How come it's so easy to become an Avenger?

[XPac]

Another potentially huge asset that Wolverine now represents is that he's essentially Xaviers heir apprarent. He's the head master of the Jean Grey school. And while I don't think Logan will or should as a rule involve any of the X-Men in Avengers issues, it's nonetheless a potential option on the table if it's really needed. If the Avengers for whatever reason need a telepath, Logan can get them one. If Logan is in a jam and the Avengers need a bit of extra help, plenty of the X-Men would be more than happy to lend a hand.

Logan is almost Illuminati level in terms of influence at this point... within the commutant community he's been given somewhat of a position of authority. Not Xavier or Scott level ... but he's still up there. And that's an asset to have.

[Wellman]

I pretty sure all it takes is one of the first 16 Avengers giving you a recommendation and you can get in. Also one can claim that during the Initiative days it was easier, if certain Dark Avengers are literally referred to as such... so yeah it is pretty easy.

[Nomads1]

I wonder if there's any form of paperwork among the Avengers. Do they have an HR person?

There used to be quite a lot when they were tighter with the US Government. When Gruenwald was ahead of Cap's mag, he gave the Avengers a support crew (Cap was reaorganizing and leading the team then), and even a secretary in the person of Diamondback, to help him with the paperwork (talk about nepotism). This was reflected in the Avengers book during Byrne, Hama, and Harras' runs. Though Wasp had already shown the life of an Avenger chairperson to be quite burocratic during Stern's run. Not sure they ever had a HR person, though.

Peace

[Luck911]

How many people has Wolverine killed as Avenger? I am just curious on this people use Wolverine is a ruthless killer but how many people has killed as member of Avenger? Note i am not talking about how people has killed in his book or X force basically while he was member on Avenger i mean kills in a Avenger book.I am pretty sure the amount is zero(Yes he has a couple of attempts) and point being is this if Marvel was to just keep Wolverine in Avengers and say Wolverine and X-men he would look like pretty much the change hero.

Problem with Wolverine is Marvel doesn't want to make up their mind in Watx and Avengers(he is almost example super hero with a couple rough spots),In X-force and his solo book he is still a killer of bad guys antihero.Marvel trying to milk both sides has lead to this hypocritical character.At point what are people trying to defend the Avengers against they cry about Wolverine but no mention of Quake,Winter Solider,Black Widow,Rulk.It is new world in comics Gillen Iron Man will kill if nessary

You also use this issue to examine another one of Tony's principles and beliefs, his stance on killing. First he mentions killing people is bad in his conversation with the girl in the night club and then later in narration he says he had to kill an Extremis enhancile, but hated it. So Tony Stark pilots one of the world's deadliest weapons, but prefers to use it non-lethally? It seemed like he was saying that he'll kill if he has to, but only if it's absolutely necessary and even then he won't like it?

Yeah, he's a man of ironies our Tony. Even for those only who saw the movies he's a man who made weapons and he no longer makes weapons. He still lives with that on his head though. He can make jokes about it, but the fact that he's no longer making weapons shows how he considers things. He's a man who's willing to kill. He'll do it if he believes it needs to be done, but he'd rather do anything else. His feeling is, "If I was smart enough maybe I could find another way."

He does pilot the most powerful weapon on Earth and tries to use it for non-lethal peacekeeping means. He uses it a lot like Pepper Potts' Rescue armor, which was implicitly made to be non-lethal. But it's not a Rescue suit... but it's not War Machine either. [Laughs] Iron Man is a weapon and it's the reason why he's kept this technology away from people.

So he's not Spider-Man, a guy who won't kill at all. He's more like Captain America in that he'll kill if he feels it's absolutely necessary, but he won't like it. He's a guy who sold weapons and someone like that must be okay with the concept on some level.

I don't believe the reason Tony Stark stopped making weapons was because he felt killing was bad. He makes that joke here but his ethical problems are slightly different. It wasn't about the act of killing. He's definitely a man who could pull the trigger if it would save somebody's life. That's how I see it. I think Cap would kill, but Tony is a much more problematic character than Cap. He used to make weapons. That's how he made some of his fortune and his family have a history in this.

One of better writers in Marvel thinks Iron Man and Captain America would kill,Iron Man and Captain America have both killed in their movies and Avengers.At this point people are defending something that does not exist anymore.

