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  1. #16
    Elder Member vitruvian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seekquaze View Post
    How was Odin wrong?

    I would like to know that. Odin's and Amora claimed that Thor's reckless actions caused needless pain and suffering. How were they wrong? Amora proved her point. Thor's defenses were all general and failed to address the proescution's evidence. Thor gets off because he what...a great guy. So if this was anyone else they would be banished but Thor gets off because he is Thor? Am I understanding this right?

    I don't think I am quite following you. Are you saying the charges are BS thus having no truth to them or the other way around?
    I was very, very clear. There may have been a few times where Asgard was targeted because Thor was there, but by and large the charges are BS. Understand, I am assuming that all Thor and Tales of Asgard stories published from Journey into Mystery #83 on happened as published. If you review these stories, you will see far more instances where Asgard is attacked because of something Odin did, or because somebody wants the throne of Asgard, or just because it's there, than ones where somebody is motivated by getting one over on Thor. Quite often these are occasions where Thor is not even present in Asgard and needs to get called back from gallivanting around Midgard in order to save the day (which never made much sense for those stories in which Odin wasn't in the Odinsleep or something, what, he didn't want to get off his big duff and handle anything himself?).

    Therefore, Amora's and Odin's accusations in this issue that all trouble comes to Asgard because of Thor, or even that he significantly adds to the amount of trouble coming their way, are almost if not entirely without merit. Amora proved nothing, because she didn't present any evidence for this view, because there isn't any. The strongest bit she has is the thing about freeing the Mares because he didn't obey Odin's Keep Out sign on their tomb, and Hreidmar quite properly counters with the point that the imprisonment of the Mares was a crime of Odin's that Thor's actions ended up remedying. Don't even start with the thing about he shouldn't have brought Loki back, since without Loki Fear Itself doesn't end nearly so well for either Odin or Thor.

  2. #17
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    The old man needs to do his wandering wizard stent. Seriously, Odin would be more fun as the old wizard randomly popping up in places.
    Well I'm pretty sure Gandalf the Grey was originally based on Myth!Odin.

    Understand, I am assuming that all Thor and Tales of Asgard stories published from Journey into Mystery #83 on happened as published. If you review these stories, you will see far more instances where Asgard is attacked because of something Odin did, or because somebody wants the throne of Asgard, or just because it's there, than ones where somebody is motivated by getting one over on Thor.
    Fraction ignoring continuity again.

    The only defence is that this was meant to be a sum-up issue of his run, not all of the series.

    since without Loki Fear Itself doesn't end nearly so well for either Odin or Thor.
    Nobody knew that except for Loki's allies. All throughout JiM, nobody in Asgard liked Kid Loki or trusted him except for Thor, the All-Mothers, and Volstagg.

    The case was meant to be a sham so Odin knew perfectly well nothing would stick.

    But if my father had me tied to a magic wheel and put me under public trial just so he could get laid in peace I'm not sure I'd be very forgiving.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
    I was very, very clear. There may have been a few times where Asgard was targeted because Thor was there, but by and large the charges are BS. Understand, I am assuming that all Thor and Tales of Asgard stories published from Journey into Mystery #83 on happened as published. If you review these stories, you will see far more instances where Asgard is attacked because of something Odin did, or because somebody wants the throne of Asgard, or just because it's there, than ones where somebody is motivated by getting one over on Thor. Quite often these are occasions where Thor is not even present in Asgard and needs to get called back from gallivanting around Midgard in order to save the day (which never made much sense for those stories in which Odin wasn't in the Odinsleep or something, what, he didn't want to get off his big duff and handle anything himself?).

    Therefore, Amora's and Odin's accusations in this issue that all trouble comes to Asgard because of Thor, or even that he significantly adds to the amount of trouble coming their way, are almost if not entirely without merit. Amora proved nothing, because she didn't present any evidence for this view, because there isn't any. The strongest bit she has is the thing about freeing the Mares because he didn't obey Odin's Keep Out sign on their tomb, and Hreidmar quite properly counters with the point that the imprisonment of the Mares was a crime of Odin's that Thor's actions ended up remedying. Don't even start with the thing about he shouldn't have brought Loki back, since without Loki Fear Itself doesn't end nearly so well for either Odin or Thor.
    If your point was clear to me I would not have asked for clarification.

