Justice League Dark vs X-villains

[cbrer]

John Constantine
Madame Xanadu
Zatanna
Deadman
Shade, the changing man
Andrew Bennett
Enchantress
Dr. Mist
Black Orchid

vs

Mr. Sinister
Destiny and Layla Miller
Scarlet Witch (current)
Shadow King
Apocalypse
Selene
Spiral
Mastermind
Black Tom Cassidy

1. Team Battle
2. One-on-one match-ups
3. Both sides get 4 days of prep

[big_adventure]

John Constantine
Madame Xanadu
Zatanna
Deadman
Shade, the changing man
Andrew Bennett
Enchantress
Dr. Mist
Black Orchid

vs

Mr. Sinister
Destiny and Layla Miller
Scarlet Witch (current)
Shadow King
Apocalypse
Selene
Spiral
Mastermind
Black Tom Cassidy

1. Team Battle
2. One-on-one match-ups
3. Both sides get 4 days of prep

I would say that the side with (more) insane levels of telepathy and other mind-screwing takes this. X-baddies FTW by mind-whammy. They have 3 just-under-Xavier level TPs, plus a dude who mind-raped PHOENIX. And this isn't even getting into what Scarlet Witch ("no more DC") brings to the table. Am I missing something?

[cbrer]

Current Scarlet Witch is not anywhere near her Chaos Wave-warping-Marvel-omniverse HoM levels. She's had trouble facing just one of the Phoenix 5.

The only one who really rivals Charles in TP is Shadow King. Sinister is decent, but Charles did destroy him and his astral presence completely. Heck I wouldn't even give Sinister good odds against Emma.

Speaking of whom, Mastermind had a lot of help from Emma just even being able to enter the Phoenix's mind. And his powers work in a unique way in that the more powerful the opponent's mind is, the more realistic and believable his illusions become to them.

And I would say Team 1 has fairly decent TP resistance - Zatanna and Enchantress, not to mention Andrew Bennett having some telepathy of his own. Plus there's no telling what tricks Constantine has up his sleeve. I'm sure he's someone who most likely has TP defenses prepared...

[StupidMoniker]

And this isn't even getting into what Scarlet Witch ("no more DC") brings to the table. Am I missing something?

On erom levraM.

[big_adventure]

Current Scarlet Witch is not anywhere near her Chaos Wave-warping-Marvel-omniverse HoM levels. She's had trouble facing just one of the Phoenix 5.

Unless she's had an explicit powerdown (hint, she hasn't), that's called PIS. Doom recently borrowing her power called it the most powerful force he's had - he stated it was more powerful than the Beyonder.

The only one who really rivals Charles in TP is Shadow King. Sinister is decent, but Charles did destroy him and his astral presence completely. Heck I wouldn't even give Sinister good odds against Emma.

By feats, NONE of them rival Charles, which is why I flat-out stated "just-under-Xavier level." You can argue how far under they are, but don't try to strawman my post by implying that I claimed any of them actually were on Chuck's level.

Speaking of whom, Mastermind had a lot of help from Emma just even being able to enter the Phoenix's mind. And his powers work in a unique way in that the more powerful the opponent's mind is, the more realistic and believable his illusions become to them.

He did the same to the Sentry. He did it to Jean-Grey-as-Phoenix (who was, you know, "WAY-THE-HELL-PAST Xavier" mentally). He has also done it to every single member of the X-Men at some time or other, regardless of their mental defenses. He only ever lost via PIS.

And I would say Team 1 has fairly decent TP resistance - Zatanna and Enchantress, not to mention Andrew Bennett having some telepathy of his own. Plus there's no telling what tricks Constantine has up his sleeve. I'm sure he's someone who most likely has TP defenses prepared...

Please, show feats for ANY of them resisting even one half-a-Xavier-level telepath. And doing so while getting pounded on by team-wreckers like Wanda, Sinister, Poccy, and seeing none of it since none of them have feats for resisting Wyngarde.

[Pendaran]

By feats, NONE of them rival Charles, which is why I flat-out stated "just-under-Xavier level." You can argue how far under they are, but don't try to strawman my post by implying that I claimed any of them actually were on Chuck's level.

Just to isolate this, there's a difference between not rivalling a guy and saying a dude is just beneath another dude. That's not strawmanning, that's just words.

For the record of them only the Shadow King does come close, and even there, his entire rivalry with Xavier comes out of having lost to him. Mastermind has fucked with people and all, but it ultimately gets thrown off, and trucks as much in their deficiencies and to a certain degree in some cases, an underlying wanting to be fucked with, as much as anything.

He did the same to the Sentry.

Ehh, he did it to a rendered helpless Sentry and took advantage of that Robbo is fragile to his mind being worked a certain way besides.

[dupersuper]

Doom recently borrowing her power called it the most powerful force he's had - he stated it was more powerful than the Beyonder.

Ok, that's just silly.

[Beadle]

Ok, that's just silly.

Nah, these days the Beyonder's been retconned into Willie Lumpkin. Dude has absolutely no juice worth speaking of.

[Surtur]

Nah, these days the Beyonder's been retconned into Willie Lumpkin. Dude has absolutely no juice worth speaking of.

Shitty..he went from Donnie Osmond to that(though for a second I thought you typed Willie Lowman).

[big_adventure]

Just to isolate this, there's a difference between not rivalling a guy and saying a dude is just beneath another dude. That's not strawmanning, that's just words.

For the record of them only the Shadow King does come close, and even there, his entire rivalry with Xavier comes out of having lost to him.

I agree, for the most part. All of them lose to Chuck in the end, though he has to work for it -hard- against any of them. None of them have feats for redirecting a world's entire psi energy into an attack, or of getting Galactus' attention (with help), or any number of other high-end things (including beating everyone on this list at least once) so they are all under his level. All of them have succeeded in laying psi traps for Chuck that have worked, however, and all of them ALSO have feats for downing a whole group of somewhat-protected individuals with a thought. Which is pretty much what they are facing here.

Mastermind has fucked with people and all, but it ultimately gets thrown off, and trucks as much in their deficiencies and to a certain degree in some cases, an underlying wanting to be fucked with, as much as anything.

True enough - but he's also fully convinced whole teams of X-people who should know better and who have moderate-to-high mental resistance feats that things are vastly different from reality for SIGNIFICANT periods of time. More than long enough for the folks on this team to waste the other team.

Ehh, he did it to a rendered helpless Sentry and took advantage of that Robbo is fragile to his mind being worked a certain way besides.

True enough - but he DID do it, just like he did to Phoenix, when every other mind warper who tries to touch Bob's mind has... undesirable... results.

[big_adventure]

Ok, that's just silly.

To put in in context, he stated it was higher than anything he's absorbed - that list is long and mighty: Aron, Surfer, Galactus, Beyonder, Cosmic Cubes, etc.

[Surtur]

So has Scarlet Witch been consistently this universal level threat or something? Was it just in House of M? If not since then she must either not be an active super hero, suffers massive PIS, or just only fights cosmics.

[mailedbypostman1]

To put in in context, he stated it was higher than anything he's absorbed - that list is long and mighty: Aron, Surfer, Galactus, Beyonder, Cosmic Cubes, etc.

Never knew the Scarlet Witch was multiversal level.

On erom levraM.

So...tie?

[da noble savage]

isn't Andrew Bennett a reality warper at this point or did he get powered down recently.

[cbrer]

She had an external power-up however, when she did all that crazy HoM stuff. Something called the Life Force.

But apparently it was powerful enough to basically warp and then remake multiverses as she saw fit with a casual thought and a few words, the effects of which lasted up until this whole Avengers vs X-men fiasco went down.