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  1. #1
    Junior Member Melab's Avatar
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    Default Ultimate Beyonder

    The original Beyonder's purpose was merchandise driven and his major aspect that people focus on is his power and never his characterization. What could or should the Ultimate version of the Beyonder be written like? What is his drive? The original's drive was to understand desire. One idea I came up with sitting here borrows the Beyonder's naïveté and turns it into a quest to determine if he is amnesiac god who created the Ultimate Marvel universe. Or he strives to understand civilization. Keep something like Secret Wars in mind, like manipulating events behind the scenes to draw characters into conflict.

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    I think the Ultimate Beyonder should be portrayed similarly to the Sisters of Fate from Greek Mythology. Mischievous and deviant. Someone who determines the very fate of the Ultimate Universe simply for his own enjoyment. In fact, I think Ultimate Beyonder should be Joe Quesada.

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    Junior Member Melab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robbie_Jee View Post
    I think the Ultimate Beyonder should be portrayed similarly to the Sisters of Fate from Greek Mythology. Mischievous and deviant. Someone who determines the very fate of the Ultimate Universe simply for his own enjoyment. In fact, I think Ultimate Beyonder should be Joe Quesada.
    I liked you idea up until that last sentence. Can I get some serious input?

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    The Sisters of Fate and the Executives of Marvel Comics share a strong similarity in being able to decide the destinies of all the characters they control. I reckon it's a cool concept.

    Seriously? I don't think there should be anything created for the UU that's close to as powerful or superior to anything else we have already, such as the Asgardian Gods, whatever Apocalypse is and the Phoenix Force. Unless it was someone who had total control of everything that goes on. Like Quesada, an actual editor that really does control the fate of the Ultimate universe. I think it would make a nice Easter Egg.

    Otherwise, I don't really want to see any single new character getting Ultimatized that possesses power greater than that of Ben Grimm's. I think there are too many uber-powerful characters already in the UU, and another would only unbalance the excitement for me. For example, the MU is much too crazy for me to conceptualise. I personally don't want the UU reaching that level of crazy.
    Last edited by Robbie_Jee; 11-07-2012 at 12:51 PM.

  5. #5
    Brian and so is my wife thetrellan's Avatar
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    If there really had to be an Ultimate Beyonder, I'd go the same route they took with Galactus more or less, and have him be without physical form, but more human in that he would communicate via disembodied voice. His purpose would be to understand humanity and he would employ travel through time, space, and the multiverse to test his pet humans.

    My personal opinion, however, is that the Beyonder was the absolute worst idea that Jim Shooter ever had.

    The artwork on the first Secret Wars was decent enough, but the plot was awful and one dimensional, basically just an excuse to have heroes and villains fight each other. It was the comic book version of a platform fighter, back before Mortal Combat, when Street Fighter and Rush N' Attack were the standard and you had to go to the local arcade to play.

    As bad as Secret Wars was, Secret Wars II was worse, although the plot at least seemed better.

    The Beyonder was later retconned into a less powerful version after Shooter was fired from Marvel.

    As far as I know, the only good thing to come out of all that was the Venom symbiote. This was an unintended result, though, that came from what was supposed to be a simple costume change, so I wouldn't really credit it as Shooter's idea. And frankly, I always thought the whole thing went a little too askew after Parker rang the bell that freed himself from the alien.

    The Beyonder himself is essentially Marvel's version of Mr. Mxyzptlk: an all-powerful, mischievous alien from another dimension who amuses himself by manipulating the most powerful beings he can find into doing his bidding. And his bidding is sheer chaos. DC comics in the 60s was just full of that kind of wish-fulfillment garbage, but they were writing for 5-year-olds and it has no place in the Marvel Universe.
    "Crucifiction? Good. Out the door, line on the left, one cross each." Michael Palin in "Life of Brian"

  6. #6
    Junior Member Melab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thetrellan View Post
    If there really had to be an Ultimate Beyonder, I'd go the same route they took with Galactus more or less, and have him be without physical form, but more human in that he would communicate via disembodied voice. His purpose would be to understand humanity and he would employ travel through time, space, and the multiverse to test his pet humans.

