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  1. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zen-aku View Post
    The only way to deal with beuracracies and politics is to declare war, and install your own puppet governments which is wrong.

    Black ops may not fix the problem but it eliminates those who will stop the problems from getting better
    Black opps is a deliberate act. When you take an oath as a member of the armed services you take the oath to preserve, protect and defend. Black opps is deliberately deciding to break that oath and if you are going to break it anyway why take the oath in the first place?

  2. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zen-aku View Post
    So dose Scott.
    What country would that be? As I recall the last mutant country was obliterated. Did the world cry for all those who died?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zen-aku View Post
    you can blame the system, but you have to acknowledge that the actions of individuals can't be used to condemn the hole group, tha tis the exact type of narrow thinking that X-men are supposed to be fighting aginst
    If that is true then doesn't the group have an obligation to police itself? Tell who in the mu was ever successfully prosecuted for a black opp?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zen-aku View Post
    Or to pardon you and reverse a bs call by a previous administration, Listen peace isn't easy, that's why its worth fighting for. people are so quick to compare The X-men to the civil rights movement of the 60's with out getting the major lesson from it. you can't fight hate with more hate, Understanding and patience will get you what you wan't Not Punching every one who disagrees with you till, nothing lasting has ever come from that route.

    thats no the same thing as a war between entire people and goverments
    I'm not saying that peace is easy or that it isn't worth fighting for; I'm saying that it is very hard to find peace when a part of the government is intent on wiping you out and the rest of the government will look the other way because it is a black opp. What are the options when parts of the government go outside of the law? Who do you call?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zen-aku View Post
    more likely its a statement. the only "Mutants win the war" Future weve seen was house of M and that sucked majorly for humanity
    Again that is the limitation of the marvel writers and editors.

  3. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Truthfully we don't know for a fact if either the warden or Magik actually killed anyone in that story. Either way, I'd argue both deserve to be legally held accountable for their actions. But it's questioanable whether or not either will. The world is an imperfect place.
    So what is the point in the mu of following any of the laws if they can be broken with so much ease and so few consequences? I would argued that the mu isn't an imperfect place, it's a perfect example of an absolute cynical place.

  4. #319
    Elder Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_S View Post
    So what is the point in the mu of following any of the laws if they can be broken with so much ease and so few consequences? I would argued that the mu isn't an imperfect place, it's a perfect example of an absolute cynical place.
    It's certainly not true that EVERYONE in EVERY instance can get away with breaking the law. Heroes apprehend villains all the time.

    But if you're a character like Magik that's going to be actively used in a book, odds are good you're not going to be arrested and put in jail for obviously functional storytelling reasons. That's just how it is. There's no perfect middle ground there. I don't think you can tell stories where no one breaks the law, nor do I think you can tell stories where everyone serves a proper jail sentence every time they break it. That's not to say they can't do it a bit more often than they do.... but essentially this is how comics need to work. It's not necessarily fair, but ultimately that's not necessarily the most important consideration when you're making comics.

  5. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    It's certainly not true that EVERYONE in EVERY instance can get away with breaking the law. Heroes apprehend villains all the time.

    But if you're a character like Magik that's going to be actively used in a book, odds are good you're not going to be arrested and put in jail for obviously functional storytelling reasons. That's just how it is. There's no perfect middle ground there. I don't think you can tell stories where no one breaks the law, nor do I think you can tell stories where everyone serves a proper jail sentence every time they break it. That's not to say they can't do it a bit more often than they do.... but essentially this is how comics need to work. It's not necessarily fair, but ultimately that's not necessarily the most important consideration when you're making comics.
    I understand that but that wasn't my complete point. My point was that laws exist in the mu on a very simplistic and casual level as far as the characters and the writers go. Anyone can break any law they want so long as they are -as you point out- in an on going title or a fan favorite. it has simply gotten to the point where the laws are like death: toothless and there only for plot points or plot shifts. The basic message is that as long you as have power or have good pr you don't have to worry about the law or in many cases past deeds. All can be forgiven/forgotten after a few good beatings and/or a mini-series showing how much the character cries about what they have done. It's a cynical comic book world where justice and honor have joined death in retirement. Kill as you will, destroy as you wish and you too can still be an Avenger some day.

  6. #321
    Elder Member Vic Vega's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_S View Post
    I understand that but that wasn't my complete point. My point was that laws exist in the mu on a very simplistic and casual level as far as the characters and the writers go. Anyone can break any law they want so long as they are -as you point out- in an on going title or a fan favorite. it has simply gotten to the point where the laws are like death: toothless and there only for plot points or plot shifts. The basic message is that as long you as have power or have good pr you don't have to worry about the law or in many cases past deeds. All can be forgiven/forgotten after a few good beatings and/or a mini-series showing how much the character cries about what they have done. It's a cynical comic book world where justice and honor have joined death in retirement. Kill as you will, destroy as you wish and you too can still be an Avenger some day.
    The Wrecking Crew goes to jail all the time.

    So do the Sinister Six.

    Sandman went thru a slow but internally logical reformation from criminal to reserve Avenger but it was negated because John Byrne wanted him to be a villain again.

    The last time Magneto tried to face turn he went to trial at the world court for his past acts.

    The last time Super Heroes faced a registration act for Supers the FF fought it in court.

    Now these things don't happen mainly because pretty much nobody at Marvel wants to write a story taking place in a court room unless they are forced to.