    For the most part you are right and trouble comes to Asgard regardless of Thor, but Odin's claim was that Thor's recklessness brought trouble and in that case Amora did prove her point for recent events which were what was the focus of the trial. Thor knew Asgard is often attacked. Broxton's residents have no superpowers, training, advanced tech, or experience dealing with things like that so placing the throne next to the city placed it in danger. Hreidmar's actions does not counter Thor's recklessness. All the previous threats Odin locked away he did so with good reason since they were very powerful and evil. The thing behind the door could just as easily been another Mangog. If Thor knew about the injustice done to the Mares things would be different, but as it is it is an incredibly reckless and dumb move on his part. And the same with Loki as well. Thor brought him back for the sole reason for five minutes he "missed him" regardless of how anyone else felt about it or all the damage Loki had done. Amora was right and Loki was a monster. The fact Loki was essential to stopping Fear Itself was not due to foresight on Thor's part but fortune. It does not change the recklesness of Thor's actions or the disrespect to everyone who died in SIEGE.
    Last edited by seekquaze; 11-02-2012 at 05:54 PM.

  4. #19
    Elder Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDonAbides View Post
    I've loved the entire run and this issue was a stellar send-off for a stellar run. Through the World-Eaters to The Galactus Seed to Fear Itself and beyond, Fractions Thor has been nothing less than great. A fantastic run by one of Marvel's best writers.

    I look forward to seeing where Thor goes from here.
    Fraction had some good ideas. He doesn't have the brutality that Gillen does, so his ideas come off a little glamorous, or smoothed over. There isn't that hard edge that Gillen gives to viking legend, but certainly, you can't fault the directions he took Asgard.
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  5. #20
    Elder Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
    I was very, very clear. There may have been a few times where Asgard was targeted because Thor was there, but by and large the charges are BS. Understand, I am assuming that all Thor and Tales of Asgard stories published from Journey into Mystery #83 on happened as published. If you review these stories, you will see far more instances where Asgard is attacked because of something Odin did, or because somebody wants the throne of Asgard, or just because it's there, than ones where somebody is motivated by getting one over on Thor. Quite often these are occasions where Thor is not even present in Asgard and needs to get called back from gallivanting around Midgard in order to save the day (which never made much sense for those stories in which Odin wasn't in the Odinsleep or something, what, he didn't want to get off his big duff and handle anything himself?).

    Therefore, Amora's and Odin's accusations in this issue that all trouble comes to Asgard because of Thor, or even that he significantly adds to the amount of trouble coming their way, are almost if not entirely without merit. Amora proved nothing, because she didn't present any evidence for this view, because there isn't any. The strongest bit she has is the thing about freeing the Mares because he didn't obey Odin's Keep Out sign on their tomb, and Hreidmar quite properly counters with the point that the imprisonment of the Mares was a crime of Odin's that Thor's actions ended up remedying. Don't even start with the thing about he shouldn't have brought Loki back, since without Loki Fear Itself doesn't end nearly so well for either Odin or Thor.
    I suppose what Odin contends (wrongly or rightly depending on your pov), is that Odin doesn't like what Thor did with Asgard when the current Ragnarok cycle started in the JMS's arc, and Odin can have this pov because Odin doesn't like anybody else's power messing with what Odin put in place. It unbalances all his work. Now, he doesn't necessarily come right out and say this, but you get the drift that no matter what his son Thor does, it's wrong.

