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  1. #181

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    Quote Originally Posted by stephen wacker View Post
    Nothing in entertainment lasts forever. Chasing the "sustainable" in pop culture is a loser's game.

    SW
    That's a straw man argument. But what about chasing the "unsustainable" given when happened last time?

  2. #182

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    Quote Originally Posted by USERNAME TAKEN View Post
    I agree it's unsustainable but isn't that the exact reason why Marvel are running the incentives only for the initial launch? If it causes so much damage and beyond the second issues retailers see a problem then will simply stop ordering so much.
    THe incentives are so generous, that retailers are tempted to dive in. If the cover market crashes between FOC and shipping, they will be exposed to such a degree that it could cause real problems. And Marvel are pushing so many covers and variants and order tie ins that this is making it more likely to crash. This is not "chasing the sustainable", this is "chasing the unsustainable".

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichJohnston View Post
    THe incentives are so generous, that retailers are tempted to dive in. If the cover market crashes between FOC and shipping, they will be exposed to such a degree that it could cause real problems. And Marvel are pushing so many covers and variants and order tie ins that this is making it more likely to crash. This is not "chasing the sustainable", this is "chasing the unsustainable".
    I'm still not seeing it.

    A few incentives that might actually help retailers to make more money (if they can the sell the product) won't crash the market. The retailer will actually have to pay less for the variants and should be within reasonable levels for loss provisioning (every retailer has to make provisions for loss of stock due to excess orders in their accounts but what percentage of their income they make is up to each retailer) hence they can make a bigger profit in the short term. The whole idea here is to help Marvel get their books out to people that won't normally buy them as well as help the retailer make some extra money.

    Besides this, Marvel is basically catching up on the variant cover games as other publishers (DC employed them extensively, Image used it for Walking Dead 100 and IDW and Boom use it for almost all their titles) have employed them over the last 12 or so months and the market is yet to crash.

    Like I said, I think we will just agree to disagree. I'll simply take a wait and see approach and see how it pans out.
    Adults struggle desperately with fiction, demanding constantly that it conform to the rules of everyday life when the answer is obvious to the smallest child: because it's not real. - Grant Morrison

  4. #184

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    Man, the Walking Dead had so many, many variant covers...

    No, don't ever say Marvel has too many variant covers. All companies do it. Heck, for their size, Marvel probably does it less than most.

  5. #185
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    Eh, when the comics industry finally collapses, it'll be good riddance. Never has such a sloppy and misbegotten "art form" been placed on such a high pedestal by its fans and so consistently failed to deliver results in line with expectations. I'll still continue to read comics in the meantime, but I do find that they are at their most enjoyable when I just shut off my brain and set absolutely no standards whatsoever. The motto of the entire industry should really just be "don't think about it too hard," though if adopted I'm afraid that there will be endless battles over creator rights to that phrase.

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosebunse View Post
    Man, the Walking Dead had so many, many variant covers...

    No, don't ever say Marvel has too many variant covers. All companies do it. Heck, for their size, Marvel probably does it less than most.
    Exactly.

    DC cranked out 1:25, 1:50 and 1:200 variants on their top selling titles for months now.

    Marvel is just playing catch up.
    Adults struggle desperately with fiction, demanding constantly that it conform to the rules of everyday life when the answer is obvious to the smallest child: because it's not real. - Grant Morrison

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flashpoint View Post
    Exactly. I couldn't believe how big the drops on books like Defenders were with the 2nd issue. They literally plunged down the Diamond sales charts. By the time Defenders got cancelled, it was totally on life support barely scraping by.

    I was one of the early propenents for a massive Marvel relaunch. I was excited by the idea and really looking forward to Marvel's own version of the New 52. But this is terrible. It's all spread out over 4 months and there is absolutely NO buzz on Marvel Now at any of the shops in my neighborhood. They've got stacks of Uncanny Avengers unsold at my LCS.

    Contrast that with the response to Justice League which sold out immediately. Even the 2nd printing was sold out before it even hit shops and DC had to schedule a 3rd printing then (which also sold out before it even arrived).