    My personal opinion, however, is that the Beyonder was the absolute worst idea that Jim Shooter ever had.

    The artwork on the first Secret Wars was decent enough, but the plot was awful and one dimensional, basically just an excuse to have heroes and villains fight each other. It was the comic book version of a platform fighter, back before Mortal Combat, when Street Fighter and Rush N' Attack were the standard and you had to go to the local arcade to play.

    As bad as Secret Wars was, Secret Wars II was worse, although the plot at least seemed better.

    The Beyonder was later retconned into a less powerful version after Shooter was fired from Marvel.

    As far as I know, the only good thing to come out of all that was the Venom symbiote. This was an unintended result, though, that came from what was supposed to be a simple costume change, so I wouldn't really credit it as Shooter's idea. And frankly, I always thought the whole thing went a little too askew after Parker rang the bell that freed himself from the alien.

    The Beyonder himself is essentially Marvel's version of Mr. Mxyzptlk: an all-powerful, mischievous alien from another dimension who amuses himself by manipulating the most powerful beings he can find into doing his bidding. And his bidding is sheer chaos. DC comics in the 60s was just full of that kind of wish-fulfillment garbage, but they were writing for 5-year-olds and it has no place in the Marvel Universe.
    I'd say that they should relegate him to one universe because whenever you a character that exists outside universe A then the idiots begin to call them a multiversal power. I only recognize two: TOAA and the LT. As for Mxyzptlk, he is worse than the old Beyonder.

    If they give were to give the Beyonder a human form at any point, he should look like Sinatra to contrast the Elvis-looking version.

  7. #7
    Brian and so is my wife thetrellan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melab View Post
    I'd say that they should relegate him to one universe because whenever you a character that exists outside universe A then the idiots begin to call them a multiversal power. I only recognize two: TOAA and the LT. As for Mxyzptlk, he is worse than the old Beyonder.

    If they give were to give the Beyonder a human form at any point, he should look like Sinatra to contrast the Elvis-looking version.
    Sinatra as an old man would work. To contrast him with the childish 616 version, you could make him wise instead of foolish. Give him the power to peer into alternate possibilities, but not actual realities, if you prefer. Perhaps he is confused about why, say, Reed Richards is an altruist in one universe, yet a psychopath in the UU. If fact, make the desire to understand a lie, and his truer, secret purpose to teach. That would be manipulative, and so in keeping with the spirit of the character, yet far away from what made the original suck so bad.

    And I agree that Mixy is a lame character. That's why the truth of the comparison hurts. Both characters behaved like spoiled children, just one looked like something out of Popeye and had to obey ridiculously stupid rules while the other looked like Elvis and respected no rules.

    All that said, though, I think the biggest problem I had with the idea of the Beyonder was one of execution. It was poorly written and illustrated. A more Star Trek inspired rendition (not Q or Trelane, more like the Organians or the aliens who once sentenced the away team to death by turning them into the Clanton gang and trapping them in a simulation of Tombstone, Az.) might work much better.
    "Crucifiction? Good. Out the door, line on the left, one cross each." Michael Palin in "Life of Brian"

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    Junior Member Melab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thetrellan View Post
    Sinatra as an old man would work. To contrast him with the childish 616 version, you could make him wise instead of foolish. Give him the power to peer into alternate possibilities, but not actual realities, if you prefer. Perhaps he is confused about why, say, Reed Richards is an altruist in one universe, yet a psychopath in the UU. If fact, make the desire to understand a lie, and his truer, secret purpose to teach. That would be manipulative, and so in keeping with the spirit of the character, yet far away from what made the original suck so bad.
    Neat concept. Could you explain the fifth sentence? I don't understand it and it seems to be grammatically skewed.

  9. #9
    Brian and so is my wife thetrellan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melab View Post
    Neat concept. Could you explain the fifth sentence? I don't understand it and it seems to be grammatically skewed.
    It wasn't askew, but it depended on you remembering my first suggestion, that the Beyonder's purpose might be to understand humanity.

