Fantastic Four time line

[Polar Bear]

Tolworthy, I'd enjoy reading your ruminations on Englehart I and Englehart II (writing as Harkness), in the same way you just did on Byrne, Waid, and Hickman. I'm particularly intrigued at your description of Englehart I as ending all problems and Englehart II as creating chaos.

[tolworthy]

Tolworthy, I'd enjoy reading your ruminations on Englehart I and Englehart II (writing as Harkness), in the same way you just did on Byrne, Waid, and Hickman. I'm particularly intrigued at your description of Englehart I as ending all problems and Englehart II as creating chaos.

I am a huge Englehart fan. I know that others say he's misogynist and his other 1980s stuff is poor, but everything I've seen has really clicked with me.

The key to his FF run is to realize that only 12 issues contain the story he intended:

304-311, 313, 320-321, and Annual 20.

None of these were totally free of editorial influence of course: any comic is a collaboration, and involves give and take. But in the other issues the editors basically stopped him doing what he planned, often with little or no prior notice (the same treatment led to Simonson leaving the Avengers at the same time, and they both left Marvel after their FF runs). Editorial bludgeoning ranged from forced crossovers to forced reversals of the plot to complete clumsy rewrites of his dialog (issue 21). And even his 12 issues were written with one arm tied behind his back: his classic 1970s work was notable for its contemporary references, which made it feel alive and relevant, but all references to dates or current eventswere pretty much banned by the 1980s.

Still, his 12 issues were, in my opinion, superb. Seen in the context of a 28 year story they tie up every loose end and resolve every long term subplot: the angst that defined the book since Kirby left is finally lifted and things are moving forward again. not everyone liked the new direction, but when we only consider those 12 issues I think they were pretty good.

Englehart identifies 322 onwards as the end of The House of Ideas. Without knowing the background these can be seen as weak issues. Even when we know the background, some readers accuse Englehart of being childish - all the Harkness stories are basically mocking Marvel's new direction. But in the wider context I believe that Englehart was correct: the changes throughout Marvel in that period (from Shooter's departure to the rise of Image) were nothing less than the end of the Original Marvel Universe. I think it was a very big deal and Englehart deserves credit for making it explicit, even though it cost him his career in mainstream comics.

Ironically I think the single worst thing Englehart did, and he was just copying Byrne, was to retire Reed and Sue to a regular house. That was an absolute disaster. Nobody wants to see Reed and Sue retire! They had promised to focus on Franklin: Reed should have crated a great lab somewhere, Sue should have built a ranch (she loves horses), they should have stayed as emeritus members. But that single image of Reed gardening was, in my opinion, the straw that broke the back of Marvel.

This is the image that killed Marvel IMO. The process of Marvel's decline can be traced back to 1968 of course, but this was the last straw. Superheroes retire?? Readers and editors hated the idea. Quite rightly! But instead of tweaking the plot (giving Reed something interesting to do) they panicked. Continuity was valued at zero, plots thrown into reverse, the 28 year continuous story was abandoned, and the rest is history.

In my opinon, anyway.

More details:

The Englehart issues

The end of the Marvel Universe

The "Harkness" issues

[zryson]

Wow! Impressive tolworthy!!

[Polar Bear]

Well, these links reduce my chances of being productive this afternoon...