of Tiger, landing hits on him without a huge deal of effort. He has to work a little, but that's all. This, in a series that actually treats speed without PIS, faster people consistently blitzing slower people and avoiding their attacks.

    Additionally, Tiger does stuff like take his fastest techniques to attack Ancestor, and often ends up with them getting blocked. For example, he attacks Ancestor with what looks like Dancing Dragons, a multi-kick attack, and delivers it full power. The art demonstrates Ancestor in a blocking posture, using his palms, Tiger's legs disappearing into a blur of dozens of feet, and fifty+ impact flashes from the attack. All in one panel, from a guy who blitzes bullet-timers.

    Ancestor blocks them all, then darned near folds Tiger in half with a palm strike. His next palm strike shoots a bar of qi through Tiger's back that puts a hole in the clouds miles above.

    Ancestor has also been showing 'remote-controlling' his sword at a distance with such speed and reflexes that the FIRST strike of it takes hair off a frantically dodging Tiger Wong's head (again, this dude blitzes bullet-timers) and the second would have impaled him from behind had Tiger not been saved by the intervention of one of Ancestor's old 'friends'.

    There's also this sword that is shown drilling through rock so fast it's a blur. When it attacks a high-level martial artist (even in this comic), he can't defend against it - he has to put up an omnidirectional qi shield, because he can't follow its movements. When it flies in a straight line, it's speed is such that the ROCK beneath it cracks (a meter beneath it).

    This sword attacks the guy, almost gets through his shield, then another superpowerful martial artist slams his palm against its pommel. The sword (still flying, impelled by the demon in it) SHOOTS through the shield and is shown to be about an inch from the defender's throat, still zipping along.

    Ancestor, who hasn't been anywhere near this fight, blur-teleports in (something he does regularly, over hundreds of feet) and catches this sword with his hand by the blade, stopping it in its tracks. This demon-possessed, rock-flying-through, flies-so-fast-its-passage-cracks-rock sword.

    Not only does he catch it, he stops it dead, and doesn't get cut at all.

    So...not sure if he's equal in speed to some of these guys, but he's plenty darned fast.

    Skills: This varies a lot but they all have some weird stuff to fall back on. Some people can utterly bypass outward defence to attack organs directly, you've got dudes who have super advanced grappling so they can chain human bodies together in inescapable knots, throwing people without touching them, body reading, moving organs within the body so they are harder to hit and other low level wacky junk like that. Hayato, the mack daddy of the series, has shit like apparently flying, super ventriloquism, apparent chi blasts using super directed air pressure, memory wiping and splitting his consciousness so the two halves of his body can fight independent of each other. But he's considered a freak even by the standards of his own verse. Nothing quite as esoteric as Ancestor but useful tricks certainly.
    Nice.

    The attacking organs directly thing might hurt Ancestor but, as noted, his ability to simply ignore actual damage is immense and his qi regeneration operates at This Is Stupid levels. :)

    Special stuff includes area blasts that...well, blow lots of big stuff up. There aren't a huge amount of 'energy blast' things in DTG, but Ancestor has plenty of different ones. His poison, which he can surround himself with. Flight. Shrugging off pressure point stuff because his qi is just so strong. Remote controlling his magic sword of the week at such speed and precision it can skewer Tiger Wong.

    Self-ressurection.

    But I've never seen him do the weird stuff like memory wiping.

    Flight, yes. Fast enough that he can easily intercept and blow up a 767 airliner. Precise enough that he can dive, at full speed, from several miles up and stop on a dime holding someone's head six inches above the ground while they pee themselves. With a giant katana stuck through him the whole way.

    Note - the next time one sees him, which is just after that situation, the katana is no longer stuck through him and he shows no sign of injury. :(

    Durability: This is arguably their weakest stat. It's a lot predicated on who they can take hits from. Ancestor could, quite reasonably, likely one-shot almost anyone in the series. This is why he has a shot but I think the Zerg rush might work for the HSDK side. To be honest, they don't tend to take solid hits that much... but yeah. See the above strength feats and treat those like normal-ish hits.
    Then...he one shots them, yeah, good call. Ancestor does stuff like hit people with palm strikes that fire them hundreds of feet through the air into -

    1. The side of a mountain, where they make a crater that, going by the building next to the crater, was about 80' wide.
    2. The ground, from the air, where they literally blow a hole straight through a hill and cause an explosion that rises a couple of hundred feet into the air.

