LBCC: Lobdell Promises Radical Changes for "Superman," "Teen Titans" & "Red Hood"

[misslane38]

Where you feel my PR bar is lamentably low, I just think, with all due respect, you're being extremely sensitive about this.

With all due respect, I think you are being extremely insensitive. Just because you don't share the feelings of others does not mean those feelings are invalid. On the other hand, I could argue you are also being oversensitive because you have expressed being unwilling to listen to the opinions of those who disagree with your generally positive feelings about Superman books in the New 52.

You are too kind bro. I actually meant they should talk and write less about her because someone will always find a reason to moan about her. If "passion" is what drives these constant bitchin from some "fans" then maybe it's time they lose some of it.

Not true. Fans of Lois Lane continue to praise and support DC when they write her well and speak of her well. Fans complain all the time. Fans of comics -- not just shippers -- are notorious for their complaints to creators. Singling out Lois and her fans as being uniquely problematic is disrespectful and myopic.

Oh I grasp very well, I don't need to go on and on and on and disparage other posters and act as if I alone know it all. You don't as evidenced by many posters DISAGREEING with you. Rebutting all of them to say the same thing over and over does not make it so. Your opnion is your opinion. Period. It is not fact. I can say what I want to say it in a few lines. Tha damage you are afraid of his that fans may like him and WW together. That it's not Lois is the one and only. Lois could never be the one and only. Not in a million years. Not where story telling is concerned. That was DC feeding you school girl fantasy drivel, which you bought into hook,line and sinker. Go back into Superman history and the dude married different women. In many stories to come Lois will kick the bucket and Superman's future will be explored. He might sooon hook up with Big Barda in Beyond, you never know. The fact is Superman is not defined by Lois Lane at all. And its about time DC focus on him because this is the kind of nonsense they get from hurt fangirls who accuse writers of crazy things where shipping matters more than Superman himself.

You'll have to explain to me how the existence of people who disagree with me means my opinions are ill-informed and invalid. You do realize this isn't the only place in the world in which people discuss comics, right? Several respected journalists and bloggers have written pieces echoing many things I've said in this thread. But neither I nor they have suggested our opinions are facts. For some unknown reason, you keep harping on that idea as a way of avoiding addressing the points I've made. You also continue to create this fantasy straw man argument that has more to do with throwing out inaccurate psychoanalysis of my motivations. My concern, for the last time, is not about the Lois/Clark romance. I am unhappy with Lois Lane's characterization.

However, to counter a few of your "facts," I am not afraid fans may like Superman and Wonder Woman together. I am assuming there are many people who will like them together, but I also know that a more substantial number of fans, creators, and respected comics critics enjoy Lois and Clark together and believe the Superman/Lois/Clark romance is integral to the Superman myth. I've been a fan of Lois and Clark for 20 years. I'm used to waiting for them to get together; I'm used to Clark dating other women before falling completely for Lois. Believe it or not, I am willing to be patient. Contrary to your rude and inaccurate description of me of a "school girl" who enjoys drivel, I have written scores of essays featuring vetted academic content that speaks to the value and importance of the Lois/Clark relationship. You'll be pleased to know, I hope, that in the course of reading about their relationship throughout history, I have found that Superman has never married different women. In Kingdom Come and other Elseworlds, Lois was always Superman's first great love. Superman was married to Lois in Superman Beyond, for instance. He loved her deeply.

You say Superman is not defined by Lois Lane. I disagree. I believe, and history bears this out, that Lois has always been a significant part of Superman's mythology. From early comics to television to film, Lois and the triangle-for-two have been part of the fabric of Superman stories. To be honest, I'm taken aback by your shift to discussing the past. Are you not the same person who inaccurately chastised me for living in the past?

I wouldn't say that he's actively trying to downsize Lois and Jimmy's roles in the new continuity. I mean, they barely appeared in the issue. We didn't get to see those two's reactions to Clark's speech. And who's to say that Lois isn't trying to change things from the inside, taking advantage of her new position? I'll just wait and see.

