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  1. #76
    FRENCH Frank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalen O. View Post
    Seriously. PC is not code for 'Things I Don't Like'. When Michael Clarke Duncan was cast as the Kingpin, a villain, it wasn't an effort to be PC, it was because they thought he was the best person to play the Kingpin. If they just wanted to make a character black to be PC, they would have cast a black Foggy Nelson
    .

    The original plan was for DD was for Cuba Gooding Jr to be DD. I don't know if it's the same producers that ended up doing the movie that got made with MCD as Kingpin but if it is, then there could be an argument that having proheminent African-American actors in the production was their intent from the get-go above "finding the best person possible" like you said.

    MCD as Kingpin, Idris Elba as Heimdall, Tyler Perry as Alex Cross, etc. Hollywood's shown its willing to consider black actors in traditionally white roles for awhile now. This is old news, so its a little late in the game to still be getting upset over it.
    Well people are reacting now because it's a pretty recent thing.
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  2. #77

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    Couple of points:

    I think Jamie Foxx is a bit OVER qualified to play Electro. Electro isn't that great of a villain and this Spider-Man reboot has been less then stellar. I'm willing to bet Jamie thinks this would be a fun role to play so he signed up for it. I can't fault him for that, if I had the chance to be a lead in the new Spider Man movie I'd sign up too. Hopefully the script is actually good enough to utilize his acting abilities, but I have my doubts....

    -As far as casting characters outside of their race, I would ask the following two questions:
    How iconic is this character?
    This isn't as subjective as you may think. Some characters are extremely iconic and known to the general public. You know who these characters are: Superman, Batman, Lex Luthor, Wonder Woman, Storm, Wolverine, Blade (because of the movie) etc... In these cases I think it's fair to say that the characters race is apart of their look. I understand that the vast majority of comic book characters were made during a time period where being something other then white male wasn't considered heroic. But when we are talking about figures who are well known by the general public to have a certain look, you should stick with it. Going back on topic, someone like Electro doesn't fit into this category. Most people don't know or care who he is so casting out of race isn't a big deal. To further illustrate my point here are some other examples that I'd also consider fair game: Cannonball, Spider-Woman, Ant-Man, Wasp, Mockingbird, Dr. Nemesis, and Domino

    -Is this characters race integral to his/her history?
    That's why the question, "how would you like it if random white guy is Black Panther?" is so ignorant to me. Black Panthers race is important because it's vital to his origin story. The same would go for Colossus, Storm, Magneto, Miles Morales, Niko Minoru, etc. Some characters may be known primarily for their race. Falcon and Luke Cage are both examples of this as they were early pioneers of black super heroes. On the flip side, a character like Thunderball or Coldcast casted outside of race isn't really a big deal. Neither race nor background play an integral part of who the character is.
    Last edited by Voss; 11-03-2012 at 01:45 AM.

  3. #78
    Elder Member Libaax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StoneGold View Post
    Well sure, if everything were even, which everything isn't. You point to the movie with no roles for white people in it.
    This is why i think Surtur and Frost mean well but they sound naive in this regard. Of course everything should be even between the races of characters,actors etc but the reality is far from that.

    Its reminds like there was a Queer,feminist literary class i was in and there was discussions, abstract theories about gender roles, how a gender/sex is really only social constructed and doesnt really exist and but thats far from the reality that women is now as always in unequal place compared to male gender power,position in human world in general.
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  4. #79
    BUY LOKI: AGENT OF ASGARD Kieran_Frost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DennyK View Post
    Awfully defensive aren't you? I didn't say whether or not that was good or bad, you made an assumption.
    LOL! Actually, that's a really good point. So are you saying you think Jim Carrey gives an impressive performance in Batman Forever?

    Quote Originally Posted by DennyK View Post
    Also, I will say that I'm not as impressed as you seem to be with the "Oscar Winning" status.
    I never get why people are so against the Oscars. The acting award nominations are ONLY voted for by the actors themselves; which basically means to get nominated means a vast number of the actors in the Oscar pull think you did a good job (and that's some of the finest actors in the world). I'm not saying EVERY person who wins an Oscar is therefore a good actor (Octavia Spencer should NOT have won last year); but Jack Nicholson, Meryl Streep, Jack Lemmon, Paul Scofield, Katherine Hepburn, Bette Davis, Geraldine Page... you cannot say these are bad actors (Oscar winners all)

    Quote Originally Posted by Legato View Post
    Remember the negativity when Heath Ledger, who was usually known for playing pretty boy roles in his movies, was casted to play Joker for The Dark Knight then everyone shut up when they saw his performance on the trailer? Or how people doubted Chris Evans when he was cast as Captain America but he managed to pull it off. If Jamie Foxx dedicates himself enough then he might make the role work for him
    Exactly. Or Daniel Craig as Bond (hated for being blonde), or Hugh Jackman (a tall non-Canadian playing Wolverine).

