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  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunstorm View Post
    These days, it's an open door policy with the Avengers to where you don't need to show your resume. As long as you have the right stuff. Before, it wasn't so easy.
    I think it's TOO easy now. Want to see an example? Thunderbolt Ross destroyed the SHIELD helicarrier, murdered the Abomination, completely crushed Iron Man, She-Hulk, A-Bomb, Thor, Hulk, and then wrecked San Francisco... oh, and punched Uatu. Then he killed Hulk, Silver Surfer, Dr. Strange, Namor, Tiger Shark, Baron Mordo, Terrax the Tamer, and the Grandmaster.

    He sucked the gamma radiation out of the Hulk, then faked his death and attempted to take over the White House. Thunderbolt Ross was eventually defeated by a rejuvenated Hulk and sent to prison. A few months later: the Hood stole the Infinity Gems and Ross joined the Avengers after helping them with one mission. It's amazing how forgetful and forgiving the Avengers are -- I, literally, only explained the Red Hulk run and completely skipped the past 40 years of the character.

  2. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by tony ingram View Post
    Well, they were bankrolled by Samantha Parrington's family for awhile, and before that by Warren Worthington (who gave them a fantastic mountain HQ) and before that by the Richmond fortune. And I gather Wong made a really great cup of green tea.

    Actually, Deathcry was never formally inducted, and Rage was an Avenger in training (until they found out how old he was).

    Valkyrie was effectively a new character and a near total amnesiac when she joined the Defenders, and Nighthawk had no experience beyond a couple of previous outings as a villain. Hellcat was pretty new to superheroing, too (just one previous recorded adventure with the Avengers). And then there was Gargoyle, a 70 year old man stuck in the body of a demon, with no real combat experience. The Defenders have never discriminated.
    Barbara had Brunnhilde's consciousness, physical body, and powers, though. Gargoyle had been a soldier and doing stuff since WWI. Nighthawk, at least, has experience with superheroes and teamwork. Hellcat managed to spend a year on the Avengers book before pulling a Wolverine.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whiterabbit View Post
    I think it's TOO easy now. Want to see an example? Thunderbolt Ross destroyed the SHIELD helicarrier, murdered the Abomination, completely crushed Iron Man, She-Hulk, A-Bomb, Thor, Hulk, and then wrecked San Francisco... oh, and punched Uatu. Then he killed Hulk, Silver Surfer, Dr. Strange, Namor, Tiger Shark, Baron Mordo, Terrax the Tamer, and the Grandmaster.

    He sucked the gamma radiation out of the Hulk, then faked his death and attempted to take over the White House. Thunderbolt Ross was eventually defeated by a rejuvenated Hulk and sent to prison. A few months later: the Hood stole the Infinity Gems and Ross joined the Avengers after helping them with one mission. It's amazing how forgetful and forgiving the Avengers are -- I, literally, only explained the Red Hulk run and completely skipped the past 40 years of the character.
    Cap let him join so he could keep tabs on him. You think he wants the maniac that did all those things you listed running around rogue? (granted he has been on his best behavior since Loeb stopped writing him)

    I would say it's easiest to join the X-men. Your application is basically filled out at birth. The hardest? The Fantastic Four. Talk about nepotism!
    "Cyclops is gonna fry for what he did. Can't wait!" - Cancerous

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whiterabbit View Post
    Barbara had Brunnhilde's consciousness, physical body, and powers, though. Gargoyle had been a soldier and doing stuff since WWI. Nighthawk, at least, has experience with superheroes and teamwork. Hellcat managed to spend a year on the Avengers book before pulling a Wolverine.
    Nighthawk didn't really have any experience before joining the Defenders. As I said, he'd only appeared twice, and had been a villain both times. And Hellcat may have appeared in the Avengers book for some months our time, but it was hardly any time at all in continuity.

