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  1. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dubbilex View Post
    The Waid part of that sentence is unlikely since Waid's never been shy about the fact that he takes the same approach as Lobdell: He makes a lot of it up as he goes along. I've seen more than one interview where he's talked up that approach's ability to keep things surprising, saying, "if I can't tell what's going to happen next, then the readers can't either."
    Yup. The one that specifically comes to mind as being relevant here is his Plutonian/Irredeemable series. He has, essentially, Batman mention he's got some special plan to defeat Superman, has him make a big deal of it, etc...but has no idea what it is. Figures he'll figure it out.

    I think the real piont is that as long as you have your characters down and your themes well considered, there are a lot of appropriate plot twists and directions.
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  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Lobdell has to date published two issues of Superman, one of them an Annual.
    Wouldn't that be three issues? Superman #0 and #13, plus the Annual.

    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    The reason why it is difficult to have faith in Lobdell's promises is because he seems willing to provide specifics and spoilers about several future plotlines but nothing at all when it comes to Lois as a character personally and professionally.
    First rule of Lobdell-following that you learn in the first four months : he sometimes lies, he often talks about plans of his that aren't yet approved by editorial (his original plans for the Death of the Family ties-in come to mind) and is later denied, and because of the way he lays out stories, he sometimes loses focus over some of his own ideas.

    So yeah, a good portion of what he says will happen may not happen at all!

    Quote Originally Posted by stk View Post
    In the interests of fairness, though, it should be pointed out that Hama was working in what was essentially his own universe. He wasn't sharing his characters, and neither the regular book nor Special Missions tied-in with any larger universe. When it's only one guy writing everything and there is no one and nothing else that needs to be coordinated with, that approach probably works a little easier.
    Intuitively, I would say that Lobdell's approach fits a shared universe more than a long-term planning approach. This way, chances of having your characters and storyline derailed by events or editorial mandate are lessened. The DotF ties-in don't tie at all in any of his other stories, for example.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by stk View Post
    You are way too invested in this stuff. I realize the ludicrousness of saying that here, of all places, and being a registered member of a comic forum myself, but still... WOW
    Brilliant debate strategy you have there: 1) ask for more detail; 2) upon receiving more detail, accuse member that you don't know of being obsessed. It's a fact that DC has attempted to inflame fans of the Superman/Lois Lane relationship, and they've been pretty successful. Reactionary Superman/WW fans have been enormously useful to that effect since many of you are so willing to bash people for their opinions. For my part, I stopped buying Action Comics when JL #12 was announced because I don't enjoy being baited.

    Lobdell is a rubbish writer, and unworthy of writing Superman... though it's been a long time since talent was a prerequisite for this gig. It's fine though, I'll always have my reprints.

  4. #94
    Inf‚me et fier de l'Ítre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by burroughs View Post
    'a matter under discussion deemed to be true or correct, such as to emphasize a point or prove a disputed issue'

    Come on dude... the majority of the stories written by Lobdell are atrocious - that's a 'Flash Fact'. ;)
    ......No?
    (At least, those I read were relatively alright).
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neutrino View Post
    Brilliant debate strategy you have there: 1) ask for more detail; 2) upon receiving more detail, accuse member that you don't know of being obsessed. It's a fact that DC has attempted to inflame fans of the Superman/Lois Lane relationship, and they've been pretty successful. Reactionary Superman/WW fans have been enormously useful to that effect since many of you are so willing to bash people for their opinions. For my part, I stopped buying Action Comics when JL #12 was announced because I don't enjoy being baited.

    Lobdell is a rubbish writer, and unworthy of writing Superman... though it's been a long time since talent was a prerequisite for this gig. It's fine though, I'll always have my reprints.
    You, you didn't check Mr Holmes' link for the difference between facts and opinions. You should, it's really well explained.
    Bottom line, unless you can prove it with objective elements, it's an opinion.
    By the way, love the way you went here. First, you attack the "reactionary Superman/WW fans", then you pretend you are being aggressed by them. As you said, brilliant strategy.
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    You, you didn't check Mr Holmes' link for the difference between facts and opinions. You should, it's really well explained.
    Bottom line, unless you can prove it with objective elements, it's an opinion.
    By the way, love the way you went here. First, you attack the "reactionary Superman/WW fans", then you pretend you are being aggressed by them. As you said, brilliant strategy.
    It's okay, I'll leave the fretting about opinions to you.

    For my part, I understand that most of what is said in public forums is opinion. I'm even able to differentiate between fact and opinion based on context! For instance, when I say 'Reactionary Superman/WW fans', I am expressing an opinion. When I say that stk accused a fellow forum member of being obsessed based on her following his prompt to express her opinion, I am expressing a fact. Really! Just check the previous page.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neutrino View Post
    It's okay, I'll leave the fretting about opinions to you.