    Quote Originally Posted by Monty_Cristo View Post
    white people have had free cake for years. non-whites are only now getting to lick the frosting.
    LOL! I adore the metaphor; though disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Legato View Post
    I agree with Frost in that it should be a two way street.


    Quote Originally Posted by Surtur View Post
    I'd have to agree that if someone is going to complain about certain characters not being the correct race then it should be applied to all races. Not where some are fair game for change and some aren't since then who exactly gets to decide which races do or don't make the list?
    Quote Originally Posted by StoneGold View Post
    Well sure, if everything were even, which everything isn't. You point to the movie with no roles for white people in it.
    You don't combat the double-standards and hypocrisy of the past by doing EXACTLY the same thing in the present. Especially in America, there was 'one rule of white and one for blacks' during, before and after the Civil Rights movement.
    To tackle racism, you need EQUALITY; which means you give the role (any role, regardless of race or gender) to the best actor who applies. The moment you (figurative "you") start having "one rule for some, one rule for another" then you are actively not pursing equality.
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  5. #80
    BUY LOKI: AGENT OF ASGARD Kieran_Frost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalen O. View Post
    Double standards, by definition, require a different set of principles to be applied to the same, or similar groups. This isn't an example of a double standard, because there's nothing remotely similar about the range of roles available to black actors compared to the range of roles available to white actors.
    Exactly? Switching the race of white characters to someone else is allowed, but the reverse is not... how is that NOT a double standard???

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalen O. View Post
    In addition, a double standard implies that one group is unfairly harmed by the application of the double standard. And there is no argument in the world that can convince me that white actors are harmed by making traditionally white roles available to black actors, without making the MUCH smaller range of traditionally ethnic roles available to white actors in turn..
    I'm not saying I want a white Luke Cage (I don't), or a white T'Challa (though... that would actually be quite interesting... I get why it will NEVER happen), or a white Miles Morales (what would be the point?); but it's ridiculous to see the complaints against Sir Ben Kingsley, or any white actor (or in some cases "lighter skinned" actor) cast in a role, not originally that race... AND YET... when someone raises "but Heimdell isn't black" the assaults, the vehement defence of the decision... it's hypocrisy, and we shouldn't support it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Voss View Post
    Couple of points: I think Jamie Foxx is a bit OVER qualified to play Electro. Electro isn't that great of a villain and this Spider-Man reboot has been less then stellar. I'm willing to bet Jamie thinks this would be a fun role to play so he signed up for it. I can't fault him for that, if I had the chance to be a lead in the new Spider Man movie I'd sign up too. Hopefully the script is actually good enough to utilize his acting abilities, but I have my doubts....
    Overqualified to play Electro as nothing but a thug, sure. But THIS is exactly why he's a great casting, he'll make the character so much more than that; he's make Electro awesome, and everyone will see the villain in a new light.

    Quote Originally Posted by Voss View Post
    -As far as casting characters outside of their race, I would ask the following two questions:
    How iconic is this character?
    This isn't as subjective as you may think. Some characters are extremely iconic and known to the general public. You know who these characters are: Superman, Batman, Lex Luthor, Wonder Woman, Storm, Wolverine, Blade (because of the movie) etc... In these cases I think it's fair to say that the characters race is apart of their look. I understand that the vast majority of comic book characters were made during a time period where being something other then white male wasn't considered heroic. But when we are talking about figures who are well known by the general public to have a certain look, you should stick with it. Going back on topic, someone like Electro doesn't fit into this category. Most people don't know or care who he is so casting out of race isn't a big deal. To further illustrate my point here are some other examples that I'd also consider fair game: Cannonball, Spider-Woman, Ant-Man, Wasp, Mockingbird, Dr. Nemesis, and Domino
    See, I understand the logic BUT... we would have never had a character like Miles Morales with that logic. Spiderman is "too iconic"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voss View Post
    -Is this characters race integral to his/her history?
    That's why the question, "how would you like it if random white guy is Black Panther?" is so ignorant to me. Black Panthers race is important because it's vital to his origin story. The same would go for Colossus, Storm, Magneto, Miles Morales, Niko Minoru, etc. Some characters may be known primarily for their race. Falcon and Luke Cage are both examples of this as they were early pioneers of black super heroes. On the flip side, a character like Thunderball or Coldcast casted outside of race isn't really a big deal. Neither race nor background play an integral part of who the character is.
    I would actually say most of those characters, their race ISN'T integral. How is Nico's race important to her parents being supervillain sorcerers? Or Magneto's wife being killed by the Nazis? Even Storm's race isn't that important. She an orphan thief; if she was Indian, I don't see how her story would change.
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  6. #81

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    I hope you're right but I'm not expecting much. You can be the best actor in the world but if your director and script suck it doesn't matter. The best thing I can say about the Amazing Spider-Man is that it was watchable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    Exactly? Switching the race of white characters to someone else is allowed, but the reverse is not... how is that NOT a double standard???