  5. #35
    My dead head. Blind pugh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    It's pretty silly that Spider-Man had so many failed attempts at joining when freaking Dr. Druid got a spot by just showing up at their door one day.
    Dr. Druid had more experience than Spidey.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whiterabbit View Post
    Just building a massive force doesn't mean squat when you're bringing in people that may cause more trouble than their worth. And the Justice League screwed up just inviting everyone to join without getting to know them, like Huntress.

    You'd figure the Avengers would be wiser after fiascos with the Sentry, USAgent, Noh-Varr, Sandman, and Loki.
    The reason why they recruited guys like those is that they'd probably cause more trouble if left to their own devices, Noh-Varr especially. Sentry was brought in specifically so that someone with his power level and mental disorders could be monitored regularly.
    Currently reading She-Hulk, Deadpool, Swamp Thing, Ms. Marvel

    Probation: Ghost Rider, Loki: LoA, Secret Avengers

    Looking forward to All-New Ultimates, Flash Gordon and Doctor Mirage.

  7. #37
    Elder Member BrotherUnitNo_4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whiterabbit View Post
    I think it's TOO easy now. Want to see an example? Thunderbolt Ross destroyed the SHIELD helicarrier, murdered the Abomination, completely crushed Iron Man, She-Hulk, A-Bomb, Thor, Hulk, and then wrecked San Francisco... oh, and punched Uatu. Then he killed Hulk, Silver Surfer, Dr. Strange, Namor, Tiger Shark, Baron Mordo, Terrax the Tamer, and the Grandmaster.

    He sucked the gamma radiation out of the Hulk, then faked his death and attempted to take over the White House. Thunderbolt Ross was eventually defeated by a rejuvenated Hulk and sent to prison. A few months later: the Hood stole the Infinity Gems and Ross joined the Avengers after helping them with one mission. It's amazing how forgetful and forgiving the Avengers are -- I, literally, only explained the Red Hulk run and completely skipped the past 40 years of the character.
    Sure, just ignore the entire Parker run, which was about Ross making amends for all of the crap he did. If you read it you'd understand why he'd even be up for consideration. Besides being an Avenger was Ross's only chance to have a life beyond prison, and make something worthwhile of the rest of his time on Earth.
    Currently reading She-Hulk, Deadpool, Swamp Thing, Ms. Marvel

    Probation: Ghost Rider, Loki: LoA, Secret Avengers

    Looking forward to All-New Ultimates, Flash Gordon and Doctor Mirage.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrotherUnitNo_4 View Post
    Sure, just ignore the entire Parker run, which was about Ross making amends for all of the crap he did. If you read it you'd understand why he'd even be up for consideration. Besides being an Avenger was Ross's only chance to have a life beyond prison, and make something worthwhile of the rest of his time on Earth.
    I'm sure his redemption means so very much to all the people he hurt.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_S View Post
    I'm sure his redemption means so very much to all the people he hurt.
    Actually it did. Pretty much everyone got their licks in over that run, including Uatu who basically set an indestructible engine of obliteration on Red Hulk's tail. Thor whupped him. Namor whupped him. Green Hulk whupped him. Iron Man whupped him. Betty knocked him on his butt for being a bad dad. Even Samson tormented him in death. Just to keep things in perspective Hulk also beat up on countless heroes throughout the years, but he's still treated as a good guy. Heck, the in-fighting that took place during Civil War was easily as bad as anything Red did, and pretty much everyone's forgiven Tony Stark for locking up his teammates and close allies. The worst thing he really did was commit an act of treason.

    Beyond that he saved the day countless times along the way. He stood by the heroes when they needed him and proved himself deserving of consideration at least. You could argue that his ongoing was his probation. Even so he's still trapped as a Hulk in the outside world

    EDIT: To address the original question, I actually support the expansion of the Avengers roster because otherwise they wouldn't be a big enough force to handle all of the threats terrestial, extraterrestrial and extradimensional without it.
    Last edited by BrotherUnitNo_4; 11-07-2012 at 05:46 AM.
    Currently reading She-Hulk, Deadpool, Swamp Thing, Ms. Marvel

