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  1. #61
    Completely sauced... klinton's Avatar
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    Just understand that DC is a fractured universe, and all the worries melt away.

    Are certain elements gone now? Yes. Are there new, interesting ones in thier place? Perhaps.

    The 'New 52' is just another launching point. For DC. I survived the harrowing experience of Crisis (what do you MEAN, Selina and Bruce were never maried?!!). I moved on.

    Keep reading long enough and you'll go through this again, just as you've become accustomed to the new status quo.

    This is, after all, DC.
    Freedom is merely the ability to live without fear of persecution.

  2. #62
    The Fastest Post Alive! Buried Alien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by klinton View Post
    Just understand that DC is a fractured universe, and all the worries melt away.

    Are certain elements gone now? Yes. Are there new, interesting ones in thier place? Perhaps.

    The 'New 52' is just another launching point. For DC. I survived the harrowing experience of Crisis (what do you MEAN, Selina and Bruce were never maried?!!). I moved on.

    Keep reading long enough and you'll go through this again, just as you've become accustomed to the new status quo.

    This is, after all, DC.
    You seem to mistake me for some DC nooB who joined up in 2009 and is screaming about the New 52.

    If I were inclined to take it personally, I'd be insulted.

    But since I'm not, I'll just state for the record that I've been reading DC Comics since the early 1980s (no nooB here, though if you've been reading since the 1940s, I humbly tip my hat to your seniority) and this isn't a complaint topic. It's about how longtime DC readers feel about reading a DCU that, for the first time in a quarter century, isn't anchored to a continuity scheme that started in 1986. For you, personally, it clearly makes no difference, but it does to others and I'd like to read their thoughts on the matter.

    Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
    Last edited by Buried Alien; 11-04-2012 at 11:34 PM.
    faze (v.): to cause to be disturbed or disconcerted; to stun

    phase (n.):
    a stage in a process of change or development

    Get it right, people.

  3. #63
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    My thoughts on the matter are mostly unprintable.

  4. #64
    Completely sauced... klinton's Avatar
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    Hahaha! No, no. I'm not nearly so old as that. :p
    Freedom is merely the ability to live without fear of persecution.

  5. #65
    Hawkman No More! Hawk_fan's Avatar
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    I loved Crisis on Infinite Earths....an epic tale by Marv Wolfman and George Perez.
    So many characters all in one story....fantastic!

    Yes we lost some characters and others fell through the cracks, but I don't fault COIE entirely.
    DC had plenty of chances over the years to correct characters like Hawkman and Donna Troy, but seemed
    not to truly care IMO. I don't believe it was Wolfman's idea to erase Wonder Woman's timeline.
    Also, Hawkman (Katar Hol) was screwed up not by COIE, but by a decision DC chose several years after.

    I don't have a problem losing COIE's influence, but I do have a problem with this New 52 not staying true
    to the foundations of DC's stable of characters. Had DC just returned the original multiverse at the end of Infinite Crisis
    the DCU would be in better shape (less confusing) than it is now IMHO.

  6. #66
    Hey, Larry! Darrell D.'s Avatar
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    COIE was a clunky as hell story, punctuacted with some pretty art.
    The aftermath, with Byrne's Superman, Perez's WW, Baron's Flash, JLI/JLI/JLE were the more substantial works.
    COIE was just an event, nothing special. The 16 year old me thought it was nifty, but the 16 year old me hadn't developed a discerning taste at that time.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by klinton View Post
    Right. But again: you can still start reading your earliest pre-crisis issues, arrive at COIE, read it, continue reading past it through Flashpoint, and into the New 52.

    The entire narrative is all in tact. The story still has it's definitive place in the history or DC's fractured universe (of which the New 52 is just the most recent facet). COIE hasn't gone anywhere. I'm certain those issues are still in your long boxes where you left them.

    People's reactions to all of this is way over the top.
    yeah good post and agree

  8. #68
    Spider-man/DCU Moderator ShaggyB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Chang View Post
    yeah good post and agree
    The only issue is, you being able to read them in a logical order does not have anything to do with whether one is out of continuity or not. Flashpoint quite literally removes COIE, just because I own a copy and know the order to get to flashpoint doesnt mean its still in continuity.

  9. #69
    DC Comics Forum Moderator The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Chang View Post
    COIE didn't happen for THESE CHARACTERS we are reading now, but it STILL HAPPENED.

