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  1. #121
    Veteran Member Nomads1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Logans a guy that's proven he can simotaneously function on 3 teams at once... and that was before he became an Avenger. If anyone has proven he can function well on a team setting, it's him.
    Again, it can be argued that, just because someone works well with one, or three, team, doesn't mean he'll be a good fit for every team (bring to attention Mr. Fantastic, and his brief Avengers' membership). Before Bendis erased the Avengers charter, many members in good standing, such as Cap and Hawkeye, repeatedly stated that he'd never work as an Avenger, due to his more extreme tatics. Had Logan been inducted in a more regulated era than the NA, he'd probably would've had to go through a probationary period, and it's quite possible that, like Rage, for exemple, he'd not have been accepted, in spite of all his experience.

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  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nomads1 View Post
    Well, I guess how effective and successful the New Avengers were when compared to the more regulated "old" Avengers can be argued. Remember, the largely weaker Kooky Quartet probably only succeded due to all those rules and regulations that Cap enforced (scheduled training sessions, monitor duty, combat drills, etc...).
    However, Cap was dealing with three ex-villains, two of which were very willing to buck authority at every turn. They were also still relatively inexperienced. In that case, Cap DID need to instill some level of discipline into the team.

    With the New Avengers however, most of them were experienced heroes with LONG histories of their own heroics. Spidey and Wolverine had fought so many foes, both solo or as part of a group, that "training" him seemed like a waste of time (although that didn't stop Marvel from trying to force the angle that he needed a "mentor" in Iron Man at the time. But that's a rant for another time).

    However, just because someone is experienced, doesn't mean that he'll function well with the team, as was the case with Wolverine before Bendis magically decided to make the Avengers realize that they've always needed him. Take Hercules, for exemple. You can't get more than 3000 years of experiance, and yet, he stayed a long time with the team, helping them without being a member, before they chose to induct him.

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    Except we KNOW that Wolverine DOES function well with teams. We saw this for many, MANY years with the X-Men. He'll bicker and fight when he has an opinion, but he is still extremely reliable in a combat situation.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nomads1 View Post
    Again, it can be argued that, just because someone works well with one, or three, team, doesn't mean he'll be a good fit for every team (bring to attention Mr. Fantastic, and his brief Avengers' membership). Before Bendis erased the Avengers charter, many members in good standing, such as Cap and Hawkeye, repeatedly stated that he'd never work as an Avenger, due to his more extreme tatics. Had Logan been inducted in a more regulated era than the NA, he'd probably would've had to go through a probationary period, and it's quite possible that, like Rage, for exemple, he'd not have been accepted, in spite of all his experience.

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    But- again- that was in periods where vetting heroes was more of a luxury than anything else. The New Avengers period had practically EVERY former Avenger walking away from the team and admitting their reluctance to come back. Cap and Iron Man couldn't afford to pick and choose who does and does not get vetted.

    And Cap WAS extremely reluctant to bring Wolverine on board. He had to be talked INTO it. And even then he still questioned the decision. But I'd argue that Cap (and Hawkeye) were proven wrong when it comes to Logan. He showed he COULD work with the Avengers. It happens. People believe that something cannot, positively EVER be done. It just wouldn't work. And then it does, and everyone's shocked that it did. (For a meta example, it wasn't not that long ago that there was a general consensus that there couldn't possibly be a GOOD Marvel movie. It was just impossible. Then Blade and X-Men came out. Or that we'd ever see a Spider-Man film. Now we have four. Or that we'd ever have an Avengers film. And we know what happened with that.)

  4. #124
    Elder Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nomads1 View Post
    Again, it can be argued that, just because someone works well with one, or three, team, doesn't mean he'll be a good fit for every team (bring to attention Mr. Fantastic, and his brief Avengers' membership). Before Bendis erased the Avengers charter, many members in good standing, such as Cap and Hawkeye, repeatedly stated that he'd never work as an Avenger, due to his more extreme tatics. Had Logan been inducted in a more regulated era than the NA, he'd probably would've had to go through a probationary period, and it's quite possible that, like Rage, for exemple, he'd not have been accepted, in spite of all his experience.

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    X-Men had similar rules about not killing too. And occasionally it was an issue, though truthfully Logan ended up fitting well in that team too. And honestly, I'd still argue Thor's kill count is pretty comparable to Logans.

