Post Civil War

[jackolover]

This period attempts to show what it is like in America without Steve Rogers. The story starts with Captain America # 26, where Skrulls, (Valentina, and Dum Dum Dugan), appear, and after the wake of pro-registration, and the anti-registration factions, it sinks in that it is now a world without Steve Rogers. In this world, Winter Soldier concludes who it is who benefits if Rogers dies, and the answer is Tony Stark. Sharon Carter observes that Steve's body has degraded, and it is probably because the power dampened around his neck weakened his system before he died. The Red Skull, as General Lukin (I was going to say Putin), were going to a meeting with the Secretary of the Treasury. Now that Captain America was not in the world, the Red Skull could move with impunity in circles around Washington DC. Already it was a time where without Steve Rogers, the world began to turn in another direction. WS decided to play the blame game, and the New Avengers just realized that the assassination of Captain America was an inside job. A lot of the loose threads left over from New Avengers # 1, now were free to roam at will, because without Captain America, (which Tony Stark had accomplished), it freed up a tension the world had because Cap was around. It was surprising how much the MU depended on Cap being there. While Cap was in the world, Tony Starks plans for the Initiative could never run smoothly. Because even alive in custody, Caps influence would have made Stark look over his shoulder to make sure Cap couldn't complain about it. With Cap dead, Stark didn't have to answer to Steve Rogers for anything he decides.

Sharon Carter and the Falcon are the first two people to acknowledge that there was something wrong, later to be joined with James Barnes own apprehension and response. These are the 3 people that are so close to Steve Rogers, that they feel the loss more than anybody else because Steve was present all the time in their lives.

[jackolover]

Cap was like the glue that held the MU together. Kill him, and all that glue drains away. Sharon Carter told Maria Hill not to confront Steve Rogers directly, because it would just lead to what happened. Hill never believed Sharon and then the world tried to challenge Captain America. Bendis had Cap remind Hank Pym about how more violent Cap becomes in a real War, by demonstrating it with a cut to the nose when Pym was Giantman, much like Winter Soldier is much more lethal and violent rather than Bucky/Captain America, who was holding back.

What happened in Civil War was that the political influence of Steve Rogers' imposing himself on the world was challenged. The government couldn't just walk into Steve Rogers world and expect him to just roll over, so they had a war, and Steve lost. But there was a political price to pay for that. For too long the world depended on there being a Steve Rogers there to lead them through trouble, and once Rogers was removed, there became a succession of replacements that tried to do what Rogers does easily,but all of them failing. You just wonder what it was that Simon and Kirby created in the 1940,s that this Captain America held the MU together from the Silver Age to NOW? Because without Steve Rogers, Iron Man lamented how much harder the work becomes. But what you do realize that Captain America losing the CW has a price. You don't have the indepence that Cap gives to the world, and instead you get formalization of the super hero community into a state that is subject to easy infiltration, much like the Silver Age before Avengers # 4 in 1964, was a faulty MU. The Avengers didn't exist until Captain America, the Sentinel of Liberty, was inserted as the heart of the super hero community. Take that heart away and the whole thing falls apart.

[Omega Alpha]

I'm not sure that Secret Invasion or WWH would play much differently with Steve alive- after all, if one calls him a skrull, is enough to make anyone paranoid.

Dark Reign is what would be different if he was on it from the start, I believe. I'm not sure Osborn would be able to get as much power, much less call himself the Iron Patriot.

[jackolover]

I'm not sure that Secret Invasion or WWH would play much differently with Steve alive- after all, if one calls him a skrull, is enough to make anyone paranoid.

Dark Reign is what would be different if he was on it from the start, I believe. I'm not sure Osborn would be able to get as much power, much less call himself the Iron Patriot.

My thoughts would be if Steve Rogers had won the Civil War, Stark would not have monopolized the Military Defence of SHIELD and been easily compromised, by the Skrulls. It would have made an interesting story, because the Skrulls would have had to do battle of a couple of fronts instead of the clean sweep they had.

And certainly, Tony Stark falling on his sword made Osborns rise that much easier. With Cap around, Stark would have remained in play while Osborn would have had 2 heavy weights to deal with.

[jackolover]

It just struck me that everything that happened after Avengers Disassembled was because Thor was dead, because of Ragnarok. It led to the New Avengers, and, the Civil War went badly because Cap didn't have his Thunder God, because I would bet Thor would fall on Caps side.