    We will see how the Diamond charts look, but the anecdotal evidence Rich shared on BC is most definitely reflected by what I'm seeing at shops in my own neighborhood. The initial response is shockingly weak and as someone who was all for the idea inititally, I am very disappointed in the staggered rollout. It's just not appealing and so far it isn't working.
    Uncanny Avengers and even Red She-Hulk have sold out and gone to a second printings. Uncanny Avengers is the highest selling superhero comic of the year (the highest selling title goes to the Walking dead) and is a gigantic hit. Yes, Uncanny was helped by variants but selling out 300,000+ issues of it is a massive success. There's no way of spinning that around.

    http://graphicpolicy.com/2012/10/16/...back-to-press/

    Again, it's much too early to gauge success or failure of the initiative. The staggered roll out wont generate the retailers the hype or even cash in the short term that the new 52 did because that was all in one month. This isnt a zero sum game because the staggered roll out and the one month roll out can both be successful. Personally, i prefer it staggered because I can check out each and every title coming out. It also allows retailers a chance to find their order levels easily. With the new 52, I could only try some of them but because I have limited cash I basically had to ignore some.

    That being said, this is contingent on being interested in Marvel in the first place. For guys like you who has zero interest in Marvel (which isn't a bad thing as we all have different tastes) and flat out hate the titles coming out, the whole point of Marvel NOW is moot.
    Last edited by USERNAME TAKEN; 11-04-2012 at 09:09 PM.
    Adults struggle desperately with fiction, demanding constantly that it conform to the rules of everyday life when the answer is obvious to the smallest child: because it's not real. - Grant Morrison

  8. #188

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    My store had Uncanny Avengers at $2.99

    They had a lot of copies, but it did influence my decision to buy it.

  9. #189
    Sad Hawkguy in the snow CyberHubbs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOff View Post
    Eh, when the comics industry finally collapses, it'll be good riddance. Never has such a sloppy and misbegotten "art form" been placed on such a high pedestal by its fans and so consistently failed to deliver results in line with expectations. I'll still continue to read comics in the meantime, but I do find that they are at their most enjoyable when I just shut off my brain and set absolutely no standards whatsoever. The motto of the entire industry should really just be "don't think about it too hard," though if adopted I'm afraid that there will be endless battles over creator rights to that phrase.
    Not even sure what this post is about.
    I know Kevin Nichols through a guy that knows a gal. Small world!

    If nihilism didn't take some delight in destruction one might suspect nihilists were an unnaturally morbid sort.
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  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosebunse View Post
    My store had Uncanny Avengers at $2.99

    They had a lot of copies, but it did influence my decision to buy it.
    Wow, I guess you were in luck.

    I'm almost fully digital and got mine off comixology.
    Adults struggle desperately with fiction, demanding constantly that it conform to the rules of everyday life when the answer is obvious to the smallest child: because it's not real. - Grant Morrison

  11. #191
    Senior Member finfangfool's Avatar
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    If the measure of success is making more money, then I think it's likely to be a success. If the measure of success is excitement for the new titles, then I'd say it's already a success from talking to friends/fellow comic geeks and posting on this site. If the measure of success is sustained sales, then we're going to have to wait at least a year to find that out. I'm sure it'll be similar to DC, some titles will be strong, some will settle in above cancellation numbers, and others will fall by the wayside and probably be replaced with something else. I know by my own personal measure I'm going to be adding about 8-10 titles, and I'm only losing 2, so for me (by the time it's said and done and all titles have hit shelves and my pull box specifically) it'll be a huge success. Most excited for Marvel in general I've been since "Heroes Return".