    I always thought there had to be a reconciliation for Thors reign because it had such a dramatic effect on the 9 worlds. Odin was never going to like what Thor did, and once Odin returned it was a just a matter of time before Odin would bring Thor before him to answer for the way he did things. But Odin virtually got the finger from the rest of Asgard, and this is understandable because of Odins own subterfuge in his handling of the Serpent Event, for which Odin saw it fitting that Odin be exiled to oversee Cul, so Odin really had no supporters from the Aesir on this subject of Thor's track record, at least. But if I was a supporter of Odin, I would criticize Thor's reign, for setting Asgard out of Asgard space, near a vulnerable town, and then abandoning his reign to Baldar, (albeit as a a result of Loki's machinations, notwithstanding). Nevertheless, I can see Odins rage with Thor, and I think Odin's point was made. However, Odin seems to have caved in on the guilt of Thor, because of the guilt of Odin. I see that Odin's assuredness about his own reign and decisions have been shaken, and this leaves the door open to Thor Reign being viewed with more compassion than it would otherwise.

    If nothing else, Fraction has tied up the JMS, Gillen, and Fraction era by putting this era to trial, and what comes out is that Odin's way or the highway, is not the be all, to end all, anymore.

    I also question if Odin freed the Mares (I assume the Almothers?), because I can't remember reading that were were in fact jailed.
    Last edited by jackolover; 11-03-2012 at 05:59 PM.
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  6. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    I suppose what Odin contends (wrongly or rightly depending on your pov), is that Odin doesn't like what Thor did with Asgard when the current Ragnarok cycle started in the JMS's arc, and Odin can have this pov because Odin doesn't like anybody else's power messing with what Odin put in place. It unbalances all his work. Now, he doesn't necessarily come right out and say this, but you get the drift that no matter what his son Thor does, it's wrong.

    I always thought there had to be a reconciliation for Thors reign because it had such a dramatic effect on the 9 worlds. Odin was never going to like what Thor did, and once Odin returned it was a just a matter of time before Odin would bring Thor before him to answer for the way he did things. But Odin virtually got the finger from the rest of Asgard, and this is understandable because of Odins own subterfuge in his handling of the Serpent Event, for which Odin saw it fitting that Odin be exiled to oversee Cul, so Odin really had no supporters from the Aesir on this subject of Thor's track record, at least. But if I was a supporter of Odin, I would criticize Thor's reign, for setting Asgard out of Asgard space, near a vulnerable town, and then abandoning his reign to Baldar, (albeit as a a result of Loki's machinations, notwithstanding). Nevertheless, I can see Odins rage with Thor, and I think Odin's point was made. However, Odin seems to have caved in on the guilt of Thor, because of the guilt of Odin. I see that Odin's assuredness about his own reign and decisions have been shaken, and this leaves the door open to Thor Reign being viewed with more compassion than it would otherwise.

    If nothing else, Fraction has tied up the JMS, Gillen, and Fraction era by putting this era to trial, and what comes out is that Odin's way or the highway, is not the be all, to end all, anymore.

    I also question if Odin freed the Mares (I assume the Almothers?), because I can't remember reading that were were in fact jailed.
    Minor correction if this is still cannon. The Ragnarok cycle was ended when the Thor series ended before JMS

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    I suppose what Odin contends (wrongly or rightly depending on your pov), is that Odin doesn't like what Thor did with Asgard when the current Ragnarok cycle started in the JMS's arc, and Odin can have this pov because Odin doesn't like anybody else's power messing with what Odin put in place. It unbalances all his work. Now, he doesn't necessarily come right out and say this, but you get the drift that no matter what his son Thor does, it's wrong.
    I don't think it is that no matter what Thor does Thor is wrong. I think it is that aside from fighting everything Thor has done since his return has been wrong. Putting Asgard next to Broxton turned out to be a bad idea for both communities. Trusting Loki when he was in Sif's body was a bad idea. Resurrecting Loki and leaving him unsupervised was on Thor's part a bad idea. Loki himself was vindicated through his good deeds. It does not excuse Thor disregarding the wishes or feelings of not only the king of Asgard, but everyone else in Asgard by bringing the face of Asgardian evil back to life. Thor disappearing for periods of time to go on his own adventures and leaving Asgard either undefended, without guidance in a new world, or Loki unsupervised were all bad ideas.