Immediately after Civil War and Caps death, Iron Man confronted Thor about the formalities of relocating Asgard to a more appropriate place, away from US soil. And it is here that we learn what Thor thinks of Starks behavior during the interim period of Thor's absence. Certainly, Thor will not align himself with Stark, so any plans Stark had for the Defence of America wouldn't include Thor. So while it is a world without Captain America, it is also a world without Thor. The way the Post-CW world panned out was that it had to develope without both Cap and Thor. I'm sure the Secret Invasion would have been far more difficult for the Skrulls if they had to factor in the Thunder God as part of the Avengers, rather than isolate then in the wilds of Oklahoma, because Thor became the difference, eventually, in the Central Park battle, that could have seen the Wasp destroy all humanity. But it didn't save Tony Stark, because Thor did not wait around after the funeral for Jan to make any difference to keeping Stark alive.

I see the symbiotic relationship between Steve Rogers and Thor as the super human super soldier, and the protection of a benevolent God as the two most important factors that hold the world together in safety. Rogers for his inspirational presence, and the Thunder God as the force that protects when the most dangerous threats arrive. Remove them both and the world has no protection, both in the spiritual sense, and the power sense. Removing both Cap and Thor after Avengers Disassembled made it easy for the government to first degrade the New Avengers by hounding them with the CSA, in Thors absence, and then after CW with Thors absence still, to further corrode the protection of the world with no Benevolent God. I think that period led to the governments lopsided belligerence towards super heroes, purely because Thor was missing. Once Steve Rogers had lost his Thunder God, even Rogers could not be protected from the corroding abuse by the government machine.

It's almost as if Steve Rogers and Thor were not there as the civilizing influences on the humans, they turn ferrel. And once the ferrel humans have lost their grounding influence, they are open to corruption. The best thing you could say about Obama's MU administration, was that Obama recognized this positive influence of Rogers and Thor, that it became essential for the USA to pamper these two giants for the mutual benefit of the Country and the super heroes.

If I were to define the super human struggle surrounding the Civil War, I would say that it was the struggle that made humans aware of the strategic role of the super humans to the well being of society. All the petty criticism and abuse of the super heroes while Thor was absent, just reinforces the notion that without these two titans in Cap and Thor, the world spirals out of control.

It was in Thor #3 that the world was acquainted with the absence of Thor, when he came face to face with the worlds emissary, Stark. The abuse of ferrel humanity was met with the full force of his power, for daring to lose faith in their Thunder God. Thor was able to create an EMP ( usually produced by A-bombs), which fried Iron Mans armor.

[jackolover]

The New Avengers were a symbol of what Captain America's world was. Honor, and old school. Right through the period from Avengers Disassembled to the Heroic Age, the NA were that constant that kept Cap's world ticking, while chaos erupted all around them. No matter what inducements Tony Stark put before him, Luke Cage was not going to bow to the government on this one. His wife Jessica and Danny Rand would stick with Luke like glue. People like Spider-Man had seen first hand what the SHRA meant to him, and Doctor Strange had already rejected Reed Richards excuses for backing the SHRA. Ronan was Hawkeye and and he was a passenger, like Wolverine. Each of them had reasons why the change in the world didn't suit them, but mostly it was because they were the closest to Steve Rogers in the resistance, and Steve Rogers world was what was being torn apart. The NA lived like fugitives in a world that did not respect Steve Rogers ethics.


The NA were aware of a much bigger picture. They thought, SHIELD, Hydra, the Secret War and the Civil War were all connected and that the world was all topsy tervy. The NA were the first to see a Skrull and know that not only was the Earth infiltrated, but the Earth was invaded already. Hawkeye, when he returned to the NA as Ronin, remarked, that he was going to do whatever the hell it took to honor Captain Americas world view, but after that Skrull fell to the ground, that world view changed from being somewhat screwy, to being far greater an issue than just, the world is without Captain America. Now it became the world without man.

