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  1. #31
    Everyone's favorite host Guy Smiley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lestov16 View Post
    Let me give you an example of the precog's power. Let's suppose the precog was playing poker and wanted to deal himself a royal flush. He would instantly predict every possible outcome of the shuffle and determine the exact shuffle he will need to do to deal himself the winning hand.
    That's going beyong precognition and into either reality warping or superspeed and ehanced reflexes.

    How's he controlling the shuffle? You'd have to do some pretty physically tricky card manipulation to make them align while trying to look like a normal shuffle. I mean, it'd look pretty funny to the other players whether he was riffling through the cards slowly enough to control which card fell where, or just shuffling it over and over and over until he got it to where it would draw him the royal flush. It's not something precog alone -no matter how strong- will let you do in one go.

    Seriously. Try taking a deck of cards, and look at it face up so you can see what the cards are. Now try to shuffle them so that a royal flush is on top. (Or, if you prefer, so that each card needed is set at a specific interval from each other so that in a game with X players, when you deal out cards one per person five times that you end up with that hand.) Without slowing down as you let the card tips flip off your thumbs.

  2. #32
    A Thinking Man's Rhino Omegalith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Smiley View Post
    That's going beyong precognition and into either reality warping or superspeed and ehanced reflexes.

    How's he controlling the shuffle? You'd have to do some pretty physically tricky card manipulation to make them align while trying to look like a normal shuffle. I mean, it'd look pretty funny to the other players whether he was riffling through the cards slowly enough to control which card fell where, or just shuffling it over and over and over until he got it to where it would draw him the royal flush. It's not something precog alone -no matter how strong- will let you do in one go.

    Seriously. Try taking a deck of cards, and look at it face up so you can see what the cards are. Now try to shuffle them so that a royal flush is on top. (Or, if you prefer, so that each card needed is set at a specific interval from each other so that in a game with X players, when you deal out cards one per person five times that you end up with that hand.) Without slowing down as you let the card tips flip off your thumbs.
    Yeah, even if your brain is telling you "Cut at seventeenth card down, slide those cards between fortieth and forty-first, half deck precisely and intersperse cards in left and right hand at 3:1 ratio then..." You ain't doing that without looking suspicious as all hell.
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  3. #33
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    At very least you would need enhanced perception and hand to hand coordination.
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  4. #34
    I AM A FEDERAL AGENT! Lestov16's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Smiley View Post
    That's going beyong precognition and into either reality warping or superspeed and ehanced reflexes.

    How's he controlling the shuffle? You'd have to do some pretty physically tricky card manipulation to make them align while trying to look like a normal shuffle. I mean, it'd look pretty funny to the other players whether he was riffling through the cards slowly enough to control which card fell where, or just shuffling it over and over and over until he got it to where it would draw him the royal flush. It's not something precog alone -no matter how strong- will let you do in one go.

    Seriously. Try taking a deck of cards, and look at it face up so you can see what the cards are. Now try to shuffle them so that a royal flush is on top. (Or, if you prefer, so that each card needed is set at a specific interval from each other so that in a game with X players, when you deal out cards one per person five times that you end up with that hand.) Without slowing down as you let the card tips flip off your thumbs.


    It's like savescumming, but with every possible shuffle.

  5. #35
    Everyone's favorite host Guy Smiley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lestov16 View Post
    It's like savescumming, but with every possible shuffle.
    Is he literally doing every possibility and reloading, or is he a precog doing the mental equivalent?

    If it's the first, then that works. Maybe. Assuming it's possible to reconfigure the deck as needed via shuffling in a reasonable period of time, which it might not. (Simply put, it should literally be impossible for a single shuffle to result in every possible configuration of cards. The Royal Flush might require several shuffles in a row.)

    The latter simply requires a degree of precision too great for the ability as stated to handle. A precog might know that if he shuffles in just the right way, he'll get a royal flush, but it doesn't enable him to pull it off on the first try. And since it's only precognition, he doesn't get a second chance if he flubs it up, which he will because he's not a superhuman card shark.