    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    I always thought there had to be a reconciliation for Thors reign because it had such a dramatic effect on the 9 worlds. Odin was never going to like what Thor did, and once Odin returned it was a just a matter of time before Odin would bring Thor before him to answer for the way he did things. But Odin virtually got the finger from the rest of Asgard, and this is understandable because of Odins own subterfuge in his handling of the Serpent Event, for which Odin saw it fitting that Odin be exiled to oversee Cul, so Odin really had no supporters from the Aesir on this subject of Thor's track record, at least. But if I was a supporter of Odin, I would criticize Thor's reign, for setting Asgard out of Asgard space, near a vulnerable town, and then abandoning his reign to Baldar, (albeit as a a result of Loki's machinations, notwithstanding). Nevertheless, I can see Odins rage with Thor, and I think Odin's point was made. However, Odin seems to have caved in on the guilt of Thor, because of the guilt of Odin. I see that Odin's assuredness about his own reign and decisions have been shaken, and this leaves the door open to Thor Reign being viewed with more compassion than it would otherwise.
    I agree with you Odin was never going to like what Thor did. That is one reason Thor originally did not want to bring him back and Odin chose to stay dead. It was Thor's time to lead. Odin's time had past. Odin is too stuck in his ways to ever consider an idea like Parliament of Worlds. On the other hand, given how monumentally Thor screwed up as king and Thor choosing to bring Odin back Thor lost any right to complain about Odin taking over or going back to the old ways. Thor told Odin in Fear Itself that this was not the Asgard of old where Odin bosses everyone around. But it was exactly like that thanks to Thor. Fraction's Thor for whatever reason often could not see things from other points of view or beyond himself at all.

    I disagree with Asgard giving Odin the finger because of his actions in Fear Itself. For the most part Odin is still Odin. He is the only good king they remember for as long as any of them can remember. He was the one who always had the plan to save the day until Fraction.

    I think there are two primary reasons Thor got off. The first is cultural reasons.. For Asgardians, war is so much a part of life that a peaceful farmer can expect attack. It is what they live for. So a few wars coming to Broxton is not that big of a deal because the people of Broxton get to truly live. That and with war being so much a part of life Asgardians cannot consider life without it and that extends to others as well. War comes why complain? Loki is a similar degree. Thor and Odin have always forgiven Loki and brought him back so what else is new? With the Mares everything turned out well so why complain about it?

    The other is because Thor is Thor. Thor is the hero everyone remembers who is always fights for what is right. He is the friend most of the remember. Sure, he sucked as a king. But he is not the king anymore he is there champion and as far as Asgard is concerned none of his mistakes were that big to them. Just like big name celebrities or rich people get special treatment Thor to a degree got special treatment because he is everybody's buddy. If this had been some small-name or no name Asgardian I would not be surprised if the treatment was different. Because remember, Balder stated that everything Amora said was true. Thor was reckless, but people still supported him because he was Thor.

    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    If nothing else, Fraction has tied up the JMS, Gillen, and Fraction era by putting this era to trial, and what comes out is that Odin's way or the highway, is not the be all, to end all, anymore.
    I wouldn't say that quite yet. It depends on Aaron's run whether or not the All-Mothers screw up or not. If Asgard keeps trying things different ways only for them to always blow up in their faces in the short-run and have to go running to Odin to save them I would say it has to be Odin's way.

    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    I also question if Odin freed the Mares (I assume the Almothers?), because I can't remember reading that were were in fact jailed.
    It was briefly stated Odin imprionsed the Mares because they invaded his dreams and considered them a threat. They nearly trapped all of Asgard in a dream once. Apparently, it was to try and communicate or a defensive measure. Thor in his stupidity freed them, but because they did not want to fight the All-Mothers allowed them to remain free.

    I do wonder??? If a Mangog-level threat had emerged from the cave and killed thousands would Thor have gotten off so easily?

    Quote Originally Posted by Runguy View Post
    Minor correction if this is still cannon. The Ragnarok cycle was ended when the Thor series ended before JMS
    Technically it was ended and I supposed officially still has ended, but several stories have alluded that it could easily come back or is still a possible future.