    It's still in the wider/complete continuity of DC.

    This is what pisses me off when people cry about how older events like COIE has been "erased" and "doesn't matter" now. They still matter a ton. Just not directly relevant for the new 52 characters.
    I have said this numerous times myself. Everything from the '30s to the present happened. That's why I hate the word "canon," because everything is canon. The only difference is some events and characters are part of the present continuity and some aren't.
    A bat! That's it! It's an omen.. I shall become a bat!

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    I have said this numerous times myself. Everything from the '30s to the present happened. That's why I hate the word "canon," because everything is canon. The only difference is some events and characters are part of the present continuity and some aren't.
    yeah i hear ya

    i guess instead of "wider/complete continuity" i really mean canon

  11. #71
    DC Comics Forum Moderator The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Chang View Post
    yeah i hear ya

    i guess instead of "wider/complete continuity" i really mean canon
    That's the way I would personally define it, Eric, but then you would confuse others here.

    I think the reason why designating only the present-day stories as canon annoys me, though, is that it infers the stories that came before them have no meaning anymore.
    A bat! That's it! It's an omen.. I shall become a bat!

  12. #72
    Spider-man/DCU Moderator ShaggyB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    That's the way I would personally define it, Eric, but then you would confuse others here.

    I think the reason why designating only the present-day stories as canon annoys me, though, is that it infers the stories that came before them have no meaning anymore.
    I suppose it comes down to the perspective you speak from. Batman new 52 version was not in COIE so it is meaningless in terms of that characters history.

    That being said. 10 Nights of the Beast was my fav batman story and it will always hold meaning to me. I read it again recently and still loved it... even if Regan as president dates it badly. From the view of the reader, all stories have the potential to have profound meaning. I think thats where the conflict comes from... the definition of perspective for the conversation.

  13. #73

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    I think CoIE is being set up as some straw dog in this topic. I don't really go along with the premise. CoIE was never that much of a touchstone for most DC comics and stories up until Infinite Crisis, when it had to be set up (readers had to be reminded of it) in order to knock it down. And I don't believe it's anymore not present now than it was before.

    CoIE was a pre-Crisis story. Even at the very end of the event, the universe that existed was not yet the fully formed post-Crisis DCU. While I might hate a lot of the aftermath of the Crisis, CoIE was quite good as a celebration of the DC Multiverse--and the 50th anniversary of DC (a lot better than how DC celebrated its 75th anniversary). It showed how much could be done with all those characters and all those continuities and all that history. Along with Who's Who (which came out at the same time), readers saw a lot of characters that had almost been forgotten, in addition to the iconic characters and even some characters new to DC. Which is the weird thing about these events that attempt to reset continuity--they often showcase all the good things about the status quo they are trying to upset.

    That a story is old should not be a reason for deleting it. Otherwise I don't see the purpose of DC and Marvel. Their strength is in their history and the many important (and some unimportant) stories that they've published over the years. If they are just going to delete all their foundational stories, and rewrite their history for people with short term memory--then they are rather worthless publishers in comparison to new companies with new creations and new stories. It's their back catalogues that make DC and Marvel so important.

    But if you all want to destroy your comic collections, I encourage you to do so (and I have no hidden agenda in urging a decrease in the supply of vintage comics).

  14. #74
    DC Comics Forum Moderator The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShaggyB View Post
    I suppose it comes down to the perspective you speak from. Batman new 52 version was not in COIE so it is meaningless in terms of that characters history.

    That being said. 10 Nights of the Beast was my fav batman story and it will always hold meaning to me. I read it again recently and still loved it... even if Regan as president dates it badly. From the view of the reader, all stories have the potential to have profound meaning. I think thats where the conflict comes from... the definition of perspective for the conversation.
    My favorite Batman story is still To Kill a Legend from Detective Comics #500, Shaggy. Probably will always be, too.
    A bat! That's it! It's an omen.. I shall become a bat!

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darrell D. View Post
    COIE was a clunky as hell story, punctuacted with some pretty art.
    The aftermath, with Byrne's Superman, Perez's WW, Baron's Flash, JLI/JLI/JLE were the more substantial works.
    COIE was just an event, nothing special. The 16 year old me thought it was nifty, but the 16 year old me hadn't developed a discerning taste at that time.
    The 16 year old me thought it was great, and the 43 year old me still does.

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