View Poll Results: Star Wars 7 director?

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  • Steven Spielberg (Friend of Lucas, has often come close to directing a SW)

    7 8.05%
  • George Lucas again

    3 3.45%
  • David Lynch (Almost directed ROTJ)

    0 0%
  • David Filoni (director of Clone Wars movie and series)

    3 3.45%
  • Christopher Nolan (The Dark Knight Trilogy)

    4 4.60%
  • Joss Whedon (Serenity, Avengers, various TV series)

    22 25.29%
  • J. J Abrams (Star Trek, Super 8, various TV series)

    13 14.94%
  • Frank Darabont (Almost directed TPM)

    0 0%
  • Kathleen Kennedy (Basically is co-chair of Lucasfilm)

    0 0%
  • Gendy Tartovsky (The original Clone Wars micro series, various TV series and Hotel Transylvania)

    4 4.60%
  • Brad Bird (Incredibles, Mission Impossible IV)

    14 16.09%
  • Francis Ford Copolla (Godfather trilogy & friend of Lucas)

    0 0%
  • Peter Jackson (Lord of the Rings trilogy)

    6 6.90%
  • Guillermo del Toro (Pan's Labyrynth, Hellboy)

    7 8.05%
  • others

    4 4.60%
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  1. #1681

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    But man, I'll still never forget how I felt when I watched Vader board the Rebel ship in ANH for the first time!
    The first movie is chockful of great moments, that being one of them.

  2. #1682
    Marked for Redemption David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SephirothDZX View Post
    I'd agree with this. I don't think he had much of a pulse on why fans liked certain characters more than others, and when he tried to do this he kind of fumbled.

    In general I'll give Lucas all the credit in the world for being a pretty creative guy, but as a writer I think he's below average.
    Lucas is BRILLIANT, which is why his tendency to give badass characters a piss poor send-off stands out.

    Disney is definitely better at keeping in touch with what makes their characters popular, so I have high hopes that they'll stay true to Lucas' vision but improve on the way he handled Star Wars villains.

    Oddly enough, those kind of off-kilter deaths were some of the standout moments in the Indiana Jones films...whether it was Indy shooting the sword guy, or the plane mechanic getting chopped up by the blades, or the way the Ark had its final vengeance on the Nazis. It just felt like a better fit in Indy's world, because that's what was so fun about the guy. He wasn't the strongest or even the smartest but he had determination and luck going for him.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisIII View Post
    Funny thing is, in the Expanded Universe, both Boba and Maul get ressurected (or weren't dead in the first place). Also Palpatine also gets ressurected a few times (In Dark Horse's Dark Empire trilogy) and finally dies when he gets shot by Han(!) and his spirit wonders into a cyborg Jedi who then dies taking Palpatine with him.

    Thankfully Vader has not appeared, although Anakin's force ghost does make a few appearences.
    I've read Dark Empire, but not much else. Were fans generally satisifed with the Palpatine plot? Seems like it might have reached ludicrous levels.
    "I came to the conclusion that the optimist thought everything good except the pessimist, and the pessimist thought everything bad, except himself." -- G.K. Chesterton

  3. #1683
    Marked for Redemption David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by verslibre View Post
    The first movie is chockful of great moments, that being one of them.
    It's so great how you never once hear Vader's breathing and think, "He's got asthma!" It just added to his badassery.

    Whereas with Greivous it really came across as smoker's lung!
    Last edited by David Walton; 12-11-2012 at 09:45 AM.
    "I came to the conclusion that the optimist thought everything good except the pessimist, and the pessimist thought everything bad, except himself." -- G.K. Chesterton

  4. #1684

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    Oddly enough, those kind of off-kilter deaths were some of the standout moments in the Indiana Jones films...whether it was Indy shooting the sword guy,
    That was fine, because he (the swordsman) was there expressly for that purpose. Now you see him, now you don't. Perfect.