    For my part, I understand that most of what is said in public forums is opinion. I'm even able to differentiate between fact and opinion based on context! For instance, when I say 'Reactionary Superman/WW fans', I am expressing an opinion. When I say that stk accused a fellow forum member of being obsessed based on her following his prompt to express her opinion, I am expressing a fact. Really! Just check the previous page.
    But when you say "Dc has attempted to inflame Superman/Lois fans", unless you have something to prove DC has been willingly done that (instead of just not caring too much), it's an opinion you present as a fact.
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    But when you say "Dc has attempted to inflame Superman/Lois fans", unless you have something to prove DC has been willingly done that (instead of just not caring too much), it's an opinion you present as a fact.
    Why should I have to prove it when misslane38 has already done such a good job? Seriously, check the previous page. Regardless, I'm not going to preface everything I say with in my opinion because most users on this forum can understand that by implication of this being an internet comic book forum, most of what is being expressed is opinion.

    If you're just offended that I express my opinions boldly, you'll have to blame my university lecturers. Unfortunately, they never taught me that I have to footnote my anonymous forum posts.

  9. #99
    Veteran Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    What DC attempted and succeeded in doing, was simply take advantage of emotions that they knew were already going to be there. They knew a certain section would be ecstatic to see them finally pair up Superman with Wonder Woman. Likewise they knew a section would be pissed because there was a section still not pleased with the fact Clark wasn't with Lois anymore. That was just going to be unavoidable, you couldn't put Superman and Wonder Woman together under any circumstances in which a portion of the fanbase wouldn't be really ticked off. So they rolled with it.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 11-07-2012 at 02:18 AM.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neutrino View Post
    Why should I have to prove it when misslane38 has already done such a good job? Seriously, check the previous page. Regardless, I'm not going to preface everything I say with in my opinion because most users on this forum can understand that by implication of this being an internet comic book forum, most of what is being expressed is opinion.

    If you're just offended that I express my opinions boldly, you'll have to blame my university lecturers. Unfortunately, they never taught me that I have to footnote my anonymous forum posts.
    Because misslane's opinion doesn't quite go as a matter of fact, which may be problematic when you present something as a such (and not as an opinion). "It's a fact that DC has attempted to inflame fans of the Superman/Lois Lane relationship", after all. It could also be argued that DC is playing with the fact you would be offended so they can market the thing. What is the "team Superman vs team Johnattan", if not a way of marketting how part of the fanbase is for Lois and Clark being together, and another part is against it? Note that this is an opinion, as implied by the abscence of "it's a fact".

    Now, my university lecturers taught me that opinions and facts without arguments to back them aren't worth much. As for the offense part, wellI don't have nearly enough personnal stake in this conversation to be offended in any way. I mostly found amusing that you basically attacked a part of the readership while pretending to be attacked by them in the same sentence.
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  11. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    The reason why it is difficult to have faith in Lobdell's promises is because he seems willing to provide specifics and spoilers about several future plotlines but nothing at all when it comes to Lois as a character personally and professionally. The only way Lois is being talked up is in broad generalizations and specifically in relation to the men in her life. If Lobdell had something substantial on the horizon for Lois individually and her friendship with Clark, then I would imagine he would want to talk about it. He hasn't. And there is nothing wrong with being upset about a relationship one loves, and specifically a character you love, being treated poorly. Lois Lane's character was undermined in SUPERMAN #13 and she has been sparsely developed thus far; whatever progress has been made has been in her relationship with Jonathan which we never see. Meanwhile, she's only regressed professionally and nothing Lobdell has said at this point differs substantially from what's been said by others in the past year -- all empty promises. So, yeah, fans are upset and cynical. They have a right to be upset. And if that upsets you, deal with it.



    You really need to stop talking about issues you clearly don't have complete understanding or recollection of. The reason Lois fans were upset about Lois and Jonathan in SUPERMAN #1 was not because she actually had a boyfriend but the way it was promoted. It's the same reason we didn't like the way Superman and Wonder Woman's new relationship was promoted. In the case of Superman/Diana it was the way Diana was presented as a homewrecker. The copying of the For Tomorrow pose of Lois and Clark was yet another example of DC deliberately using Post-Crisis marriage scenes and iconography to intensify "controversy." They made it very clear that they didn't care if they were being rude because they just wanted to get people talking. In the case of Lois/Jonathan, it was the way DC very quickly made announcement like Superman and Lois' marriage is kaput just so they could ask us if we were on Team Clark or Team Jonathan, which of course everyone would take Team Clark's side. They specifically framed Lois' relationship with Jonathan, and continue to frame it and use it, as a bludgeon on Clark's emotions. At every turn they write Lois in a way that disappoints and upsets the protagonist, rarely providing any point of view from her, which generally serves to make people not only not understand her perspective but to find her largely unsympathetic. I mean, only in this interview did Lobdell tell us that we'd get to discover how Lois and Jonathan met. They've been together for over a year. Lois' relationship with Jonathan has NOTHING to do with her or her character. Jonathan only exists to bother Clark. That is why it was problematic, and not that the relationship actually exists. It's cheap. It's the idea versus the execution. DC's ideas are not inherently loathsome. It is the way they execute them both in the writing and in the promotion that is.