[Nomads1]

Problem with Wolverine is Marvel doesn't want to make up their mind in Watx and Avengers(he is almost example super hero with a couple rough spots),In X-force and his solo book he is still a killer of bad guys antihero.Marvel trying to milk both sides has lead to this hypocritical character.At point what are people trying to defend the Avengers against they cry about Wolverine but no mention of Quake,Winter Solider,Black Widow,Rulk.

That's more or less the point i mind in my post here:

Once again, I discuss creative decisions, and the creative decison to elevate Wolverine to the same high standards of conduct the Avengers always held (or, perhaps, more precisely, lower them to his standards of heroism, or maybe meet somewher in the middle), creatively, was not a good one.
I've said before, not every character has to be the same, has to be a team player, has to fit everywhere. Wolverine was so great exactly because he was exactly the opposite of that. He was an abrasive anti-hero who didn't fit well with others. He was the bad boy. Ask any girl. The bad boy losses his spark once he becomes a good boy. Marvel can't have it's cake and eat it too. If the Avengers accept Wolverine with his extreme methods, it goes against all they stood for in the past. If Wolverine mellows down to be one of the team, he looses his edge and his uniqueness. Having him join the Avengers just because of popularity and $$$ was a disservice to the character and to the team. IN MY OPINION, a bad creative move.

Asfor Rulk, have already protested his membership somewhere along the line here. Quake, I don't know enough about her character. All I've read with her was her first appearence in Bendis' Secret War, which I hated, but I hear Hickman did intresting things with her in Secret Warriors. Don't know enough to judge. Winter Soldier is tricky, because he joined as a substitute for Captain America, and the consequences of his killings was dealt with over in that book. As for Natasha, it's funny, but just yesterday I was answering a personal message about her place in the Avengers. When she began her interaction, the emphazis on Tasha was more as a costumed athlete with SHIELD connections than as a spy/assassin. It was like this in Daredevil, the Champions, the bomber jackets Avengers, etc... Nowadays, as seems to be the new "realistic" trend in Marvel, they are giving her more emphazis as a spy/assassin. So, I don't think she has a place on the main team, in the front lines, however, I liked how she was sent to use her skills to track down and locate the Exemplares in Busiek's run. So, I do think she might haver her uses as a reservist, operating behind the scenes. Doesnn't mean I'd like to see dozens of characters like her join the Avengers.

Peace

[Blind pugh]

There used to be quite a lot when they were tighter with the US Government. When Gruenwald was ahead of Cap's mag, he gave the Avengers a support crew (Cap was reaorganizing and leading the team then), and even a secretary in the person of Diamondback, to help him with the paperwork (talk about nepotism). This was reflected in the Avengers book during Byrne, Hama, and Harras' runs.

I loved that! It made the Avengers feel like a real organisation, made them feel more official than the other groups. I miss little details like that.

[XPac]

I wonder if there's any form of paperwork among the Avengers. Do they have an HR person?

Seeing as how all of them (except poor Spider-Man) are getting pay checks i would think there's all sorts of paper work involved. They're essentially government employees now.

[The Black Guardian]

Problem with Wolverine is Marvel doesn't want to make up their mind in Watx and Avengers(he is almost example super hero with a couple rough spots),In X-force and his solo book he is still a killer of bad guys antihero.Marvel trying to milk both sides has lead to this hypocritical character.

There's nothing for Marvel to make up their minds on, because there's nothing hypocritical about it.

[XPac]

I loved that! It made the Avengers feel like a real organisation, made them feel more official than the other groups. I miss little details like that.

We're getting more of a support staff these days with SHIELD agents at least. Caps liasons (Hill, Hand, Sharon), plus the house keepers Wong and Jarvis. Though I'm assuming the mansion loses Wong after Bendis New Avengers ends. I wonder if poor Jarvis won't have to pull double duty.

I also dug Squirel Girl being Cages nanny. Definately gonna miss seeing her regularly.

[Whiterabbit]

It's not like the Avengers are giving out all-powerful rings to talking squirrels or helmets with unlimited power to chimpanzees. It would be much wiser to use more caution in choosing the individuals they invite into their ranks.

[Blind pugh]

We're getting more of a support staff these days with SHIELD agents at least. Caps liasons (Hill, Hand, Sharon), plus the house keepers Wong and Jarvis. Though I'm assuming the mansion loses Wong after Bendis New Avengers ends. I wonder if poor Jarvis won't have to pull double duty.

I also dug Squirel Girl being Cages nanny. Definately gonna miss seeing her regularly.