    SWII was all about the Beyonder wanting to understand the human condition, to live and love and play as a human. He wanted to understand us, but despite all his power, he wasn't that smart, or maybe it's just that he was immature.

    For our purposes, he could seem to be doing this, to be trying to "get" people, while in reality trying to tell the person something that would help or change them.

    Human psychology is such that often the most useful realizations are the ones we resist seeing for one reason or another, usually because we're not ready to change. Telling them the truth isn't helpful because you're not telling them anything they haven't heard a million times, but if their experiences lead them to their own conclusions, that they can accept.

    That's why psychiatrists will get you to talk, but rarely give advice.

    I'm thinking of the Beyonder in a role that's a little like the Watcher's, only more talkative and more proactive. Basically, an old man who can see how our thinking gets in the way or how we need help, but also knows when we won't accept it.

    Like that, but, y'know, with time travel. Or whatever.
    Last edited by thetrellan; 11-07-2012 at 05:44 PM.
    "Crucifiction? Good. Out the door, line on the left, one cross each." Michael Palin in "Life of Brian"

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    Quote Originally Posted by thetrellan View Post
    Human psychology is such that often the most useful realizations are the ones we resist seeing for one reason or another, usually because we're not ready to change. Telling them the truth isn't helpful because you're not telling them anything they haven't heard a million times, but if their experiences lead them to their own conclusions, that they can accept.
    I must applaud you for saying this. This is very true. I'd like to go a little deeper though if I may. Rather than being emergent to new information, we stagnate and remain within a level of understanding that is the most normal to us, reverting away from anything which may argue our beliefs. Each and every one of us have a set of beliefs, a set of values. And people generally tend to be very protective of their values/beliefs. And because we then only accept which we recognise as normal, we except most information presented to us... if it is what we consider normal... regardless of accuracy.. such as what the media might say, often without question. Whether it's war, a fake democracy or whatever, we will accept it, if it is normal.

    However, thetrellan. I must also tell you off for spelling Mortal Kombat with a C in your first post. :P
    Last edited by Robbie_Jee; 11-07-2012 at 06:21 PM.

  11. #11
    Brian and so is my wife thetrellan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robbie_Jee View Post
    However, thetrellan. I must also tell you off for spelling Mirtal Kombat with a C in your first post. :P
    Never played the game much myself, but that would have had more effect had you spelled Mortal correctly. lol
    Last edited by thetrellan; 11-07-2012 at 06:28 PM.
    "Crucifiction? Good. Out the door, line on the left, one cross each." Michael Palin in "Life of Brian"

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    Quote Originally Posted by thetrellan View Post
    Never played the game much myself, but that would have had more effect had you spelled Mortal correctly. lol
    Yeah I know, that was an epic fail. I've been typing in my phone today, I posted the post, realised the mistake and then suddenly my phone ran out of battery and it took ages to load back up. I'm so gutted cuz I could have easily re-edited it without you noticing if my damn phone hadn't turned off. I wish I'd plugged it in sooner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robbie_Jee View Post
    Yeah I know, that was an epic fail. I've been typing in my phone today, I posted the post, realised the mistake and then suddenly my phone ran out of battery and it took ages to load back up. I'm so gutted cuz I could have easily re-edited it without you noticing if my damn phone hadn't turned off. I wish I'd plugged it in sooner.
    Lol it was pretty funny but that's Karma lol. As for the beyonders I thought we had them right. We found out that we the readers were the beyonders and the watchers were protecting us or something.

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    Brian and so is my wife thetrellan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robbie_Jee View Post
    Yeah I know, that was an epic fail. I've been typing in my phone today, I posted the post, realised the mistake and then suddenly my phone ran out of battery and it took ages to load back up. I'm so gutted cuz I could have easily re-edited it without you noticing if my damn phone hadn't turned off. I wish I'd plugged it in sooner.
    Nevertheless, I stand chastised. I'll try to remember that in the future.
    "Crucifiction? Good. Out the door, line on the left, one cross each." Michael Palin in "Life of Brian"

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    The magician could be the beyonder

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