View Poll Results: What roles would you have given them?

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  • Bishop as baby killer and Cable as Daddy

    2 13.33%
  • Cable as Daddy and Bishop as baby killer

    5 33.33%
  • Other (Please Specify)

    8 53.33%
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  1. #61
    What is, is. antiochene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    Right so this argument seems to be summed up by the following: "The writers aren't capable of being creative and developing a character so it is better and easier if they just stick to the same tired formula." By this logic then we should make all the new mutants that spring up as a result of AvX Grey-Summers so the writers lack of creativity and talent is not exposed. Maybe I just expect more from a decent writer. I expect him/her to make me interested in a character on the merits of that character and that character alone.
    Or, it can be summed up as "Making Cable the father-figure allowed for the exploration of interesting narrative parallels with considerable emotional depth due to the two characters' shared burdens as would-be messiahs and Cable's loss of his own child and his subsequent struggle to take on a paternal role for another child while under great and continuous stress". I think how you interpret the writer's choices depends entirely on whether you like the story they wound up telling. You didn't, which is fair. I thought it was brilliant, which is also fair. There's no objective standard of "formulaic" versus "original" to appeal to here.

  2. #62
    Senior Member DurararaFTW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antiochene View Post
    Or, it can be summed up as "Making Cable the father-figure allowed for the exploration of interesting narrative parallels with considerable emotional depth due to the two characters' shared burdens as would-be messiahs and Cable's loss of his own child and his subsequent struggle to take on a paternal role for another child while under great and continuous stress". I think how you interpret the writer's choices depends entirely on whether you like the story they wound up telling. You didn't, which is fair. I thought it was brilliant, which is also fair. There's no objective standard of "formulaic" versus "original" to appeal to here.
    Making a character important and creating an emotional stake for the main characters by making said characrer a Summers IS a tired old formula. They did it with Havok, Corsair, Rachel, Cable, Strife, X-Man and Vulcan. Yes, going with Bishop would've ben a LOT more original at this point.

  3. #63
    What is, is. antiochene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DurararaFTW View Post
    Making a character important and creating an emotional stake for the main characters by making said characrer a Summers IS a tired old formula. They did it with Havok, Corsair, Rachel, Cable, Strife, X-Man and Vulcan. Yes, going with Bishop would've ben a LOT more original at this point.
    Except that Hope isn't actually a Summers (unless you buy Sinister's explanation of a non-genetic heritage). Either way, she doesn't start out as a member of the family, and really, she never had close ties with any of them BUT Cable. There's certainly no actual emotional connection with Scott, who's the only other Summers she actually interacts with in any significant way. This is the story of an adopted child, not a clone or a long-lost relative, which kind of breaks the formula right off the bat.
    Last edited by antiochene; 11-03-2012 at 01:43 PM.

  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    Right so this argument seems to be summed up by the following: "The writers aren't capable of being creative and developing a character so it is better and easier if they just stick to the same tired formula." By this logic then we should make all the new mutants that spring up as a result of AvX Grey-Summers so the writers lack of creativity and talent is not exposed. Maybe I just expect more from a decent writer. I expect him/her to make me interested in a character on the merits of that character and that character alone.


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  5. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by antiochene View Post
    Or, it can be summed up as "Making Cable the father-figure allowed for the exploration of interesting narrative parallels with considerable emotional depth due to the two characters' shared burdens as would-be messiahs and Cable's loss of his own child and his subsequent struggle to take on a paternal role for another child while under great and continuous stress". I think how you interpret the writer's choices depends entirely on whether you like the story they wound up telling. You didn't, which is fair. I thought it was brilliant, which is also fair. There's no objective standard of "formulaic" versus "original" to appeal to here.
    Well to that say Bishop has very good experience with playing a father figure to a young child that he specifically was tethered to on many levels Bishop lived a whole exsistence where he was raising a young kid named Michael that was caught up with him in a series where Fitzroy became the Chronomancer. In this series he was also responsible for guiding and training a young group of mutants to be leaders in forming a hero team. This story also reunited him with his sister and he had to deal with lost of her a second time and the anxiety of being responsible for losing a regular human child in a world thathe wasnt from. Man...i long for the real Bishop, and it just further pisses me off how marvel gutted this character that tons of potential just make him a sterotype angry black guy...and now crazy too.

  6. #66
    Senior Member 5cents's Avatar
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    Now that the threat of the force is gone has Bishop's mission change?

  7. #67
    Omega Mutant ZNOP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DurararaFTW View Post
    Making a character important and creating an emotional stake for the main characters by making said characrer a Summers IS a tired old formula. They did it with Havok, Corsair, Rachel, Cable, Strife, X-Man and Vulcan. Yes, going with Bishop would've ben a LOT more original at this point.
    Original or not -- at the time those choices panned out nicely. Infecting Hope with Bishop (Pun intended ) would only darken the already murky waters of the X-Saga.

    Quote Originally Posted by JaggedFel View Post
    Nah Marvel will always reach for the easiest option.
    Which is the cheapest quality/grade product at the highest profit gain.