    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    or the plane mechanic getting chopped up by the blades,
    That was a "bloody good" end, though. And that did way more damage than Boba, LOL.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    or the way the Ark had its final vengeance on the Nazis.
    That shit was EPIC.

  5. #1685
    Senior Member Castel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SephirothDZX View Post
    I'd agree with this. I don't think he had much of a pulse on why fans liked certain characters more than others
    Nah, come on, how stupid do you think this guy is?

    People love Vader and some other bad guys cause they look badass, it's that simple. How in hell could he not get that?

    Maul pretty much says or does nothing during most of the movie but people loved him cause he has a double bladed lightsaber and can jump like a frog on acid. Nothing more than that.

    And he has horns, that's kinda cool.

    Lucas knows that.
    Last edited by Castel; 12-11-2012 at 10:05 AM.

  6. #1686
    Marked for Redemption David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by verslibre View Post
    That was fine, because he (the swordsman) was there expressly for that purpose. Now you see him, now you don't. Perfect.




    That was a "bloody good" end, though. And that did way more damage than Boba, LOL.



    That shit was EPIC.
    Oh, I love all of it. I tend to enjoy the Indiana Jones franchise more than Star Wars now.

    I'm just saying that whereas I think a guy like Boba Fett might have been better served in a more intense battle to the death with Han Solo, it makes perfect sense the way Indy's villains die because the MacGuffin isn't what they thought it was. Or because they brought a sword to a gun fight.
    "I came to the conclusion that the optimist thought everything good except the pessimist, and the pessimist thought everything bad, except himself." -- G.K. Chesterton

  7. #1687
    dashing sherlockbones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by verslibre View Post
    Boba's barely more effective than Han in that battle over the Sarlacc. Or maybe it was just the scene's cringeworthy editing? Likewise, I couldn't believe it when Darth Maul ate it in TPM. Georgy should've kept him for at least one more movie. It seemed inconsistent that Maul was so fast and yet Obi-wan could take all of three seconds to somersault upward, reel in his saber, turn it on and turn him into two pepperoni halves.
    "its over! i have the high ground"


  8. #1688
    BANNED Phil Clark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by verslibre View Post
    That was fine, because he (the swordsman) was there expressly for that purpose. Now you see him, now you don't. Perfect.
    Actually, there was supposed to be a major fight between the large swordsman and Indy. They even filmed some of it. But Harrison was sick and wasn't up to the fight choreography, so he mentioned to Spielberg the idea that everyone is expecting a long fight, but Indy being Pragmatic about it wouldn't fight the bigger man with the longer weapon, he would just pull his gun and blam... end of threat. They shot it and produced probably the most realistic outcome for that kind of situation ever filmed. Pure awesomeness.

  9. #1689
    Marked for Redemption David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Clark View Post
    Actually, there was supposed to be a major fight between the large swordsman and Indy. They even filmed some of it. But Harrison was sick and wasn't up to the fight choreography, so he mentioned to Spielberg the idea that everyone is expecting a long fight, but Indy being Pragmatic about it wouldn't fight the bigger man with the longer weapon, he would just pull his gun and blam... end of threat. They shot it and produced probably the most realistic outcome for that kind of situation ever filmed. Pure awesomeness.
    How the stomach flu made cinematic history! It's a defining moment in the franchise...one of those things where you go, "That's so Indiana Jones!"

    Harrison has a great handle on the character and his world, and clearly enjoyed playing him more than Han.
    "I came to the conclusion that the optimist thought everything good except the pessimist, and the pessimist thought everything bad, except himself." -- G.K. Chesterton

  10. #1690
    Elder Member Mat001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guapo Mendez
    He's not brash, he's not reckless. He's the perfect apprentice. Qui-Gon Jinn is brash and reckless.
    Obi-wan was far from perfect as he argued with Qui-gon and you can see the brash and reckless behavior in TPM, with the way he fought.

