Losing COIE from continuity: how do you feel about this specific aspect of the New 52

[FIFTY-TWO (52)]

I think even if one is a fan of COIE itself, as I was, after twenty-five years of it being the framework around which the entire DCU was built, it's hard to say that it wasn't something of a creative albatross. By the 21st Century, it seemed ridiculous that writers had to limit themselves in mainstream DC continuity books to certain storylines because of a crossover published in 1985/1986.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

I agree. It served its purpose for a time, but it became irrelevant the minute DC started retconning its effects on their universe. Bottom line, the Crisis, while an historic part of comic book history and a real jewel in DC's literary crown, was pretty messy. Starting the universe anew without it was a good idea.

[FIFTY-TWO (52)]

I was reading Matt Fraction's wiki the other day, and apparently the reason he became a Marvel fan was because COIE came out around the time he got into comics, and he found it really weird and impenetrable.

Much like Fear Itself.

[tony ingram]

COIE was fantastic, for it's time. And what I mean by that is by today's standards the book is filled with MANY outdated characters that people wouldn't be familiar with.

I suspect our views on what's "outdated" differ. And being old doesn't stop a character being good-neither does the fact that younger readers might be unfamiliar with them. In 1986, Animal Man was considered an "old, outdated character" by many. Two years later he was a critical success.

Now, if only Marvel would do a restart/reboot as I find most of their books just too convoluted to follow anymore...

And if they did, I would no longer be able to follow the characters I've been following for most of my life, and would have to ditch Marvel as well as DC. Thanks a lot.

[tony ingram]

I personally enjoyed COIE, but didn't COIE pretty much take itself out continuity. Obviously, there were effects of COIE that stayed, such as the death of Barry Allen, but I was always under the impression that it essentially retconned itself until it was acknowledged in Infinite Crisis.

The events of COIE, including the loss of Earth Two and the death of Supergirl, were still being mentioned in books like Infinity Inc, LSH and Secret Origins for quite awhile after the Crisis was over.

[stk]

And if they did, I would no longer be able to follow the characters I've been following for most of my life, and would have to ditch Marvel as well as DC. Thanks a lot.

I think one of the reasons I have ditched Marvel in recent years is that they won't reboot and they desperately need it. I already can't follow the characters because they are written completely differently in nonsensical ways, tons of the characters' histories have been erased or contradicted, but Marvel won't come right out and say, "Okay, we're rebooting." Instead, it's all this half-ass stuff and we're supposed to ignore the fact nothing fits together anymore.

[tony ingram]

Since I'm not 40+ I don't really care. COIE happened so long ago, I'm kind of still surprised we still bring it up after the other Crises. I thought DC just wanted us to ignore it with all the retcons they've made following.

1986 is not that long ago if you are 40+, though.

[sunofdarkchild]

I think one of the reasons I have ditched Marvel in recent years is that they won't reboot and they desperately need it. I already can't follow the characters because they are written completely differently in nonsensical ways, tons of the characters' histories have been erased or contradicted, but Marvel won't come right out and say, "Okay, we're rebooting." Instead, it's all this half-ass stuff and we're supposed to ignore the fact nothing fits together anymore.

How do you feel about the Ultimate line? It's had 10 years to get very muddled, but the point was to present the characters with a clean slate unburdened by continuity while still keeping the old universe. I personally find Ultimate Spider-Man as a whole to be amazing from its inception until today, and I think they may actually keep Peter Parker dead since it isn't the main universe.

[SJNeal]

I still love the story, and liked having that benchmark to distinguish continuity, so it's kind of bittersweet. On the other hand, its existence hinders what they're (supposedly) trying to do with the DCnU... so I can see how it needs to go.

That said, deep down I'm still a grumpy old fan who's DCU will *always* be the "Post-COIE" one. May it R.I.P.

[Jabare]

1986 is not that long ago if you are 40+, though.

I was exaggerating, but I'm only in my 20's. I just don't really have a propensity for pre-90's comics excluding the New Teen Titans and Uncanny X-men.......... I guess Doom Patrol as well. hmmmm I guess I shouldn't say it was that long ago cause that makes me seem old, granted the event happened before I was born, but only by 4 years or so. When did COIE happen again 1985, 1986?