Before saying anything else, I'd like to point out the potential contradiction in the two bolded statements above. Also, if your explanation for how Lois and Jimmy are not being downsized is predicated on making baseless guesses about future stories, then your argument is quite weak.

This would be true if the book was called Lois. The book is called Superman. Lois has had so much page time in Action and Superman MORE than when Byrne rebooted. Lobdell wrote one issue and we have 'character assasination'. These same people who love Lois so much termed it character assassination when they saw the preview of Superman #1 and it had Lois being very Lois...just she had a boyfriend. Their complaints reeks of hypocrisy and double standards, I'm afraid.

I guess I have to repeat this again: the issue with Lois Lane's characterization isn't about quantity but quality. She could appear in half of the issues she's appearing in now if she was written better. Byrne did more with less. I've addressed your inaccurate description of the complaints Lois fans had about Superman #1, but you ignored them. Her fans weren't upset about Lois sleeping with her boyfriend, they were upset because of how the scene was marketed in the media.

Yes exactly. And you don't hear after those stories, people in forums chanting the Lois mantra and making everyone's eyes and head bleed. The moment Lois is mentioned.. the skies darken and a swarm of complain - like a plague, fills the air. I don't want to sound like a total dick, but the Lois fandom, apparently, has become as ridiculous as religious fanaticism. And I want Supes nothing to do with her or her devotees.

As an inspirational figure to many young women, Lois fans care deeply about her character. I'm sure you can understand that as a Superman fan. When your favorite character -- a hero of yours -- is ignored and poorly written, it is a completely natural and valid reaction to be upset. To compare typical fan behavior to religious fanaticism is disrespectfully hyperbolic. Lois fans advocating for better writing for her character does not impact Superman's character in any way. Keeping Superman away from Lois because of her fans is nonsensical.

Lois, no matter how great a character is simply a supporting character. Much like Alfred/Gordon is to Batman. At this point of time, I'm looking forward to developing other characters like Emil Hamilton, Steel, Cat Grant, Ron Trope even Bibbo. I think she would forever be an important part of Supes' life, but I don't want her and Jimmy to be the only supporting characters in Supes life being developed.

Lois is nothing like Alfred or Gordon in the Batman mythology. Her role has been much more significant and should never be limited to the likes of the other supporting cast members you mentioned. Fans of Lois Lane who are demanding better writing for her character are not asking for her to be the only supporting character writers develop in the New 52. We are asking that she be written better alongside the development of the lesser supporting characters. It's not an all or nothing request, in other words.

It's Superman's book; Lois, Jimmy, Perry, etc. exist to support Superman's/Clark's story.

Is there a reason for the consistent misrepresentation of what is being said? Lois fans, like myself, have not suggested Lois be treated as anything more than the supporting character she is. We are asking -- I am asking -- that Lois be written better. Period. Not more, but better. Is that clear?

At this point, the repeated reframing and mischaracterization of Lois Lane fans' actual complaints to create more easily to dismiss straw men arguments suggests to me that some simply cannot deal with reality. The reality that Lois Lane is important, and has been so important for decades, that she has a passionate fan base who are willing and able to advocate for her character in spaces such as CBR. The reality that not everything in the New 52 is well-conceived or well-written. If you cannot address the actual comments being made, and resort to straw man arguments, then your position comes across as ignorant and rude. Stop it.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Just saying (again probably) after re-reading issues 0 and 13, I really like what I've read of Lobdell's take on Superman so far (and that includes how all the characters are being written btw) and I'm really looking forward to the upcoming issues, the stuff he was saying in the interview sounds really cool.

Pardon my ignorance, but, have we seen this Dr Veritas character before? I'm hoping to find out more of her backstory ...

I think not. I suppose we'll get to see more of her during Lobdell's run.