    But the original point still stands: if they didn't want Luke to have attachments, he should have remained with Yoda in Dagobah.
    And my point still stands, a Jedi will always develop the attachments. They must learn to let it go and Yoda is having a hard time adapting to the new method of training.

    All we see in the 12 hours we spend at the Lars household is Luke working in the field, selecting the robots, working on the robots, finding the message and saying the robots will work fine and he'll be able to go to the Academy, like his uncle promised. Then he's told no, take the robots to have their memories erased and stop slacking (when all we've seen is Luke working diligently).
    Which hardly makes Luke hired help. It's called responsibility. Every parent does it differently. Owen doesn't say no to Luke about the Academy. He just says they'll look at it next year, after he's made enough to hire more people.

    Getting in trouble for it is not the same as getting over something. He didn't race Beggar's Canyon more because he busted his T-16. His uncle could have encouraged that instead of the Academy, to distract him from it.
    Again, trading one danger for another is not the solution. Are you telling me you'd rather your child be injured, or killed drag racing than fighting in the military?

    How is trying to save your friend's lives putting yourself ahead of the needs of others?
    If you have to ask then, then you don't understand the paradox that is made by those higher up than us. One life pales in comparison to a dozen, a hundred or a thousand. That's what Luke and Anakin didn't get until it was too late.

    Putting yourself ahead of others is stopping to watch a race when Nabooideans are dying.
    Qui-gon wasn't putting himself ahead of anyone. He was still thinking about the situation Naboo, but he wasn't making rash decisions. He was thinking about getting them there and this was the solution. He was also thinking of the boy, who appeared to be very important in the grand scheme of things. That's why he says that meeting Anakin was not an accident.

    That's with a grown Luke (and a guy who never made it into the movies). Baby Luke trained by Yoda...he would have had the perfect padawan.
    Except that was the problem. The minute they started training, the Sith would be on to them. They wouldn't be able to train the children, while dodging the Empire. Not to mention the other problem was that they let the children grow up in the Temple and not with families. The Jedi didn't adapt during the thousand years between encounters with the Sith, which is why they wound up being in a sorry state. The Sith adapted, but the Jedi didn't. Now, they were catching up.

    He didn't need to show anything: just leave Amidala alive. Until she died in the end of ROTS, we thought she was alive and raised Leia. He implied the character had depth and suffered for the war she started and then, in one swift stroke, undid that and gave us ForceVision.
    Lucas did suffer, but not for the war. But for contributing to Anakin's decline, making her death all the more tragic. Poetic. A version of "Romeo & Juliet", only with one dead and one dead on the inside.

    So now the Force punished them for being ineffective? Man, did the Force ever punish the Sith, the actual bad guys?
    The Force didn't punish the Jedi. The Sith's actions caused the Force to go out of balance, while the Jedi who had not adapted, fell because of it. The Chosen One was there to stop the Sith and he does, causing the Force to become balanced once again.

    And you can cut yoursel off from the Force? How, you shut down your midichlorians? And you just reopen them? I thought they couldn't do that and that's why Yoda had to hide in Dagobah, to counter the Force he emitted and not be located by the Sith/Empire.
    What is done is that a Force user "disconnects" themselves from the Force, by containing their emotions and going into a state of being, where they cannot be felt in the Force. To total strangers among Force users, they cannot sense it. To those who know each other, it can be a disturbing jolt. Sidious took Maul to the Jedi Temple, using this technique, when the latter was a young boy. They didn't go in, but they got as close as possible without being sensed by the Jedi inside. What Yoda did on Dagobah was due to his desire to remain connected to the Force, in order to prepare for his eventual passing and to keep tabs on Luke and Leia, before their arrival. Disconnecting from the Force would have been counter productive.