    As far as the variant thing, that really is on retailers. If they're foolish enough to overorder regular copies to get that shiny 1:100 variant and end up losing money then you can't blame Marvel for that (well, you can but it'd be foolish). My comic guy doesn't up his orders to get a variant unless it's 1-3 books beyond what he'd planned on ordering, and if it's more and someone specifically asks for a variant he'll let them pay cost for the extra books he'd have to order (including the variant, as most of them cost the same as the regular books for the store) but that's it. When he overorders on something thinking it'll be a bigger seller than it ends up being, he puts them in dollar bins and eventually will sell them and make up some of his cost. And unless someone's asking for it he'll usually sell the 1:10 variants for cover price. That's just anecdotal, but he's been doing it for 20+ years so he's got it down as well as anyone I've met. I did (long ago) get my comics at a Comic/Sports card shop where the owners clearly didn't know what they were doing and did go variant chasing (though to be fair to them, it was the mid-'90s and many retailers were doing that) and he ended up closing before the '90s were over. It's the responsibility of the business owner to protect his/her bottom line, ordering more product than you can move is a (big) part of that.
    A Fool for the Foom

  12. #192
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    http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...ticle&id=42020

    DC is actually hitting the market with 52 (FIFTY TWO!!!!) VARIANTS FOR JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA #1.

    I think DC want this baby to sell a million or something.

    What was that again about Marvel clogging the market with variants?
    Last edited by USERNAME TAKEN; 11-05-2012 at 07:58 AM.
    Adults struggle desperately with fiction, demanding constantly that it conform to the rules of everyday life when the answer is obvious to the smallest child: because it's not real. - Grant Morrison

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by finfangfool View Post
    If the measure of success is making more money, then I think it's likely to be a success. If the measure of success is excitement for the new titles, then I'd say it's already a success from talking to friends/fellow comic geeks and posting on this site. If the measure of success is sustained sales, then we're going to have to wait at least a year to find that out. I'm sure it'll be similar to DC, some titles will be strong, some will settle in above cancellation numbers, and others will fall by the wayside and probably be replaced with something else. I know by my own personal measure I'm going to be adding about 8-10 titles, and I'm only losing 2, so for me (by the time it's said and done and all titles have hit shelves and my pull box specifically) it'll be a huge success. Most excited for Marvel in general I've been since "Heroes Return".

    As far as the variant thing, that really is on retailers. If they're foolish enough to overorder regular copies to get that shiny 1:100 variant and end up losing money then you can't blame Marvel for that (well, you can but it'd be foolish). My comic guy doesn't up his orders to get a variant unless it's 1-3 books beyond what he'd planned on ordering, and if it's more and someone specifically asks for a variant he'll let them pay cost for the extra books he'd have to order (including the variant, as most of them cost the same as the regular books for the store) but that's it. When he overorders on something thinking it'll be a bigger seller than it ends up being, he puts them in dollar bins and eventually will sell them and make up some of his cost. And unless someone's asking for it he'll usually sell the 1:10 variants for cover price. That's just anecdotal, but he's been doing it for 20+ years so he's got it down as well as anyone I've met. I did (long ago) get my comics at a Comic/Sports card shop where the owners clearly didn't know what they were doing and did go variant chasing (though to be fair to them, it was the mid-'90s and many retailers were doing that) and he ended up closing before the '90s were over. It's the responsibility of the business owner to protect his/her bottom line, ordering more product than you can move is a (big) part of that.
    Exactly.

    I don't even think that retailers will over-order books for a consistent period of time like they did in the 90s.
    Adults struggle desperately with fiction, demanding constantly that it conform to the rules of everyday life when the answer is obvious to the smallest child: because it's not real. - Grant Morrison

  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by USERNAME TAKEN View Post
    http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...ticle&id=42020

    DC is actually hitting the market with 52 (FIFTY TWO!!!!) VARIANTS FOR JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA #1.

    I think DC want this baby to sell a million or something.

    What was that again about Marvel clogging the market with variants?
    All 52 variants will cost the same and any retailer will be able to order whichever covers he wants, without 1:50, 1:100 etc. limitations. So not the same.

  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by new_onslaught View Post
    All 52 variants will cost the same and any retailer will be able to order whichever covers he wants, without 1:50, 1:100 etc. limitations. So not the same.
    True.

    But it will probably still have the same effect.

    While DC is not "incentivising" the covers – making them only available if retailers up their orders on "Justice League of America" #1 – the end result of the stunt will likely be the same: retailers ordering higher than they may otherwise in order to get a number of different covers in the hands of collectors.
    Adults struggle desperately with fiction, demanding constantly that it conform to the rules of everyday life when the answer is obvious to the smallest child: because it's not real. - Grant Morrison

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