[jackolover]

Mighty Avengers #1 was based on the fact that if the MA don't go find the New Avengers and arrest them, SHIELD will. So, even though Tony Stark was the new head of SHIELD, he felt that confident that if nobody chased out the NA, SHIELD would overrule him and do it themselves. It seems Maria Hill, the second in command, was still a threat to Stark, if he wasn't seen as eliminating the remnants of the Avengers who wouldn't sign on. So already, Carol Danvers becomes aquanted with the realities of the Post-CW world without Cap and Thor. It's not like business as usual. The Super Heroes are on probation as long as they behave like they are obedient. So even here, Stark is still with the Super Heroes, not the government, because if he was completely government, Tony would not have let Carol in on the secret. That Tony knows if they screw up, that Stark and his team will be out. This is reinforced in Ms Marvel #15 where Maria Hill accuses Tony Stark of doing a Gen Petreus with Carol Danvers, about the deals with Lightening Storm, and SHIELD can dissolve those deals anytime.

And the other scary part is that the MA is a military operation, not a super hero team, and that's why Tony wanted a military person in charge, like Carol Danvers, not an Avenger, like the Wasp. It harks back to pre-CW where Carol was a part of the CSA with Hank Pym. It's almost like the CSA won and that's what the MA was now. It's why Simon William's, Wonder man, liked the MA, because it was formal and it was military. But it was still an Avengers team and it was flawed because the team contained another potential Scarlet Witch, in the Sentry, going off the rails, and Tony Stark says the Avengers can control him. They were wrong. Another reason why Simon Williams thinks the Avengers cause trouble. Carol refused to take the Sentry, but it was the height of conceit when Tony overruled Carol, and had Sentry retained anyway, because Tony thought he'd love to be there when Sentry succeeds to become another Thor. Stark was there when the Sentry tore Ares apart, instead.

By the time Avengers Initiative is instituted, Gyrich is Secretary of the Super Human Army and you get the impression Tony Stark is just part of the machinery that can be changed at any time. The super heroes didn't win the Civil War, the authorities beat the super heroes, and as such Gyrich thought he could hide the death of MVP, (although for the life of me I don 't know why, as nobody would care except his family), he remained belligerent even up to his court martial. As we see in the What If? CW story, Gyrich and Hill were the generals of the fight against super heroes. In AI, they were still the generals of that war.

[jackolover]

You know, I couldn't figure out the difference in how things changed even when I read DnA's Nova's return to Earth. Nova expected a welcoming committee on his return for R&R, because he thought the Annihilation news had to have been transmitted by now. He was wrong. When he arrived, nobody had even heard of the Annihilation, and instead Rich Rider was looked down upon as being a child killer for being associated with the Stamford New Warriors. Tony Stark was more intent on registering Richy than making his return convenient. From Richy's point of view, Starks appraisal of the vigilante period was a Dark Age, and Stark had moved on from the time when Richy was on Earth last. You could sense that it was a very nervous period, because even Justice was pushing the Initiative and registration, but with caution, because of the NW association. Richy walked into a world that had lost the openness and relaxed climate that the vigilante period was so known for. Everything was now so tense, with cops accusing, Villains now masquerading as heros, (the TBolts), and a veil of seriousness, that reminded one of the Communists.

The other awkward thing is who has authority between Cosmic or Earth? nova had that one moment where Cosmic authority was invoked against the TBolts who acted aggressively towards Richie. If the Post -CW world got that close to invoking the Nova Prime to attack, it really looks like Earth has changed into a form that is confusing to the Galactic Stability.

[jackolover]

One of the biggest political effects of WWH was when Tony Stark suspended the SHRA to let the New Avengers, (Renegades), help in the evacuation of the Island of Manhattan. Here was a directive to reign in the excesses of super human activity, and one of the super heroes suspended it, because another super hero (The Hulk), was rampaging over the planet. And the way Stark defeated Hulk was strange too. Hulk had used EMP bursts to disable all satellites around the planet, but after the Stone Ship was taken down by the Sentry, Stark got his Hulk sucking satellites up a running to absorb all the Worldbreakers power out of him, but which the Intelligencia redirected to make Rulk.

I have to say, that as WWH started, the authorities completely changed their approach to the super humans. The Hulks attack made the government see that super humans were cooperating, and so gave them more leeway than they would just after Civil War, when they were brutal. And after WWH, this trend continued with the soft approach to traitors like Herc and Amadeus. It was a very noticeable shift reminiscent of the period before Civil War. Unfortunitely, this was also the period of the attacks on Atlantis, Attalan and Latveria, so it was a noticeable shift away from the local focus on super heroes with the SHRA, but towards international use of super heroes. This culminated in the shock strike attack of the Skrulls when America least expected it.