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  1. #91
    Veteran Member El Sombrero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B. Kuwanger View Post
    Yeah...that's pretty much just going by the similar visuals there.

    I think Layman is worth a little more patience. I can't think of anyone who's done better with Batman in their very first two issues.
    Grant Morrison
    Scott Snyder
    Frank Miller
    Alan Moore
    Neil Gaiman

    That's off the top of my head in ten seconds, I'm sure I could think of more.

    I guess the similar visual style in Tec and TDK (as Kuwanger said above) is why they strike me so similarly. I think both books would benefit more if they had different artists. Not that Fabok or Finch are bad, they're just such standard Batman artists that it prevents the books from really feeling unique, in the same way that Quitely, Paquette, Jock, JH Williams, Nguyen, etc, helped their respective Bat-books feel unique.
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  2. #92
    Optic Blast, Optic Blast B. Kuwanger's Avatar
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    Grant Morrison had written the character for years before starting his actual run
    Snyder and Capullo don't work for me
    Frank Miller, I can give you. Though surely writing DD helped
    I don't think Moore or Gaiman ever had to write a regular Batman

  3. #93
    Veteran Member El Sombrero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B. Kuwanger View Post
    Grant Morrison had written the character for years before starting his actual run
    Snyder and Capullo don't work for me
    Frank Miller, I can give you. Though surely writing DD helped
    I don't think Moore or Gaiman ever had to write a regular Batman
    For Moore I meant his random issues with Batman guest appearances, that Clayface story, Killing Joke, whatever came first; the stuff included in that "DC Universe written by Alan Moore" trade.

    For Gaiman I meant those side stories included in the Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader trade, or WHTTCC itself.

    For Snyder I meant The Black Mirror, but either run would count.

    For Morrison I meant Gothic or Arkham Asylum.

    But w/e, this is all just my opinion.

    I'm not even saying this issue was bad, Layman is bad, or most of the stuff I complain about is bad. It's just unambitious and kind of pointless when there are so many other Batman stories or comic books out there. I wonder how many creators come up with killer ideas but are rejected by editorial, or if this is really what these creators want to do.
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  4. #94
    Critical Critic nosocialize100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B. Kuwanger View Post
    Yeah...that's pretty much just going by the similar visuals there.

    I think Layman is worth a little more patience. I can't think of anyone who's done better with Batman in their very first two issues.
    I agree. This was my book of the week due to things balancing out between pacing, dialogue and art. Great stuff and I'm actually finally excited to read a Batman book outside of Snyder in a long while.
    I write comic book reviews every Wednesday using pages from each book. Check it: Is It Good?: All the Best Books of the Day Reviewed!

  5. #95
    Optic Blast, Optic Blast B. Kuwanger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Sombrero View Post
    I'm not even saying this issue was bad, Layman is bad, or most of the stuff I complain about is bad. It's just unambitious and kind of pointless when there are so many other Batman stories or comic books out there. I wonder how many creators come up with killer ideas but are rejected by editorial, or if this is really what these creators want to do.
    I know where you're coming from. I just wouldn't imagine most writers with average or killer ideas would go from an independent comic to the biggest superhero in the world. I mean Batman has five ongoings right now and yeah, one of them is the finale of Grant Morison's many years of Bat work.

  6. #96
    The Older Waiter Brave Sir Robbin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Sombrero View Post
    Yep. I feel like this and The Dark Knight are pretty much the same thing right now. You can make the argument that this is more based on crime while TDK is more based on villain psychology, but neither title is doing super compelling stuff in those regards, and stylistically they are sooooo similar.
    Quote Originally Posted by Desaad View Post
    Haha, what? No. The Dark Knight is a deeply dark, sadistic look at psychosis.

    This is a fun crime book.

    They have almost nothing in common.
    For me personally, these to points both touch on why I have started to like The Dark Night and Detective Comics when I really don't like the main title at all. While I don't seeTDK and DC as completely similar, they both have somthing of the same feel in that they both feel like they give a lot more time to Bruce Wayne and his inner life, or maybe the part of it I find interesting. They also both are more directed ot smaller immediate stories. While the direction of each book is different as stated above by Desaad, they both share that more focused feel. For me, this approach actually has me buying to Batman titles when I didn't read any before.
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  7. #97
    All Caste Warrior JasonTodd428's Avatar
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    I'm actually finding myself enjoying the more "fringe" (using the term loosely here) Batman titles like Batwing, Talon and Red Hood far more than the then either Batman or 'Tec. I do think that 'Tec and Batman balance each other out somewhat though since they are such different books. I think we can agree that the Batman line would be dull if all the books were exactly the same and if the two biggest titles in the line were basically identical.
    Characters come and go, revamped and revisited. But as long as you enjoyed them, remember them and continue to appreciate them, then that character, your hero or heroine, will always exist.

  8. #98
    Veteran Member El Sombrero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brave Sir Robbin View Post
    For me personally, these to points both touch on why I have started to like The Dark Night and Detective Comics when I really don't like the main title at all. While I don't seeTDK and DC as completely similar, they both have somthing of the same feel in that they both feel like they give a lot more time to Bruce Wayne and his inner life, or maybe the part of it I find interesting.
    I don't know about that, I think that the main Batman title is very focused on Bruce's deepest fears and therefore has outstanding character work and insight.