    Probation: Ghost Rider, Loki: LoA, Secret Avengers

    Looking forward to All-New Ultimates, Flash Gordon and Doctor Mirage.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrotherUnitNo_4 View Post
    Actually it did. Pretty much everyone got their licks in over that run, including Uatu who basically set an indestructible engine of obliteration on Red Hulk's tail. Thor whupped him. Namor whupped him. Green Hulk whupped him. Iron Man whupped him. Betty knocked him on his butt for being a bad dad. Even Samson tormented him in death. Just to keep things in perspective Hulk also beat up on countless heroes throughout the years, but he's still treated as a good guy. Heck, the in-fighting that took place during Civil War was easily as bad as anything Red did, and pretty much everyone's forgiven Tony Stark for locking up his teammates and close allies. The worst thing he really did was commit an act of treason.

    Beyond that he saved the day countless times along the way. He stood by the heroes when they needed him and proved himself deserving of consideration at least. You could argue that his ongoing was his probation. Even so he's still trapped as a Hulk in the outside world

    EDIT: To address the original question, I actually support the expansion of the Avengers roster because otherwise they wouldn't be a big enough force to handle all of the threats terrestial, extraterrestrial and extradimensional without it.
    So as long you do the good later it's ok to do the bad stuff first? A few months vacation in prison, a few beat down's and suddenly all is forgiven? I wonder when the Red Skull is going to get his chance to be an Avenger?

    To me being an Avenger is like being a Hulk these days: nothing special about either. Anyone can be one.
    Last edited by Mark_S; 11-07-2012 at 06:03 AM.

  11. #41
    Veteran Member Nomads1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monty_Cristo View Post
    i think it's weird that there aren't try-outs.
    They're not the Legion of Super-Heroes (even though I do think the Avengers have already surpassed them in number of members, and I'm talking about ALL LSH versions put together).

    Quote Originally Posted by tony ingram View Post
    The Defenders, at least in their original incarnation, were always a fairly eclectic mix of characters. Yes, Strange, Namor, the Hulk and the Surfer were Defenders. But so, at various times, were Hawkeye, Luke Cage, Valkyrie, the Red Guardian, Hellcat, Nighthawk, Devil Slayer, Yellowjacket, the Beast and the Angel, amongst others. Why would Black Cat and Red She-Hulk not fit into a team like that?
    Defenders are not SUPPOSED to be a team. They're SUPPOSED to be at the most a gathering of heroes. If you're there, you want to pitch in, you're one of us. After that, it's bye-bye (at least in theory).

    Quote Originally Posted by MagSeven View Post
    Cap let him join so he could keep tabs on him. You think he wants the maniac that did all those things you listed running around rogue?
    Quote Originally Posted by BrotherUnitNo_4 View Post
    The reason why they recruited guys like those is that they'd probably cause more trouble if left to their own devices, Noh-Varr especially. Sentry was brought in specifically so that someone with his power level and mental disorders could be monitored regularly.
    So I gather nobody in the MU has heard of prisons, mental institutions or even community service. Guys do bad things, you "punish" them by placing them in the most prestigious order keeping organization in the world, exactly where they can do most damage, just so Cap can keep an eye on them. (What an eye that guy must have.) Yeah, it makes perfect sense.

    While I do acknowledge that the Avengers have a history of redemption, I do belive you have to draw the line somewhere. That's exactly why I'll never be able to accept Wolverine as an Avenger. The team is not a vehicle of redemption for him, an oportunity to change his ways. Logan will always be a stab, maim and kill first, ask questions later kind of guy. Marvel will never allow him to wimp out and change that. So, no redemption on the table, what's the point? ($$$$$ of course, screw story sense.)