What I want is to see a much richer world for Superman. Lobdell (so far) and Morrison have taken the right steps in that direction. And part of that richer world is getting to populate them with characters, well-developed (in time) and interesting. Lois, Jimmy and Perry are damn important, sure, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't get to see other characters. The aforementioned Dr. Veritas being one of those cases.

[Namtab]

Is there a reason for the consistent misrepresentation of what is being said? Lois fans, like myself, have not suggested Lois be treated as anything more than the supporting character she is. We are asking -- I am asking -- that Lois be written better. Period. Not more, but better. Is that clear?

Honestly, I think you're way too close to the character -- it's glaringly obvious with your username/avatar, and the way you seemingly take a slight against the fictional character, Lois Lane, as though it was against you.

YOU want Clark and Lois to be together. YOU want Lois to be written in a way where YOU feel she is being respected.

[Zionite1]

I think not. I suppose we'll get to see more of her during Lobdell's run.

What I want is to see a much richer world for Superman. Lobdell (so far) and Morrison have taken the right steps in that direction. And part of that richer world is getting to populate them with characters, well-developed (in time) and interesting. Lois, Jimmy and Perry are damn important, sure, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't get to see other characters. The aforementioned Dr. Veritas being one of those cases.

You do realize no one is saying this?

[misslane38]

What I want is to see a much richer world for Superman. Lobdell (so far) and Morrison have taken the right steps in that direction. And part of that richer world is getting to populate them with characters, well-developed (in time) and interesting. Lois, Jimmy and Perry are damn important, sure, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't get to see other characters. The aforementioned Dr. Veritas being one of those cases.

I, for one, have not said we shouldn't see characters like Dr. Veritas. It's a little odd that she popped out of nowhere, but I'm intrigued enough to see if there's more to her. Advocating for Lois is not the same as wishing for every other character or potential storyline to be abandoned. I guess I must be one of the few who actually believes good writers are capable of carefully writing their established supporting cast while also developing new characters and ideas. I've seen it done before, so I don't think Lobdell's book or any New 52 book should be an exception.

Honestly, I think you're way too close to the character -- it's glaringly obvious with your username/avatar, and the way you seemingly take a slight against the fictional character, Lois Lane, as though it was against you.

So complaining about how a fictional character is being written poorly must mean I'm too emotionally involved? Wow. The degree to which folks here who disagree with me will resort to fallacious and borderline sexist debate tactics to avoid addressing the issues is disheartening. Using my screenname as a way to "diagnose" me and thus discredit me, however, is seriously messed up.

YOU want Clark and Lois to be together. YOU want Lois to be written in a way where YOU feel she is being respected.

Yes, both of those two things are true about me. However, I don't want Clark and Lois to be together right now. I can wait. And I really don't think it's too much to ask that a character I and many women love to be written with respect. It's not some sort of rabid shipper fangirl request to ask that Lois Lane not be written like a sell out who prefers working behind a desk to exposing corruption in the dark places of the world.

[Zionite1]

Honestly, I think you're way too close to the character -- it's glaringly obvious with your username/avatar, and the way you seemingly take a slight against the fictional character, Lois Lane, as though it was against you.

YOU want Clark and Lois to be together. YOU want Lois to be written in a way where YOU feel she is being respected.

Namtab.Im sorry to butt in but why are deliberately misinterpreting her statements.She isnt talking about clois.Shes saying Lois shld be better characterized.I agree with her and wld like to add the same gos for jimmy.Not agint new characters-in fact I welcome it,the Superman mythos needs it so much.What we are saying is not neglect the ones we do have on ground.

[Namtab]

Namtab.Im sorry to butt in but why are deliberately misinterpreting her statements.She isnt talking about clois.Shes saying Lois shld be better characterized.I agree with her and wld like to add the same gos for jimmy.Not agint new characters-in fact I welcome it,the Superman mythos needs it so much.What we are saying is not neglect the ones we do have on ground.

No, I'm taking into account her posting history.