    I think the main Batman title is freaking amazing. The only thing I dislike about it is that the stories try too hard to be "life-changing" and "mega events" and are a bit too violent or grimdark at times. But the atmosphere, style, characterization, plotlines, execution, etc of the Batman title is just superior, it completely outclasses the rest of the line IMO (once again, obvious exception to Inc which is just completely different).
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  9. #99
    Senior Member Statham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Sombrero View Post
    Grant Morrison
    Really? I know we're meant to worship the ground he walks on, but I don't particularly remember people really starting to enjoy his run until RIP kicked into high gear.

  10. #100
    Unreasonably Opinionated Conway's Avatar
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    The last issue was great. This one not as much fun, but with DC he has a defined character and editors. He can't get away with some of the stuff he does in CHEW. Although I think this title might be a little more fun if the art wasn't so serious always. The art is great but the jokes would work better if it didn't always look like a TV Drama.

  11. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by Desaad View Post
    Haha, what? No. The Dark Knight is a deeply dark, sadistic look at psychosis.

    This is a fun crime book.

    They have almost nothing in common.
    Bingo. Both have similiar visuals, but their tones and what they are aiming for are completely different.

  12. #102
    Unreasonably Opinionated Conway's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InformationGeek View Post
    Bingo. Both have similiar visuals, but their tones and what they are aiming for are completely different.
    Hence, my comment about the art being too serious... "Why so serious?"

  13. #103

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    I'm starting to think Layman's theme might be the absurdity of life in Gotham: The Penguin hiring assassins to get his mom's name on a children's hospital. Batman getting dragged into the middle of a fight between Ivy trying to save the planet; or at least the plants; and Penguin's legal but unethical business practices and next up both Batman (because it's the right thing to do) and Clayface (because he's under Ivy's spell) want to rescue Ivy, but naturally they're going to fight each other first.

    You've got Batman's crusade working in the background, because low-level mooks don't want to kill while committing crimes for fear of bringing Batman down on them (and that should be a very important victory for Bruce, even if he can't eliminate crime in Gotham he can make muggers think twice about pulling the trigger). Meanwhile Poison Ivy has her own crusade and can ask why Batman gets the last say on who gets to go outside of the law to do the right thing in Gotham.

    Layman's playing with how things work in Gotham City: High profile criminal agendas running afoul of each other as well as Batman, or using each other to forward their own agendas. Mooks trying to avoid Batman's attention and ending up on the receiving end of the wrath of criminals higher in the pecking order.

    If both "Batman" and "Detective Comics" were trying to tell big life, changing stories revolving around Bruce they'd trip over each other (or be in constant cross-over mode forcing everyone to buy both books to follow the story), but with Layman focusing on life in Gotham this book can be fun and interesting while co-existing with Snyder's latest major upset in Bruce's life.

  14. #104
    Elder Member Karl O'Neill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Statham View Post
    Really? I know we're meant to worship the ground he walks on, but I don't particularly remember people really starting to enjoy his run until RIP kicked into high gear.
    Sure, he nailed Batman in his JLA run, and all those other Batman stories he did before the start of his current run.
    "You can't trust them as poets either. The true poet is anonymous, as to his habits, but these boys have to look, act, and apparently smell like poets"
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  15. #105
    The Older Waiter Brave Sir Robbin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kizmet View Post
    I'm starting to think Layman's theme might be the absurdity of life in Gotham: The Penguin hiring assassins to get his mom's name on a children's hospital. Batman getting dragged into the middle of a fight between Ivy trying to save the planet; or at least the plants; and Penguin's legal but unethical business practices and next up both Batman (because it's the right thing to do) and Clayface (because he's under Ivy's spell) want to rescue Ivy, but naturally they're going to fight each other first.

    You've got Batman's crusade working in the background, because low-level mooks don't want to kill while committing crimes for fear of bringing Batman down on them (and that should be a very important victory for Bruce, even if he can't eliminate crime in Gotham he can make muggers think twice about pulling the trigger). Meanwhile Poison Ivy has her own crusade and can ask why Batman gets the last say on who gets to go outside of the law to do the right thing in Gotham.

    Layman's playing with how things work in Gotham City: High profile criminal agendas running afoul of each other as well as Batman, or using each other to forward their own agendas. Mooks trying to avoid Batman's attention and ending up on the receiving end of the wrath of criminals higher in the pecking order.

    If both "Batman" and "Detective Comics" were trying to tell big life, changing stories revolving around Bruce they'd trip over each other (or be in constant cross-over mode forcing everyone to buy both books to follow the story), but with Layman focusing on life in Gotham this book can be fun and interesting while co-existing with Snyder's latest major upset in Bruce's life.
    It's early but that makes a lot of sense to me. If Layman wants to make a different book and use his own style, which DC had to have in mind when they hired him, he needs to have a canvas like this to work on. I bet you are onto something.
    Last edited by Brave Sir Robbin; 11-08-2012 at 10:22 AM. Reason: didn't delete old quotes
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