    As for the topic brought up buy the OP, this has been discussed pleanty in other threads, such as the Controversial Opinions one, the Hickman's 18 Avengers and the Should Wolverine and Spider-Man be Avengers ones (that I recall of). Basically, every writer wants to leave his mark, introduce the characters that will be central to the stories they want to tell, and, after almost 50 years, and a couple of dozens of writers, that amounts to a lot of characters. In recent years this problem has been exacerbated by the multiple teams sindrome and but the constant stunts every couple of months (the team will never be the same again, a new team rises from the ashes, etc...).
    I, for one, do feel that the team is inflated and that this has taken a bit of the specialness of being an Avenger. Let's throw everything on the wall and see what sticks. Not good for what I've always considered the elite team of the MU. As a sollution, I'd go as far as disbanding the current team, and starting a new one from scratch, to the point that, if you where an Avenger then, you may not be one now (i.e. Once an Avenger, not always an Avenger...)
    Of course, something like this wouldn't please a lot of people. In the current state of mind of Marvel, it'd be all about movie propreties and popular folks, and we'd end up with the movie crew as founders, plus Wolverine and Spider-Man, with mainstays such as Hank Pym, Wonder Man, Vision, Wasp, She-Hulk, and others left out. However, it's a risk I'd be willing to take, and something that may benefit the team on the long run. IMHO, of course.

    Peace

  12. #42
    My dead head. Blind pugh's Avatar
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    That's an interesting proposal, Nomads. My only real worry is that as you outline the team will be the movie crew plus 2 & I won't see most of my favourites anywhere in the MU as they won't be grandfathered into a team. I mean can you really see a team like Slott's Mighty Avengers getting a book if they have no claim to the Avengers name?

  13. #43
    Veteran Member Nomads1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blind pugh View Post
    That's an interesting proposal, Nomads. My only real worry is that as you outline the team will be the movie crew plus 2 & I won't see most of my favourites anywhere in the MU as they won't be grandfathered into a team. I mean can you really see a team like Slott's Mighty Avengers getting a book if they have no claim to the Avengers name?
    Oh, no. Belive me, I know oddballs teams wouldn't stand a snowballs chance in hell in the current movie oriented Marvel, and those are my favorite kind of teams (you're talking to one of the few people alive that admit out loud to have been a fan of the Justice League Detroit ). Champions, Bomber Jacket Avengers, Force Works, I've always loved those guys. The point is that, in-story, this overload of Avengers is starting to affect the credibility of the stories. Take for exemple Fear Itself. Thing were the worse ever, and yet the Avengers couldn't be bothered to call on Photon, Firebird or the Black Knight. Or AvsX. Why didn't Cap call on all the reserves and crush the X-Men? Not a single call to Quasar, Moondragon, Sersi, etc? I don't know if a smaller Avengers organization will be seen as more effective or not, if it will result in better stories or not, but, at least, it'll make a bit more sense to keep track of who the members are, what they're doing and why the team doesn't make use of all it's resources when the chips are down.

    Peace

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blind pugh View Post
    That's an interesting proposal, Nomads. My only real worry is that as you outline the team will be the movie crew plus 2 & I won't see most of my favourites anywhere in the MU as they won't be grandfathered into a team. I mean can you really see a team like Slott's Mighty Avengers getting a book if they have no claim to the Avengers name?
    I don't think you can ever go back to just have one Avengers book anymore... just as we haven't really had just one X-Men book in a long long long time. I think both franchises have grown to the point where it's not just 7 guys in one book.

    I'm sure the Avengers will "dis-assemble" again at some point. Every 100 issues or so the team will disband. But I very much doubt that will lead to just one Avengers team and one Avengers book.

    And thats probably a good thing, because there really the only way you can come even close to making everyone happy is to have multiple books. There are plenty of classic Avengers that won't get panel time if the Avengers were reduced to just one team of 7-8 in one book. And in the same breath, plenty of the New Avengers have solidified their own fan base on the team as well. Add to the issue that essentially EVERY single Avengers writer will try to add something new ... something that is theirs to the mix. Englehart added Mantis, Stern added Monica/Photon, Harras added Sersi. And they were all great IMO.

    Now in Now, Hickmans now adding a whole bunch of guys. That's just how it is, and likely how it always will be. Multiple books with larger casts is the only way that can really be juggled.

  15. #45
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