[stk]

How do you feel about the Ultimate line? It's had 10 years to get very muddled, but the point was to present the characters with a clean slate unburdened by continuity while still keeping the old universe. I personally find Ultimate Spider-Man as a whole to be amazing from its inception until today, and I think they may actually keep Peter Parker dead since it isn't the main universe.

The Ultimate line was great for exactly this reason.

I like the first few years of Ultimate Spidey better than anything they've done in 616 Spider-Man in 30 years. I liked the first 36 issues of Ultimate FF more than any FF I've bought off the stands ever. Ultimates? The first two volumes were better than any 616 Avengers comic I had bought in forever. Ultimate X-Men was different and promising.

But then, somewhere around the 3 year mark, a lot of the Ultimate Universe started falling apart. Some of the books were given to jobbers to write, and a lot of the stories were really uninspired and dull. Ultimate FF and X-Men suffered the most. FF, especially. You started to get the feeling the writer didn't get that these weren't the 616 characters. And the imagination was gone.

I lost interest in everything except Ultimate Spider-Man, which Bendis maintained well.

If they'd kept the high level of talent the line had begun with, I'm sure I'd still be reading the line today. As it is, I'm always surprised when I notice an Ultimate Marvel comic and realize they are still making them. I heard a story -- I don't know if it's true -- that Marvel started pulling the best talent off the Ultimate books because they were starting to eclipse the mainline books and somebody upstairs didn't want that. Especially after Jemas was gone.

Marvel still puts out some good books. But I look at everything now as being some kind of alternate universe tale. The feeling of one unbroken, continuous history that Marvel used to have is long gone.

[sunofdarkchild]

Yeah. The line hasn't kept up with its early success.

To me that has less to do with the particular talent than the state of the industry. Interconnected, convoluted messes are the norm from both major companies. And even a full reboot isn't going to give more than a couple of years respite from that sorry state. The bat-books history became more convoluted than ever with the Nu52 even before the first issues were out. DC as a whole may be less complicated than before, but in 3-5 years they'll be right back where they were this past decade. The same will happen to Marvel if they have a full reboot.

[tony ingram]

I was exaggerating, but I'm only in my 20's. I just don't really have a propensity for pre-90's comics excluding the New Teen Titans and Uncanny X-men.......... I guess Doom Patrol as well. hmmmm I guess I shouldn't say it was that long ago cause that makes me seem old, granted the event happened before I was born, but only by 4 years or so. When did COIE happen again 1985, 1986?

Different perspectives I suppose. Personally, I can think of very few post-1990s comics which engage me half as much as those I grew up with in the 70s and 80s. As for COIE, it began in April 1985 and ended in March 1986. It celebrated 50 years of DC Comics, which started in 1935.

[stk]

As for COIE, it began in April 1985 and ended in March 1986. It celebrated 50 years of DC Comics,

What a celebration. It celebrated 50 years of DC Comics history by wrecking that history and throwing dozens of good characters along with hundreds of great concepts on the trash heap. Happy birthday.

[tony ingram]

What a celebration. It celebrated 50 years of DC Comics history by wrecking that history and throwing dozens of good characters along with hundreds of great concepts on the trash heap. Happy birthday.

No. It celebrated it by streamlining the continuity and putting dozens of great characters on the same world. I loved the pre-COIE DCU, and was very sad to see characters like Kal-L, Robin and the Huntress of Earth Two and Kamandi effectively lost to us, but it paved the way for the JSA, the Freedom Fighters, Captain Marvel and others eventually becoming a bigger part of the main DCU and for series' like Starman, Sandman Mystery Theatre, Power of Shazam and the 90s JSA series, which would not otherwise have been likely to have happened.

[SteveGus]

Killing Supergirl was the great wrong that came out of COIE, even as crippling Barbara Gordon was the other great wrong that's been happily removed. I am glad to be rid of these things.

And what COIE says mostly is that restarting an entire fictional universe is a bad idea. Once that precedent is set, it becomes too tempting to do again.