    You can count the number of "Matt Murdock actually being a Lawyer" stories on the fingers of a single hand for the Bendis, Brubaker and Diggle Daredevil runs combined (tho Bru did more with stuff with Matt's Law Office than most).

    In 1986, Red Hulk might have been had to do time, thwart a prison breakout by other super crooks, then help out the Avengers on some probationary basis on another adventure before getting full Avengers membership.

    But Bendis and Leob don't have the patience for any of that, they wanted Red Hulk in the Avengers now.

    If nobody wants to write a court room trial story and nobody aside from Bendis (and Gage) wants to write the "______ breaks out of jail yet again" story, you aren't going to get the explanations for stuff that you seem to require.

  7. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vic Vega View Post
    The Wrecking Crew goes to jail all the time.

    So do the Sinister Six.

    Sandman went thru a slow but internally logical reformation from criminal to reserve Avenger but it was negated because John Byrne wanted him to be a villain again.

    The last time Magneto tried to face turn he went to trial at the world court for his past acts.

    The last time Super Heroes faced a registration act for Supers the FF fought it in court.

    Now these things don't happen mainly because pretty much nobody at Marvel wants to write a story taking place in a court room unless they are forced to.

    You can count the number of "Matt Murdock actually being a Lawyer" stories on the fingers of a single hand for the Bendis, Brubaker and Diggle Daredevil runs combined (tho Bru did more with stuff with Matt's Law Office than most).

    In 1986, Red Hulk might have been had to do time, thwart a prison breakout by other super crooks, then help out the Avengers on some probationary basis on another adventure before getting full Avengers membership.

    But Bendis and Leob don't have the patience for any of that, they wanted Red Hulk in the Avengers now.

    If nobody wants to write a court room trial story and nobody aside from Bendis (and Gage) wants to write the "______ breaks out of jail yet again" story, you aren't going to get the explanations for stuff that you seem to require.
    Don't need explanations, just pointing out a fact that I have observed time and time again. I expect the Wrecking Crew and the Sinister Six to do the crime, do about five seconds of jail time and then go back out when another writer needs them. Like Crusher Creel in the latest Ms. Marvel series. I accept the fact that the writers use them as props and that there are no real reasons for their actions. I consider it a lazy way to write the villains but I accept it. But for the most part so long as you have the right backing, what Bruce Willis once called "The Juice" in a Miami Vice episode, then there are really no laws except the law of who can hit the hardest. So anyone with the right pr and the right fan base can do anything and be excused with very few lasting consequences.

  8. #323
    Elder Member mikekerrIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_S View Post
    Black opps is a deliberate act. When you take an oath as a member of the armed services you take the oath to preserve, protect and defend. Black opps is deliberately deciding to break that oath and if you are going to break it anyway why take the oath in the first place?
    Real black ops don't require violating that oath, just the fictional musings of clueless writers do
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  9. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikekerrIII View Post
    Real black ops don't require violating that oath, just the fictional musings of clueless writers do
    So you hire people for the specific reason that they can break laws that you can't in good conscience break? How is that different?

  10. #325
    Elder Member mikekerrIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_S View Post
    So you hire people for the specific reason that they can break laws that you can't in good conscience break? How is that different?
    Black Ops are done outside the jurisdiction of US laws. They are black becasue they are diplomatically/politically dangerous or they violate the laws of the nation they occur in. Breaking a foreign nations laws is not a violation of the Constitution and most of the time not a violation of US law.
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  11. #326

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_S View Post
    Tell who in the mu was ever successfully prosecuted for a black opp?
    Bucky Barnes.

  12. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikekerrIII View Post
    Black Ops are done outside the jurisdiction of US laws. They are black becasue they are diplomatically/politically dangerous or they violate the laws of the nation they occur in. Breaking a foreign nations laws is not a violation of the Constitution and most of the time not a violation of US law.
    What about black opps done in this country?

  13. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by davew128 View Post
    Bucky Barnes.
    Good point.

  14. #329
    Elder Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_S View Post
    I understand that but that wasn't my complete point. My point was that laws exist in the mu on a very simplistic and casual level as far as the characters and the writers go. Anyone can break any law they want so long as they are -as you point out- in an on going title or a fan favorite. it has simply gotten to the point where the laws are like death: toothless and there only for plot points or plot shifts. The basic message is that as long you as have power or have good pr you don't have to worry about the law or in many cases past deeds. All can be forgiven/forgotten after a few good beatings and/or a mini-series showing how much the character cries about what they have done. It's a cynical comic book world where justice and honor have joined death in retirement. Kill as you will, destroy as you wish and you too can still be an Avenger some day.
    The real world courts aren't that far behind either. Most law enforcement have to jump through hoops to get evidence to trial. And then if there is a conviction it is a slap on the wrist. The prisons are full, and there is more leniency in sentencing and the criminals can play the system.

    All the MU is showing is a reflection of this soft on crime approach. Of cause, there are always the vigilantes like Punisher and the Mutant Racist gangs who don't depend on the legal system and just take the law into their hands. The MU is a special case, because if the law operated the same way, the super criminals would have an easy road back onto the streets, so some action is taken that doesn't quite meet the provisions of the real world. SHIELD is one of them. The Raft, Cube and ARMOR are others.
    Visited NY and DC and saw Spider-Man Turn off the Dark.

  15. #330
    Elder Member mikekerrIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_S View Post
    What about black opps done in this country?
    Those are called "crimes", is there any evidence that they happen?
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