    Oh, and the Lois and Clois fandom was never upset about Clark not liking Lois, or "worshipping [at her] shrine" as you so ridiculously put it. It's been made very clear in The New 52 -- including the recent SUPERMAN #13 -- that Clark does, in fact, adore Lois. He just can't have her.
    You keep harping about the passt. That alone says to me where you at. And yes based on every thing I have read here since the reboot i woulld say you are all upset he is not worshipping at her shrine. Seeing she is the bestest and all.

  12. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by abhilegend View Post
    So do I. I'm not stopping you from something, just reminding you that this is internet. You aren't going to escape accusing other people because this is your opinion. If you're going to criticise people of being SHIPPERZZ just because you and your fellow SM/WW shippers are too sensitive, I'm going to criticise you of being a hypocrite. Just as that.
    Look whose talking. Sacred Knight has been one of the most balanced posters here, you on the other hand seem to spend your time bitching at the sm/ww shippers, and their fans and writers. Oh and didn't you use to post and say how stupid they are and that DC would never put sm and ww together? Who is the expert now on comics,I wonder? Comics change deal with it. Even if they break sm and ww up, there will always be people who will like them as their will be people who like him and Lois and nothing will change that. DC know this. It is stupid not to try to capitalize on something that would sell. It isn't rocket science to cater for readers...and since you all offended by the reboot haven't been buying... and Lobdell is such a bad writer... it won't affect you much.

  13. #103
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    Im quite excited with the direction Lobdells taking with Clarks career.For too long Clarks journalistic career has been too boring-like he was confined by the daily planet-Clarks Career as a journalist was most interesting in the early pages of Superman Birthright-when he was a globe trotting reporter exposing hidden corruptions around the world.I have long wanted this to be the permanent status quo of Clarks job and it looks like Lobdell is moving closer to it.The upcoming suicide squad storyline sounds downright awesome.

    BUT I do have issues.First of all I dont like the fact Lobdell is taking measures to downplay the 2 most important members Superman supporing casts.Lois and Jimmy.Clark leaving the Dailyplanet,means a considerable less interraction with Lois which means lois role in the story is downsized.The same goes for Jimmy especially when you count in the fact he is no longer potrayed as Clarks bestie but a mooch,whos gonna be out of Clarks flat very soon.

    I like that Lobdell is concious of not letting things revert to the old staus quo but hes going a bit too radical.
    Not happy with the bad lois characterisations,epecially the fact that she did not leave with clark-same with Jimmy.How cool wld it be to see Jimmy,Lois,and Clark on the road as rogue reporters standing up for whats its right.Instead we got a mooch Jimmy and a louis thats part of the problem.

    Anyways looking forward to Diggles run on Action comics,his interviews give away the fact hes a lois fan.So we are good there
    Last edited by Zionite1; 11-07-2012 at 04:53 AM.

  14. #104
    Man of tomorrow abhilegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kylesgirl View Post
    Look whose talking. Sacred Knight has been one of the most balanced posters here, you on the other hand seem to spend your time bitching at the sm/ww shippers, and their fans and writers. Oh and didn't you use to post and say how stupid they are and that DC would never put sm and ww together? Who is the expert now on comics,I wonder? Comics change deal with it. Even if they break sm and ww up, there will always be people who will like them as their will be people who like him and Lois and nothing will change that. DC know this. It is stupid not to try to capitalize on something that would sell. It isn't rocket science to cater for readers...and since you all offended by the reboot haven't been buying... and Lobdell is such a bad writer... it won't affect you much.
    Stop talking about the things you don't know anything about. Sacred knight has bitched about SM/LL more times than I can count. As for rest of your post, I would talk to you when they break this couple up and paired diana to a random guy just like they did post-crisis. This "romance" hasn't even started properly yet and its still past its honeymoon stage. I would enjoy it while it lasts if I'd were you.
    Superman:"I'm a newspaperman; I'll take a vacation when I die."

  15. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zionite1 View Post
    Not happy with the bad lois characterisations,epecially the fact that she did not leave with clark-same with Jimmy.How cool wld it be to see Jimmy,Lois,and Clark on the road as rogue reporters standing up for whats its right.
    Lois and Jimmy basically just had cameos in this issue- neither of them were even there at the time when Clark gave his speech to Edge or when he left.

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