  5. #125
    MXAAGVNIEETRO were right The Black Guardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nomads1 View Post
    Again, it can be argued that, just because someone works well with one, or three, team, doesn't mean he'll be a good fit for every team (bring to attention Mr. Fantastic, and his brief Avengers' membership). Before Bendis erased the Avengers charter, many members in good standing, such as Cap and Hawkeye, repeatedly stated that he'd never work as an Avenger, due to his more extreme tatics. Had Logan been inducted in a more regulated era than the NA, he'd probably would've had to go through a probationary period, and it's quite possible that, like Rage, for exemple, he'd not have been accepted, in spite of all his experience.
    I don't buy that for a second. Look at how long Wolverine was being a good little boy in the X-Men. Plus, Logan is used to following command (providing he respects it). His work for Department H wasn't really much different than Avengers. Has he killed? Sure, but so have most Avengers. He knows when not to.

    And there's no real reason Reed Richards never lasted as an Avenger, other than writers not wanting him.
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  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Guardian View Post
    I don't buy that for a second. Look at how long Wolverine was being a good little boy in the X-Men. Plus, Logan is used to following command (providing he respects it). His work for Department H wasn't really much different than Avengers. Has he killed? Sure, but so have most Avengers. He knows when not to.

    And there's no real reason Reed Richards never lasted as an Avenger, other than writers not wanting him.
    Well, with Reed they provided a semi-reasonable explanation- Reed had been so used to being a leader, and doing things on his own, he didn't mesh well with the team dynamics that the Avengers had with a specific chain of command. This is kind of the opposite of Wolverine, as he HAS proven to be able to work within a team dynamic and follow orders. He'll do his own thing, but he doesn't do anything that would jeopardize the team at large. He's actually less of a loose cannon than Reed was, which is something to think about.

    It just goes to show that a character that seems like they'd be a good fit might not work within the team dynamics that are set up, while another that you'd think would clash with the established personalities actually turns out to be a better fit than you'd expect.

  7. #127
    Elder Member Vic Vega's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RDMacQ View Post
    Well, with Reed they provided a semi-reasonable explanation- Reed had been so used to being a leader, and doing things on his own, he didn't mesh well with the team dynamics that the Avengers had with a specific chain of command. This is kind of the opposite of Wolverine, as he HAS proven to be able to work within a team dynamic and follow orders. He'll do his own thing, but he doesn't do anything that would jeopardize the team at large. He's actually less of a loose cannon than Reed was, which is
    something to think about.



    It just goes to show that a character that seems like they'd be a good fit might
    not work within the team dynamics that are set up, while another that you'd
    think would clash with the established personalities actually turns out to be a
    better fit than you'd expect.
    Reed tend to bark out orders that the rest of the F.F. follow because they have
    faith in his decisions.

    He also tends to use the F.F. as meatshields to buy him
    time to jury rig whatever device he needs.

    That kind of thing wouldn't fly with the Avengers, especially when he isn't even in charge.

    That is why the upcoming New Avengers book is going to be real interesting.

    That bunch are all leader types and they aren't going to react well to "do what I say and I'll explain later".

    Wolverine used to have a penchant for using lethal force on mooks. A lot.

    It doesn't seem to be as bad now, but the thing is that the classic Avengers didn't hold with that kind of thing, so you figure Wolverine's time with the Avengers would be kinda short.

  8. #128
    MXAAGVNIEETRO were right The Black Guardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vic Vega View Post
    Reed tend to bark out orders that the rest of the F.F. follow because they have
    faith in his decisions.

    He also tends to use the F.F. as meatshields to buy him
    time to jury rig whatever device he needs.

    That kind of thing wouldn't fly with the Avengers, especially when he isn't even in charge.

    That is why the upcoming New Avengers book is going to be real interesting.

    That bunch are all leader types and they aren't going to react well to "do what I say and I'll explain later".

    Wolverine used to have a penchant for using lethal force on mooks. A lot.

    It doesn't seem to be as bad now, but the thing is that the classic Avengers didn't hold with that kind of thing, so you figure Wolverine's time with the Avengers would be kinda short.
    No real reason Reed has to be treated any differently than the other scientist types on the team, who work a lot like him, as well. That should be the big problem: coming up with things for him to do.
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  9. #129
    Veteran Member Nomads1's Avatar
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    To those that praise Wolverine's ability of playing well with others, showing restraint in killing and being a fantastic team player, I'd point out Children's Crusade and AvsX among others, but people appearently pick and choose what best fits their arguements, so, why bother? I guess if you want to believe that Wolverine is Avengers material, you will find arguements to fit that. Of course, when you want to justify him not being fit for the team, there are pleanty of arguements avaliable for you too use. I guess, in the end of the day it just boils down to the weight you put on Logan's "excesses". So, what's the point in arguing?
    As for Reed, I found it was a great story point of how not everyone is fit to be an Avenger, even if you are the bomb somewhere else (and even if it was a tottaly editorial orquestrated story point). It was a very beliavable reason and quite in character for Reed ( I always wished we could have seen Sue do well as an Avenger while Reed "flunked"). Of course, in those days, telling stories didn't hang on a popularity contest.