    Quote Originally Posted by antiochene View Post
    Except that Hope isn't actually a Summers (unless you buy Sinister's explanation of a non-genetic heritage). Either way, she doesn't start out as a member of the family, and really, she never had close ties with any of them BUT Cable. There's certainly no actual emotional connection with Scott, who's the only other Summers she actually interacts with in any significant way. This is the story of an adopted child, not a clone or a long-lost relative, which kind of breaks the formula right off the bat.
    Non-genetic heritage? This is the first time I'm hearing for this. Please elaborate.

    It's still possible that Mr. Sinister found a compatible surrogate female among his "gaggle" of test subjects to implanted the combined Grey/Summer DNA in.
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  8. #68
    Veteran Member JaggedFel's Avatar
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    I doubt its Sinister or at least his project would not be that specific since he had no idea in advance where Hope was going to be born. Of course its possible he ran thousands of such experiments or tampered with a sperm donor clinic or some crap and just forgot
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  9. #69
    What is, is. antiochene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZNOP View Post
    Original or not -- at the time those choices panned out nicely. Infecting Hope with Bishop (Pun intended ) would only darken the already murky waters of the X-Saga.



    Which is the cheapest quality/grade product at the highest profit gain.



    Non-genetic heritage? This is the first time I'm hearing for this. Please elaborate.

    It's still possible that Mr. Sinister found a compatible surrogate female among his "gaggle" of test subjects to implanted the combined Grey/Summer DNA in.
    Darn it, now I'm completely blanking on what issue that was in. I think the last of Uncanny vol 1, just post-Schism? Sinister had a chart up, outlining the Summers family tree and including some really wacky speculation as to Hope somehow being a Summers after all due to a non-genetic inheritance.

  10. #70
    Omega Mutant ZNOP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JaggedFel View Post
    I doubt its Sinister or at least his project would not be that specific since he had no idea in advance where Hope was going to be born. Of course its possible he ran thousands of such experiments or tampered with a sperm donor clinic or some crap and just forgot
    Sinister has/had a base, and an orphanage in Alaska. Scott met and married Madelyne and they lived in Alaska. Scott and Jean got married and lived in Alaska. Then there's the little known fact that Hope was born in Alaska...

    It's highly likely that he'd know.
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  11. #71
    Hard-Headed Ingonyama's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZNOP View Post


    Sinister has/had a base, and an orphanage in Alaska. Scott met and married Madelyne and they lived in Alaska. Scott and Jean got married and lived in Alaska. Then there's the little known fact that Hope was born in Alaska...

    It's highly likely that he'd know.
    Sinister's orphanage was actually in Nebraska. It's where Scott was raised, and where Sinister grew Madelyne to adulthood before the Phoenix fragment found her and woke her up.
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  12. #72
    Veteran Member Juggernaut Punch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5cents View Post
    Now that the threat of the force is gone has Bishop's mission change?
    The force is never mentioned when it comes to Hope killing a million humans. Chances are, it has absolutely nothing to do with it and Hope just kills those people on her own. She's incredibly powerful and she's exerted control over mutants she created in the past so its not like it'd be hard.

  13. #73
    Member imperial90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    Right so this argument seems to be summed up by the following: "The writers aren't capable of being creative and developing a character so it is better and easier if they just stick to the same tired formula." By this logic then we should make all the new mutants that spring up as a result of AvX Grey-Summers so the writers lack of creativity and talent is not exposed. Maybe I just expect more from a decent writer. I expect him/her to make me interested in a character on the merits of that character and that character alone.
    I just said Bishop does not have the back story to play so central a role in the X-men mythos, choosing him over Cable would be like choosing Rogue to lead the X-men over Cyclops after M-day, she has leadership experience but the way the x-universe is set up she would need a lot more development to make her the reasonable choice for that role. Same with Bishop, sure, he could do it, but he would need that development for him to take that role and have it make any sense in the greater X-universe, and that development takes time, far more time then the planning that went into Messiah Complex, that's like a half a decade of preparation all just so they could give Bishop that central role, marvel never plans anything that long in advanced in any sort of detail.
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  14. #74
    Omega Mutant ZNOP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ingonyama View Post
    Sinister's orphanage was actually in Nebraska. It's where Scott was raised, and where Sinister grew Madelyne to adulthood before the Phoenix fragment found her and woke her up.
    I stand corrected! Thanks. Although, while striking my previous statement about the orphanage and where Maddie was forced grown -- Maddie and Scott did met in Alaska.
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  15. #75
    Senior Member Meehl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZNOP View Post


    Sinister has/had a base, and an orphanage in Alaska. Scott met and married Madelyne and they lived in Alaska. Scott and Jean got married and lived in Alaska. Then there's the little known fact that Hope was born in Alaska...

    It's highly likely that he'd know.
    All this makes it seem like Sinister was involved, except one thing. Why was Hope born in a hospital without Sinister's knowledge? Sinister had to race to the hospital to fight for Hope, meaning he had lost control over the infant.
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