  8. #23
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    Technically it was ended and I supposed officially still has ended, but several stories have alluded that it could easily come back or is still a possible future.
    I got the impression that adult Loki's main motivation for his reincarnation was that he still believed himself to be trapped in the cycle because none of them had changed. Thor might have gotten rid of the Ones Who Sit Above but when they all reincarnated on Earth it was just a case of Same Shit, Different Day.

    As long as Loki despises Asgard, they'll always be in danger. So you have to a) change Loki, so he gives up his grudge and b) change Asgard, so they don't keep making more Lokis.

  9. #24
    Elder Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Runguy View Post
    Minor correction if this is still cannon. The Ragnarok cycle was ended when the Thor series ended before JMS
    Yes, it did. I don't know what else to call it in that case. The Post-Ragnarok Cycle era?
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  10. #25
    Elder Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfbird View Post
    I got the impression that adult Loki's main motivation for his reincarnation was that he still believed himself to be trapped in the cycle because none of them had changed. Thor might have gotten rid of the Ones Who Sit Above but when they all reincarnated on Earth it was just a case of Same Shit, Different Day.

    As long as Loki despises Asgard, they'll always be in danger. So you have to a) change Loki, so he gives up his grudge and b) change Asgard, so they don't keep making more Lokis.
    I don't understand that Asgard and the 9 worlds can be resurrected, as it did in JMS's run, and the Ones Who Sit Above, also are resurrected? Thor seemed to think severing the threads connected to these entities meant, the Ragnarok Cycle was history. I think there is a demarcation between the resurrection of the JMS era of the 9 worlds, and the OWSA. The OWSA, are above the Ragnarok cycles, because they created them, and can't be affected by them.
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  11. #26
    Elder Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seekquaze View Post
    I don't think it is that no matter what Thor does Thor is wrong. I think it is that aside from fighting everything Thor has done since his return has been wrong. Putting Asgard next to Broxton turned out to be a bad idea for both communities. Trusting Loki when he was in Sif's body was a bad idea. Resurrecting Loki and leaving him unsupervised was on Thor's part a bad idea. Loki himself was vindicated through his good deeds. It does not excuse Thor disregarding the wishes or feelings of not only the king of Asgard, but everyone else in Asgard by bringing the face of Asgardian evil back to life. Thor disappearing for periods of time to go on his own adventures and leaving Asgard either undefended, without guidance in a new world, or Loki unsupervised were all bad ideas.



    I agree with you Odin was never going to like what Thor did. That is one reason Thor originally did not want to bring him back and Odin chose to stay dead. It was Thor's time to lead. Odin's time had past. Odin is too stuck in his ways to ever consider an idea like Parliament of Worlds. On the other hand, given how monumentally Thor screwed up as king and Thor choosing to bring Odin back Thor lost any right to complain about Odin taking over or going back to the old ways. Thor told Odin in Fear Itself that this was not the Asgard of old where Odin bosses everyone around. But it was exactly like that thanks to Thor. Fraction's Thor for whatever reason often could not see things from other points of view or beyond himself at all.

    I disagree with Asgard giving Odin the finger because of his actions in Fear Itself. For the most part Odin is still Odin. He is the only good king they remember for as long as any of them can remember. He was the one who always had the plan to save the day until Fraction.

    I think there are two primary reasons Thor got off. The first is cultural reasons.. For Asgardians, war is so much a part of life that a peaceful farmer can expect attack. It is what they live for. So a few wars coming to Broxton is not that big of a deal because the people of Broxton get to truly live. That and with war being so much a part of life Asgardians cannot consider life without it and that extends to others as well. War comes why complain? Loki is a similar degree. Thor and Odin have always forgiven Loki and brought him back so what else is new? With the Mares everything turned out well so why complain about it?