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  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nomads1 View Post
    To those that praise Wolverine's ability of playing well with others, showing restraint in killing and being a fantastic team player, I'd point out Children's Crusade and AvsX among others, but people appearently pick and choose what best fits their arguements, so, why bother? I guess if you want to believe that Wolverine is Avengers material, you will find arguements to fit that. Of course, when you want to justify him not being fit for the team, there are pleanty of arguements avaliable for you too use. I guess, in the end of the day it just boils down to the weight you put on Logan's "excesses". So, what's the point in arguing?
    As for Reed, I found it was a great story point of how not everyone is fit to be an Avenger, even if you are the bomb somewhere else (and even if it was a tottaly editorial orquestrated story point). It was a very beliavable reason and quite in character for Reed ( I always wished we could have seen Sue do well as an Avenger while Reed "flunked"). Of course, in those days, telling stories didn't hang on a popularity contest.

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    Wolverine isn't 'classic' avengers material at all. That was the whole point of him joining the team. Which is irksome because Stark and Rogers recruited him to be that guy who'll do the things they couldn't or wouldn't do, and then made it a thing whenever he did what you'd expect Wolverine to do in any given situation where there's an opportunity to solve things by stabbing people to death.
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  11. #131
    Elder Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nomads1 View Post
    To those that praise Wolverine's ability of playing well with others, showing restraint in killing and being a fantastic team player, I'd point out Children's Crusade and AvsX among others, but people appearently pick and choose what best fits their arguements, so, why bother? I guess if you want to believe that Wolverine is Avengers material, you will find arguements to fit that. Of course, when you want to justify him not being fit for the team, there are pleanty of arguements avaliable for you too use. I guess, in the end of the day it just boils down to the weight you put on Logan's "excesses". So, what's the point in arguing?
    As for Reed, I found it was a great story point of how not everyone is fit to be an Avenger, even if you are the bomb somewhere else (and even if it was a tottaly editorial orquestrated story point). It was a very beliavable reason and quite in character for Reed ( I always wished we could have seen Sue do well as an Avenger while Reed "flunked"). Of course, in those days, telling stories didn't hang on a popularity contest.

    Peace
    Considering Logan has been an Avenger since like 2005 and will likely continue to be an Avenger for decades to come, truthfully I don't see a whole lot of point in arguing about it either way. But people will likely continue to complain about it anyways because that's just how things like this work. And there's certainly nothing wrong with complaining about it I suppose, if that's how one wanted to spend the last 7 years on threads like this. But regardless of what poster A or B thinks, I think at this point the Avengers themselves consider him Avenger material. And I suppose that's really all that matters.

  12. #132
    Veteran Member Nomads1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Considering Logan has been an Avenger since like 2005 and will likely continue to be an Avenger for decades to come, truthfully I don't see a whole lot of point in arguing about it either way. But people will likely continue to complain about it anyways because that's just how things like this work. And there's certainly nothing wrong with complaining about it I suppose, if that's how one wanted to spend the last 7 years on threads like this. But regardless of what poster A or B thinks, I think at this point the Avengers themselves consider him Avenger material. And I suppose that's really all that matters.
    Sure, untill editorial position changes.
    (You DO know we are talking about fictional characters, and they don't really consider anyone, anything, right? )

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  13. #133
    Elder Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nomads1 View Post
    Sure, untill editorial position changes.
    (You DO know we are talking about fictional characters, and they don't really consider anyone, anything, right? )

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    If the editors and writers decide a fictional character believes something is right, then the fictional character actually believes it's right. That's how fiction works. A character believes something if the creators decide he does.

    You and I don't get to decide who becomes an Avenger. The actual Avengers do. And they decided Wolverine gets to be one. And certainly those are decisions which were made by writers and editors... so yeah, it's fine to say that writers, editors, and characters all consider him Avenger material if you so choose.

    Even if editorial tommorow were to change their minds and say the character doesn't deserve to be on the Avengers (something I personally doubt), issue for issue he's been an Avenger more than a LOT of guys. Even more than a lot of the classics. So he's become a part of the legacy of this franchise, and nothing can ever really take that away.

  14. #134
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    People arguing about Wolverine being worthy of being in a team where Hawkeye is longstanding member. Jesus Christ!

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_S View Post
    That was all back when they used a charter and had rules. I think that the writers today just can't handle the complications and sophistication needed for that sort story. They like things simple.
    Yeah because the writers of today are obviously just big dumb idiots writing stuff for all of us morons picking up the books every month. Maybe they should dumb things down a little more, my brain hurts.
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