    It's like you're claiming the guy could pick up a pistol and shoot a fruit fly from across the room - if the gun barrel is aimed a fraction of a millimeter off, he'll miss. He might see every possible stance he could take, but they'll all feel alike. If he's otherwise a normal human being, he won't be able to tell if he's in the successful pose or the one that's .003 mm off to the left until he misses the fruit fly.

    If the guy can 100% hit the fruit fly with his power, it's no longer precognition, it's probability altering.

  6. #36
    I AM A FEDERAL AGENT! Lestov16's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Smiley View Post
    Is he literally doing every possibility and reloading, or is he a precog doing the mental equivalent?

    If it's the first, then that works. Maybe. Assuming it's possible to reconfigure the deck as needed via shuffling in a reasonable period of time, which it might not. (Simply put, it should literally be impossible for a single shuffle to result in every possible configuration of cards. The Royal Flush might require several shuffles in a row.)

    The latter simply requires a degree of precision too great for the ability as stated to handle. A precog might know that if he shuffles in just the right way, he'll get a royal flush, but it doesn't enable him to pull it off on the first try. And since it's only precognition, he doesn't get a second chance if he flubs it up, which he will because he's not a superhuman card shark.

    It's like you're claiming the guy could pick up a pistol and shoot a fruit fly from across the room - if the gun barrel is aimed a fraction of a millimeter off, he'll miss. He might see every possible stance he could take, but they'll all feel alike. If he's otherwise a normal human being, he won't be able to tell if he's in the successful pose or the one that's .003 mm off to the left until he misses the fruit fly.

    If the guy can 100% hit the fruit fly with his power, it's no longer precognition, it's probability altering.

    I guess it's like probability altering. Let me give you some examples

    Let's say the precog wanted to hit the fruit fly. They would, with 100% accuracy. There are an infinite number of shots the precog could make, but he scans all of the possible outcomes of the situation and determines the exact course of action, no matter how minute, that will produce the desired outcome, no matter how improbable. As long as there is a possibility that he can hit the fly, no matter how low, he can determine the course of action which will bring it into fruition

    Another example is if the precog had a bag with 1 penny and 9,999 dimes. Let's say the precog was intent on pulling out the penny, a possible, yet highly improbable, occurrence. They would instantly predict all of the infinite possible outcomes of sticking one's hand into the bag and determine the exact hand movement needed to grab the penny

    Another example is let's say the precog wanted to land a coin on it's edge, a possible, but improbable event. As long as the desired outcome has a possibility of happening, no matter how improbable, the precog can determine the exact course of action to produce it. He would scan the situation in it's infinite possibilities and act on the outcome that produced the coin-on-edge

    Another example is if they wanted to break an encryption, which was a 4 digit code. The precog would predict the outcome of entering every 4-digit number between 0001 and 9999 (if he needs to go that far) and determine the one desirable outcome out of all possible others.

    Another example is if they wanted to play the lotto. The chances of getting the winning lotto number is, IIRC, 1 out of 30 million. The precog would scan all 30 million possible outcomes and determine the action that produces the one favorable outcome, the winning number

    How powerful does this precog have the potential to become?

  7. #37
    I AM A FEDERAL AGENT! Lestov16's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lestov16 View Post
    I guess it's like probability altering. Let me give you some examples

    Let's say the precog wanted to hit the fruit fly. They would, with 100% accuracy. There are an infinite number of shots the precog could make, but he scans all of the possible outcomes of the situation and determines the exact course of action, no matter how minute, that will produce the desired outcome, no matter how improbable. As long as there is a possibility that he can hit the fly, no matter how low, he can determine the course of action which will bring it into fruition

    Another example is if the precog had a bag with 1 penny and 9,999 dimes. Let's say the precog was intent on pulling out the penny, a possible, yet highly improbable, occurrence. They would instantly predict all of the infinite possible outcomes of sticking one's hand into the bag and determine the exact hand movement needed to grab the penny

    Another example is let's say the precog wanted to land a coin on it's edge, a possible, but improbable event. As long as the desired outcome has a possibility of happening, no matter how improbable, the precog can determine the exact course of action to produce it. He would scan the situation in it's infinite possibilities and act on the outcome that produced the coin-on-edge

    Another example is if they wanted to break an encryption, which was a 4 digit code. The precog would predict the outcome of entering every 4-digit number between 0001 and 9999 (if he needs to go that far) and determine the one desirable outcome out of all possible others.