    See, I understand the logic BUT... we would have never had a character like Miles Morales with that logic. Spiderman is "too iconic"
    Hmm, not understanding you here. Peter Parker and Miles Morales are two different people. Miles is also a character created by Bendis that exist in the Ultimate universe. I thought we were talking about casting characters out of race.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    I would actually say most of those characters, their race ISN'T integral. How is Nico's race important to her parents being supervillain sorcerers? Or Magneto's wife being killed by the Nazis? Even Storm's race isn't that important. She an orphan thief; if she was Indian, I don't see how her story would change.
    Interestingly enough, BKV is totally against casting any of the original Runaways outside of their race especially Nico and Alex. He made that group diverse for a reason, he purposefully used the ethnic name Minoru for that character and had her parents talk Japanese in various panels to emphasis the point. You may not agree with the logic, (and it's fine if you don't) but casting Nico outside of her race goes against the spirit of that character. Same goes for Storm, who was also carries a specific ethnic name, is the daughter of a Kenyan princess, lived in Egypt, and is the most iconic black character ever made in the history of comic books. It goes against the spirit of the character to make her Indian, it's that simple. Now if that Indian actress could pull off the look of someone who was black, more power to her. However I don't know of many that can, which is why I don't have a problem with Kingsley being Mandarin. In my opinion, Kingsly looks the part. Would it be nice for a Chinese actor to get the role instead? Sure, but I think Kingsley is a good actor and the look isn't to far off. I can deal with that.

    As for Magneto, we both might have different interpretation of that character. My understanding of his origin comes from the outstanding graphic novel Magneto: Testament. Even if that book wasn't canon, we are past that. The X-Men movies were a success and most of the general population from this generation has the understanding that this character comes from Poland during the WW2 era. Moreso, even if no one knew that it's still an extremely important story for that character. He has seen discrimination all of his life, it's something that has shaped his ideals, that has followed him into his adult life that made him who he is today. Neglecting all of that goes against the spirit of his character.
    Last edited by Voss; 11-03-2012 at 09:37 AM.

  7. #82
    Astral God Surtur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libaax View Post
    This is why i think Surtur and Frost mean well but they sound naive in this regard. Of course everything should be even between the races of characters,actors etc but the reality is far from that.
    I simply ask then: who then gets to pick and choose which races make the list? Is it just "anything non-white" basically?
    Last edited by Surtur; 11-03-2012 at 09:28 AM.
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    [QUOTE=Kieran_Frost;16102848]Exactly? Switching the race of white characters to someone else is allowed, but the reverse is not... how is that NOT a double standard???

    Because of the range of available roles for black males (females) roles in movies...it is totally unbalanced. If there was even a remote balance of white actors and people of color in movies you would have a plausible argument. The fact that you can name the number of black actors in moves on one hand goes against your notion of double standard when the initial standard is not close to being equal.
    Now, if you have a problem with the methodology to balance the inequality then that's fine, but to scream "PC" is what racists do when they feel their white male privilege being threatened. I mean do you think Jamie Foxx honestly wanted to make and be apart of "booty call"?

    To the point of original black characters being created; the reality is they do not have a following when they are introduced, because though many say color does not affect who they follow and immerse themselves (escape) into, it does...and living in America (or this planet) euro-centric ideals of beauty and superiority are still the building blocks of many societies and thus a subconscious notion even to non-whites. So to think that an overwhelming majority of whites are going to follow a strong black lead just isn't going to happen even in 2012. There are numerous examples...Mike Morales, Hunger Games, Heimdall, ....people want their escape into fiction to represent their euro-centric influences.

    Magneto's culture/religion is not important? Storm's background in context to the 70's and new Xmen is not important? Should I even argue the obvious reasons why those two characters' backgrounds do matter.
    Last edited by maskedavenger; 11-03-2012 at 09:32 AM.

  9. #84
    Astral God Surtur's Avatar
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    But about him wanting to make Booty Call..don't pretty much all actors at one point do stuff they don't want to do? Isn't that how you get ahead in the business to the point of getting roles you *do* want?