I was a big fan of the liaisons idea & I'm one of Hill's few fans so I was happy for her to get a role. I stopped reading New when the first run of Mighty started so I missed out on seeing Hand (who I'm also a fan of) & Squirrel Girl (same again). but I'm definitely happy that the idea of support staff has started to return.

[Vic Vega]

That's more or less the point i mind in my post here:


Asfor Rulk, have already protested his membership somewhere along the line here. Quake, I don't know enough about her character. All I've read with her was her first appearence in Bendis' Secret War, which I hated, but I hear Hickman did intresting things with her in Secret Warriors. Don't know enough to judge. Winter Soldier is tricky, because he joined as a substitute for Captain America, and the consequences of his killings was dealt with over in that book. As for Natasha, it's funny, but just yesterday I was answering a personal message about her place in the Avengers. When she began her interaction, the emphazis on Tasha was more as a costumed athlete with SHIELD connections than as a spy/assassin. It was like this in Daredevil, the Champions, the bomber jackets Avengers, etc... Nowadays, as seems to be the new "realistic" trend in Marvel, they are giving her more emphazis as a spy/assassin. So, I don't think she has a place on the main team, in the front lines, however, I liked how she was sent to use her skills to track down and locate the Exemplares in Busiek's run. So, I do think she might haver her uses as a reservist, operating behind the scenes. Doesnn't mean I'd like to see dozens of characters like her join the Avengers.

Peace

I think there can be a clear distiction made between acts done during wartime or in the line of duty as a Solider/Agent/Whatever and killing WHILE AN ACTIVE AVENGER.

Black Widow Joined the Avengers in the 70's. She didn't reappear until the Harras era. But I don't see why Widow's actions while working for SHIELD (which by that point she was doing nearly exclusively) during the interim was going to be held against her. The same reasoning would hold for Quake and possibly even Red Hulk.


It would be exaggerating to say that the even classic Avengers had a strict NO KILLING EVAR!!! policy.

That is just reaching IMO.

Hawkeye killed Egghead (accidentally) an inquiry was held and he was cleared. Ms. Marvel killed The Master during the Buskiek, that was ruled an reasonable action given the situation and she too was cleared. Now Logan has been shown to do a fair amount of grunt killing as an Xmen and in his own book. If Wolverine acted in the Avengers the way he acts in his own comic or in most of the Xbooks, they'd have to hold an inquiry after every mission and nobody's explained why this isn't the case.

Even Cap's Secret Avenger team avoided lethal force unless absolutely necessary. Aside from Ant Man prematurly detonating a squad of Nuke carrring suicide bombers, the didn't kiil anybody during Bru's run. They used tranq darts during the Ellis run. There were some exceptions (usually involving Val).

But if you are a terrorist guarding a super weapon of mass desturction you made it absolutely necessary as far as the SA are concerned.

It's just that if Wolverine acts the way he usually acts and the Avengers act the way the usually act, Logan wouldn't last long. Thor, Hercules, Gilgamesh and Sersi mostly kept thier killing confined to monsters (and in THor and Herc's case wars centuries ago or off Earth or both).

If Logan's going out of his way to be a good boy on the Avengers, then that has to be addressed too.

[Nomads1]

I think there can be a clear distiction made between acts done during wartime or in the line of duty as a Solider/Agent/Whatever and killing WHILE AN ACTIVE AVENGER.

Black Widow Joined the Avengers in the 70's. She didn't reappear until the Harras era. But I don't see why Widow's actions while working for SHIELD (which by that point she was doing nearly exclusively) during the interim was going to be held against her. The same reasoning would hold for Quake and possibly even Red Hulk.

I think a distinction should also made between being capable (and having done it) of killing and being an assassin (or a killer).
There is (or, IMHO, at least there should be) a difference between killing in the heat of battle, in personal combat, and infiltrating a place to take out a target unable to defend himself against you (no matter how EVIL this target is), or killing him from afar, as the Widow, Winter Soldier and even Wolverine have been shown doing, even if it's while at work for a sanctioned governmental agency or during war time. While I won't discuss the validity of what they did, since that is something that can only be evaluated on a case by case basis, I really don't think HEROES should behave like that.
As for Rulk, I don't think he deserves the kind of redemption chance the Avengers offer for his crimes while a villain. He still had to go a long way in his road to redemption before that offer was even on the table.
Quake, as I said, don't know much about the character, only find what I've seen of her personality extremely unpleasent.

Peace