    Another example is if they wanted to play the lotto. The chances of getting the winning lotto number is, IIRC, 1 out of 30 million. The precog would scan all 30 million possible outcomes and determine the action that produces the one favorable outcome, the winning number

    How powerful does this precog have the potential to become?
    As I asked earlier, would they have Felix Felicis levels of luck, as in all of their endeavors succeed?

  8. #38
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lestov16 View Post
    As I asked earlier, would they have Felix Felicis levels of luck, as in all of their endeavors succeed?
    Well it depends where you draw the line in pre-cog.

    With stuff like the lottery, the person choosing the winning numbers does nothing to effect how likely they are to come up. So that would be pre-cog.

    However, stuff like shooting the wings off a fruit fly require absurd feats of steadiness and skill, if your pre-cog doesn't have the skill to pull off the feat, all he'll see is almost every future permutation of himself failing and a couple succeeding by pure luck. He can do his best to imitate those that hit it by blind luck but that would just be luck, not skill or even his pre-cog.
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  9. #39
    I AM A FEDERAL AGENT! Lestov16's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    Well it depends where you draw the line in pre-cog.

    With stuff like the lottery, the person choosing the winning numbers does nothing to effect how likely they are to come up. So that would be pre-cog.

    However, stuff like shooting the wings off a fruit fly require absurd feats of steadiness and skill, if your pre-cog doesn't have the skill to pull off the feat, all he'll see is almost every future permutation of himself failing and a couple succeeding by pure luck. He can do his best to imitate those that hit it by blind luck but that would just be luck, not skill or even his pre-cog.
    If the feat is humanly possible, even by a little bit, the outcome would be achieved. The precog's body would instinctively assume the exact position needed to shoot the fruit fly, or pick the penny, etc.

  10. #40
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lestov16 View Post
    If the feat is humanly possible, even by a little bit, the outcome would be achieved. The precog's body would instinctively assume the exact position needed to shoot the fruit fly, or pick the penny, etc.
    But that's not just precognition then.

    That's precog and adaptive physicality or perfect body control. I mean, think like a real person. You think of doing something, you don't automatically do it perfectly. You don't hit the bullseye 100% of the time because your arm shakes or prevailing wind or you twitch unintentionally.

    This is beyond just precog.
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  11. #41
    I AM A FEDERAL AGENT! Lestov16's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    But that's not just precognition then.

    That's precog and adaptive physicality or perfect body control. I mean, think like a real person. You think of doing something, you don't automatically do it perfectly. You don't hit the bullseye 100% of the time because your arm shakes or prevailing wind or you twitch unintentionally.

    This is beyond just precog.
    So what would you name it then? The power to determine and follow the exact course of action which will produce the most favorable outcome (out of all possible outcomes), no matter how improbable. What are the potential applications of this power, and how can it be utilized in combat?

  12. #42
    Everyone's favorite host Guy Smiley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lestov16 View Post
    So what would you name it then? The power to determine and follow the exact course of action which will produce the most favorable outcome (out of all possible outcomes), no matter how improbable. What are the potential applications of this power, and how can it be utilized in combat?
    It's beyond precog. I'd call it Future Determination. Basically the ability to see multiple futures based on one's actions and choose which one happens. He's still not hitting Felix Felicis levels, because that affects things outside of the user's control, like if a branch suddenly breaks off a tree and hits the guy you're fighting. But it's pretty damn close.