    Also isn't this boiling down to trying to make things equal by making them unequal? Maybe I'm misunderstanding.
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  10. #85
    Observer Vibranium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surtur View Post
    I simply ask then: who then gets to pick and choose which races make the list? Is it just "anything non-white" basically?
    depends on who is making the casting decisions....but (at the risk of being indelicate) white people have had the upper hand in Hollywood, both behind the camera and in front of it, since the start of the industry so making a white character another race is really not worth any sort of uproar

    but you know how white privelige is
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  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surtur View Post
    But about him wanting to make Booty Call..don't pretty much all actors at one point do stuff they don't want to do? Isn't that how you get ahead in the business to the point of getting roles you *do* want?

    Also isn't this boiling down to trying to make things equal by making them unequal? Maybe I'm misunderstanding.

    Well, yes. But in the case of the black actor even from the 1940s they have had to take roles which diminish them as a stereotype and joke because no other roles existed for a black cast majority. You could argue that that still exists today in Tv and in Movies...Pitches made to production companies will not take chances on an all black cast involving a drama, and if they do it is canceled immediately because people of color intelligent and strong doesn't interest American audiences ....even the black ones. We are more comfortable with people of color fitting stereotypes then being more than that...and then when they are we call them "token" or T-dog(which is a ridiculously silly name to begin with).

    Casting J Foxx as "Electro" is not tipping the scales of moviedom as to put half of the white actors out of work...that is just silly. Here is the umtimate point, visual entertainment media is very powerful.... It often forms your opinion about certain groups of people or re enforces your ignorance of them. Having people of different walks of life in entertainment media is crucial if we are going to claim and embrace a creative society that is about talent and story and less about making a dwindling majority feel good about how "white" they are.

    On a side note... I am fan of Jamie Foxx's acting ability at all. I liked Collateral but I think that was more of the dynamics of Tom cruise's character not J Foxx.

  12. #87
    Senior Member J. Robb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    To tackle racism, you need EQUALITY; which means you give the role (any role, regardless of race or gender) to the best actor who applies. The moment you (figurative "you") start having "one rule for some, one rule for another" then you are actively not pursing equality.
    You're assuming Jamie Foxx isn't the best choice.

    This argument only seems to come up when a minority gets a role. Even Michael Clarke Duncan, even though it was hard to imagine anyone else who could fill the Kingpin's giant suit.

  13. #88
    Observer Vibranium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. Robb View Post
    You're assuming Jamie Foxx isn't the best choice.

    This argument only seems to come up when a minority gets a role. Even Michael Clarke Duncan, even though it was hard to imagine anyone else who could fill the Kingpin's giant suit.
    and he looked damn good in that suit
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  14. #89
    for the lulz 7thangel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    Exactly? Switching the race of white characters to someone else is allowed, but the reverse is not... how is that NOT a double standard???
    who said it's 'allowed'? the same amount of complaints when a minor or supporting cast character is changed from white to non-white.


    I'm not saying I want a white Luke Cage (I don't), or a white T'Challa (though... that would actually be quite interesting... I get why it will NEVER happen), or a white Miles Morales (what would be the point?); but it's ridiculous to see the complaints against Sir Ben Kingsley, or any white actor (or in some cases "lighter skinned" actor) cast in a role, not originally that race... AND YET... when someone raises "but Heimdell isn't black" the assaults, the vehement defence of the decision... it's hypocrisy, and we shouldn't support it.
    where are these assaults? let's differentiate between those that had problems with the Heimdall casting and those outright bigots who made it known they were bigots i.e. st*rmfront, and who people were calling out.


    just as people have rationalized Depp (and a few other actors) by saying the have 1/16th Native American (or some other fraction), Foxx surely has some fraction of white in him

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    Elder Member Free-Man's Avatar
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    I'm not saying I want a white Luke Cage (I don't), or a white T'Challa (though... that would actually be quite interesting... I get why it will NEVER happen), or a white Miles Morales (what would be the point?); but it's ridiculous to see the complaints against Sir Ben Kingsley, or any white actor (or in some cases "lighter skinned" actor) cast in a role, not originally that race... AND YET... when someone raises "but Heimdell isn't black" the assaults, the vehement defence of the decision... it's hypocrisy, and we shouldn't support it.
    Not quite, no. The reason why the "Well would you be okay with a white guy playing Black Panther?!" argument falls flat is because there's still a massive gender and racial imbalance in Hollywood in general, but especially superhero movies. All of the Marvel heroes so far (with the exception of War Machine) have been white folk, so the implications behind race-switching a black superhero simply are not the same at all. There's already only a handfull of minority heroes who have a shot of appearing in the films period, so no, casting a black guy as Electro is not even remotely on the same level as deciding to make Black Panther or Luke Cage or Shang-Chi into white people.

    And again as J.Robb pointed out your argument assumes that Foxx wasn't chosen for his acting ability, but instead his race. I can't see how anyone would think making the villain black would be politically correct.
    Last edited by Free-Man; 11-03-2012 at 12:27 PM.

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