[misslane38]

No, I'm taking into account her posting history.

My posting history suggests I prefer Lois and Clark together, but I have said consistently that I am just fine with waiting upwards of 10 years to see that relationship finally happen.

[Namtab]

At this point, the repeated reframing and mischaracterization of Lois Lane fans' actual complaints to create more easily to dismiss straw men arguments suggests to me that some simply cannot deal with reality. The reality that Lois Lane is important, and has been so important for decades, that she has a passionate fan base who are willing and able to advocate for her character in spaces such as CBR. The reality that not everything in the New 52 is well-conceived or well-written. If you cannot address the actual comments being made, and resort to straw man arguments, then your position comes across as ignorant and rude. Stop it.

The reality is on the written page, where Lobdell, on "SUPERMAN," is writing Lois any damn well way he pleases.

That's the reality that you seem to have trouble coping with.

[misslane38]

The reality is on the written page, where Lobdell, on "SUPERMAN," is writing Lois any damn well way he pleases.

Sure, he can. But if he writes her like crap, then his readers can criticize him for it as much as they please.

That's the reality that you seem to have trouble coping with.

Nope. I'm coping just fine. Expressing my concerns in a thoughtful and comprehensive manner is how I cope with writing that I don't like. It's quite common, you know. You seem to be needlessly troubled by it, however, which is curious. Maybe you're incapable of coping with criticism of the comics you are enjoying?

[666MasterOfPuppets]

You say Superman is not defined by Lois Lane. I disagree. I believe, and history bears this out, that Lois has always been a significant part of Superman's mythology. From early comics to television to film, Lois and the triangle-for-two have been part of the fabric of Superman stories. To be honest, I'm taken aback by your shift to discussing the past. Are you not the same person who chastised me for living in the past?

Lois has been a significant part of Superman's mythology, sure, but I disagree about her character defining Superman. Superman is defined by his origin and his upbringing, the values he holds dear and his will to defend them, and his ability to do the impossible, including his god-like powers.

Before saying anything else, I'd like to point out the potential contradiction in the two bolded statements above. If your explanation for how Lois and Jimmy are not being downsized is predicated on making baseless guesses about future stories, then your argument is quite weak.

Likewise, if your explanation on the Lois "character assassination" is based on what you saw in *ONE* issue (and we're talking about Lobdell's run here), then your argument is just as weak. And I'm not making baseless guesses, I'm just saying that we should wait and see before passing judgements because none of us know what Lobdell has planned for Lois. I fail to see the "potential contradiction" you are pointing out, especially after reading what you said about "quality, not quantity": Yeah, Lois and Jimmy barely appeared in Superman #13, but that doesn't mean their roles are being downsized. They do NOT have to have substantial appearances in every issue. After all, they're supporting characters.

And with this I'm not saying that Lois (or Jimmy or Perry, for that matter), should be thrown away, no. I'm all for seeing DC develop Lois as a character in this new continuity.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

You do realize no one is saying this?

What, Lois/Jimmy/Perry being important or seeing other characters?

[Namtab]

Sure, he can. But if he writes her like crap, then his readers can criticize him for it as much as they please.

Nope. I'm coping just fine. Expressing my concerns in a thoughtful and comprehensive manner is how I cope with writing that I don't like. It's quite common, you know. You seem to be needlessly troubled by it, however, which is curious. Maybe you're incapable of coping with criticism of the comics you are enjoying?

It's just funny to me, that you talk about Lois and "character assassination," when it's your posts that kill any interest I would have in the character. I guess at this point, it would be better for Lobdell to write her out, completely.

Complain and play the Lois-Fan Victim all you like, that's your right.

[Auguste Dupin]

I love these moments in the life of a forum, where any pretense of talking about the thread just disapear and that's left is two posters going at each other.
It's like watching a car crash. You know it's going to end badly, but there's nothing you can do to stop it.

[stk]

Kudos to everyone for not using the word "rabid" at any point in the argument.