    In combat, your guy effetively has 360-degree vision, never gets hit unless it's unavoidable (and depending on how far ahead his power plans, he may be nearly impossible to get into a situation where it is unavoidable) always makes perfect headshots or whatever would be most effective, doesn't need to aim, pulls off absurd trick shots, and so on. He basically never fails. If this power is always active, your guy can't be ambushed. Depending on how farsighted the power is, the guy may simply be unbeatable unless that would turn out to be to his advantage later.

    By farsighted, I mean how far ahead the power operates to determine a 'good' result. Three basic scopes exist, although it could have a time limit instead:
    1) Action-level scope: The guy gets the best result for whatever action he takes. He rolls sixes, hits bulls-eyes, etc. Consequences of successful actions are not factored. He might win his hand of cards, but now gets attacked by angry bikers who suspect him of cheating. Or he never misses a shot but can still be lured into an area where he's surrounded and can't dodge.
    2) Scenario-level scope: The guy gets the best results for a scenario. He wins $300 from the bikers, over a series of hands, some good and some not. He wins the combat because his enemies can't lure him into any traps.
    3) Lifetime-level scope: The guy gets the best results for his entire future. He gets his ass kicked by the bikers and meets a hot nurse at the hospital. They get married and it turns out that she's studying for her doctorate and has discovered the secret to immortality, which they apply to themselves. He never gets into the fight with the guys who would have tried to surround him. He takes a turn down a side street three months earlier, startles a cat, and the car with the evil gang leader swerves to avoid the cat and crashes, killing everyone inside. The world is saved.

    At action-level scope, the guy is nasty, but beatable. At scenario-level scope, the guy is going to be nearly impossible to deal with by our average evil organization. At lifetime-level scope the guy will only be stoppable by something he would never be able to prevent even if he spent his whole lifetime up to that point doing everything possible to stop it. Aliens blowing up the planet from orbit when he's twelve, for instance.

  13. #43
    I AM A FEDERAL AGENT! Lestov16's Avatar
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    Let's suppose they were scenario-level, and there were factors they didn't take into account, as in if the precog were ambushed by an adversary they were not anticipating. Would they be thrown off?

  14. #44
    Everyone's favorite host Guy Smiley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lestov16 View Post
    Let's suppose they were scenario-level, and there were factors they didn't take into account, as in if the precog were ambushed by an adversary they were not anticipating. Would they be thrown off?
    It depends entirely on whether the ability is consciously activated or 'always on'. If the guy has to activate the power to use it, he could be sniped or something and never see it coming. If he gets the chance to use it and they aren't in the process of shooting at him already, then he'll be able to start his mojo and do what needs to be done. If it's always on, he'll know about the ambush as soon as he thinks about going that way.

    Note that the guy isn't a bullet-timer, or even an aim dodger. If the enemy is a good enough shot and can adjust for his movements, and there's no cover nearby to dive behind, he's getting shot because he's not fast enough to get out of the way. If there's multiple such enemies, he can't even shoot them all first. It's a good example of a situation where none of the possibilities will result in success.

  15. #45
    Elder Member Shellhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    But that's not just precognition then.

    That's precog and adaptive physicality or perfect body control. I mean, think like a real person. You think of doing something, you don't automatically do it perfectly. You don't hit the bullseye 100% of the time because your arm shakes or prevailing wind or you twitch unintentionally.

    This is beyond just precog.
    I agree. Look at olympic-level archery competitions. Everybody in the competition is apparently an expert archer, and there is no need for precognition, because the target isn't moving. In theory, all they need to do is aim and shoot. But that's where the human factor comes in. People get tense in a competition and sometimes don't perform their best. They tense up and don't take the best possible shot against that motionless target. Sure, sometimes there is wind, and precog could help with that. But sometimes there is no wind and still a shot misses. Like many Olympic sports these days, there is a pharmaceutical method to cheating. Archers can take a beta-blocker to steady their hands and reduce anxiety. Precognition doesn't have anything to do with steady hands or anxiety.
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