    The other is because Thor is Thor. Thor is the hero everyone remembers who is always fights for what is right. He is the friend most of the remember. Sure, he sucked as a king. But he is not the king anymore he is there champion and as far as Asgard is concerned none of his mistakes were that big to them. Just like big name celebrities or rich people get special treatment Thor to a degree got special treatment because he is everybody's buddy. If this had been some small-name or no name Asgardian I would not be surprised if the treatment was different. Because remember, Balder stated that everything Amora said was true. Thor was reckless, but people still supported him because he was Thor.
    I think if Odin wasn't made to feel ostracized by the Aesir, Odin would have given a harsh sentence to Thor, because Odin would have had the upper hand. As it was Odin was no better than Thor in how badly it worked out, considering the Serpents return killed Thor in the service of eliminating Odin's problem. Do you see how Odin is now in debt to Thor for disposing of Cul? I think the Aesir have a perfect right to now look on Odin with scorn, because Odin made it so the return of the Serpent meant that Thor had to sacrifice himself, to defeat his uncle. Before the Serpent, sure, the Aesir were Odins children and they had to follow Odin into scouring the Earth. But after the Serpent, Odin's manipulations came to light, and they weren't as honorable as Odin is made out to be. Thus I can see the Aesir giving Odin the finger by voting Thor as innocent. Compared to Odin, Thor is innocent.

    Quote Originally Posted by seekquaze View Post
    It was briefly stated Odin imprionsed the Mares because they invaded his dreams and considered them a threat. They nearly trapped all of Asgard in a dream once. Apparently, it was to try and communicate or a defensive measure. Thor in his stupidity freed them, but because they did not want to fight the All-Mothers allowed them to remain free.
    Where was this revelation? I never read it in anything by JMS, Gillen or Fraction. Have I missed something?
    Last edited by jackolover; 11-03-2012 at 09:21 PM.
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  12. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    Fraction had some good ideas. He doesn't have the brutality that Gillen does, so his ideas come off a little glamorous, or smoothed over. There isn't that hard edge that Gillen gives to viking legend, but certainly, you can't fault the directions he took Asgard.
    Yeah, Gillen screws with continuity too, but he knows when to stop and all that. He makes it work.

    I just feel like Fraction wasn't big enough for Thor or the X-Men. He does so much better with smaller casts, smaller, more intimate concepts. It's why I have faith in him for FF.

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    I don't understand that Asgard and the 9 worlds can be resurrected, as it did in JMS's run, and the Ones Who Sit Above, also are resurrected? Thor seemed to think severing the threads connected to these entities meant, the Ragnarok Cycle was history. I think there is a demarcation between the resurrection of the JMS era of the 9 worlds, and the OWSA. The OWSA, are above the Ragnarok cycles, because they created them, and can't be affected by them.
    No I mean that the OWSA aren't essential to Ragnarok because there's nothing stopping Loki and/or Surtur or whoever from starting a new one. They all have the opportunity to make their own destiny but everyone keeps falling into bad habits and just doing what they did before.

    That's why I think Loki was so frustrated in the Loki issue of Siege. Asgard had the chance to change and grow but nobody seemed interested. Everybody just wanted to restore Asgard to it's glorious past instead of thinking about the future.

    The All-Mothers seemed like a force for change, and yet they either get blamed and arrested like in Everything Burns or Odin shows up and takes control. Kid Loki too, wanted change, but he was hated and mistrusted from the very beginning.

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    [double post, can't delete?]

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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfbird View Post
    No I mean that the OWSA aren't essential to Ragnarok because there's nothing stopping Loki and/or Surtur or whoever from starting a new one. They all have the opportunity to make their own destiny but everyone keeps falling into bad habits and just doing what they did before.

    That's why I think Loki was so frustrated in the Loki issue of Siege. Asgard had the chance to change and grow but nobody seemed interested. Everybody just wanted to restore Asgard to it's glorious past instead of thinking about the future.

    The All-Mothers seemed like a force for change, and yet they either get blamed and arrested like in Everything Burns or Odin shows up and takes control. Kid Loki too, wanted change, but he was hated and mistrusted from the very beginning.
    I'm pretty sure the Ragnarok Cycles were a fabrication of the OWSA, and that without these entities you can't have Ragnarok, so I don't think Loki and Surtur can instigate it anymore. I think that's why Loki is now sabotaging Surtur, in Fear Itself, and in Everything Burns. Loki has changed, because Loki is now the protector against any more chance of Ragnarok?
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