    He hits a guy strong enough to block his attack - the guy does block, and the ground around them explodes for a 100' in all directions into (again) small-car-sized boulders. Ancestor shrugs, zips in with speed, and cuts the same powerful guy's head in half. With his hand.

    Just him fighting sword against sword with a peer of his causes a blaze of qi edges bouncing from the clash of their weapons that literally cuts down a forest for, again, over a hundred feet in all directions and nearly kills everyone nearby (said people including Tiger Wong). The forest doesn't fall in 'cut trees' either - the trees are chopped up multiple times.

    Speed is the killer here, and I'm not sure the speed is sufficient to prevent Ancestor from firing off his One Thousand Escaping Poisons tech, or simply taking to the air and raining hell down from above while remote-controlling his sword to kill more people.

    Granted, these guys sound like they'd do quite well against some of the name-level people in DTG, or flat-out kill them, thanks to speed and sufficient hitting power.

    It's just that Ancestor treats pretty much everyone in his own series like a slow Tuesday, except the occasional Godly Threat (whom he eventually beats anyway) or You Killed Someone I Care About/You Killed Me And I'm Back From The Dead Tiger Wong (aka Marty Stu).

    ...and he usually wins those fights as well, they just hurt him badly enough or ruin his plans sufficiently that he ends up leaving in disgust after beating Tiger down again. :)

  9. #9
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Ah, I had forgotten how well Ancestor could heal. That changes things a bit.

    My view is that... let's say Hayato, Apachai, Jenzard, Hongou, Alexander Gadier and Shigure (The fastest dudes in the series by feats) blitz him, because I think they are all quite a bit faster than him, and try to hold his attention with their best shots.

    While that's happening, the slower team; the Kensei Brothers, Ogata, Agaard and the rest of the Masters all go for their moves that bypass durability the best and go for his heart, brain, lungs, an internal organs extravaganza essentially and hope that the sheer amount of damage plus the number of fists in face will prevent him from effecting healing. Also, Hayato wipes his memory, because that can't hurt.

    It's a long shot and he utterly destroys any single one of them in straight combat because he's just plain better but it's the best shot they have.
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    Moderator Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    This strategy at least has a hope of coming out a head, I agree. It's there, it's a possibility, it makes good use of their advantages. I like it.

    And a brain-wiped Ancestor doesn't operate at his best levels, I admit. That happens in the series at one point.

    ...though he still makes mincemeat out of a couple of people while brain-wiped. It just takes him a while to get it in gear.

  11. #11
    Strategist sun tzu's Avatar
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    I imagine Light Yagami can take them.
    Not in Kazan, though. For that, you'll need Ryuk.

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    Eleventh Reincarnation Siriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sun tzu View Post
    For that, you'll need Ryuk.
    They can still take his Death Note away, since that's not intangible.:P
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    Everyone's favorite host Guy Smiley's Avatar
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    Mind you, we still haven't seen Hayato go full-out. He's done stuff like blitz the youngsters while claiming to be operating at some ridiculously-tiny fraction of his true strength, but he's never really exhibited his full strength that I can remember. He also apparently once had a fair amount of trouble with Jenazard, IIRC, which honestly seems kind of SMvsFL considering that Jenazard ended up losing to Hongo.

    Admittedly, Hongo regularly does stuff like this:

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    But Hongo is on Sakaki's level, and Sakaki is supposedly at least a tier lower than Hayato.

  14. #14
    Senior Member Kuro's Avatar
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    Not necessarily the weakest, but I still think Ranma would be a damn good fight against Hayato. I know he takes the other masters though.

  15. #15
    Senior Member Kuro's Avatar
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    Oh, and how about Nagi from Tenten or some of the higher ups from Ikkitousen?

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