    But Anakin had no training and yet Qui-Gon sensed something in the boy.
    He didn't sense the Force. The first thing he noticed was that the boy had a strong and keen insight, something only one connected to the Force would have. That's why Anakin didn't buy his line about killing a Jedi and taking his Lightsaber and Qui-gon said that there was no fooling him. The next thing Qui-gon noted was the boy's pod racing abilities which he says can only happen via strong reflexes. The kind a Jedi has, which is why he catches Jar Jar's tongue like he does as a demonstration of that. He tells Obi-wan that he senses something unusual, but it's not the Force. He doesn't get a taste of his Force ability until the race.

    Like I said, writer inconsistency.
    Unless it is intentional.

    But they still lost Kamino and all references to it. And they even mocked Obi-Wan when he brought it up to Yoda and the Younglings.
    Yoda wasn't mocking Obi-wan. He was talking to the children on their level. What was erased was done so to attract attention to it, when it came time to look for it. Hence Jango using a Kamino saber dart.

    So he said something about the plot to play for the audience and then left it out? Shocking. And those unspoiled people that went to see the movie and found in it nothing to help explain who Sifo-Dyas was? When I was watching, I thougth "who is this guy? 10 years? that's around TPM...there wasn't a guy named Sifo-Dyas back then."
    Lucas left out the history of Sifo-Dyas, but he didn't ignore the plot. He addressed it with Palpatine telling the clone commanders to kill the Jedi. The whole point was that Lucas was making it less obvious that this was going to be the case. He couldn't exactly give away that it was Sidious who was the mastermind of the whole deal. That's why those statements were made, to keep the fan community guessing.

    They had to escape Naboo in order to get to Coruscant to tell them about the invasion. Large droid armies had invaded and they were putting the pressure on the government to make them yield to the Trade Federation.
    That's not leaving a picnic to go return a movie. They effectively left a war zone in order to take in a Nascar race when they could have gotten greyhound tickets in order to fulfill their mission.
    They were a large party that needed to use their ship and not leave anyone behind to use registered transport. Not to mention, they needed the boy. If they left without him, the operation would wind up failing in the end.

  11. #1691
    BANNED Phil Clark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    How the stomach flu made cinematic history! It's a defining moment in the franchise...one of those things where you go, "That's so Indiana Jones!"

    Harrison has a great handle on the character and his world, and clearly enjoyed playing him more than Han.
    When Indy and Marion escaped from the Arcs hiding place, and met Sala on the dunes and Indy tells them what to do, and Sala asks Indy "What are you going to do" and Indy says "I don't know, I'm making this up as I go", that line was an ad-lib. Harrison forgot his lines and was seriously making up his dialog on the spot. Another classic Indy moment, ad-libbed by Harrison Ford.

  12. #1692
    BANNED Phil Clark's Avatar
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    Mat001, Guapo Mendez... Get a room you two. Just shake hands and agree to disagree and let those of us who now prefer to discuss the new movies get on with that without having to wade through page after page after page of you two "point-counterpoint"ing each other ad infinitum.

  13. #1693
    Elder Member Mat001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guapo Mendez
    They knew the death toll was catastrophic and they knew the Federation was there in spades. Not responding to the message helped them not to reveal their position (but a plot hole later and there goes Maul to their hidey-hole...and wouldn't you know it? they are there because they are betting on the outcome of a race! The Queen left her people to cheer for a 9 year old!), but the urgency in their mission was still red hot.
    Padme didn't know what was going on, because she chose to go into town and not stay with the ship. Qui-gon kept that from her, because he did not want to argue with her on the point. Maul found them because he was able to triangulate the receiver to the planet, but not to their exact location. A reply would zero him in. And as I mentioned, the Jedi weren't sure if it was true or not that the people were actually suffering or not. That it could have been a ploy to force a reply.

    Belief.
    Belief is only a factor, not the sole cause. There still needs to be a connection. Otherwise, Han would have been a Jedi.

    And the midichlorians might have been a genetic component, but they could appear in kids from non-force using families. Since they can't be transfered (blood transfusions/clones can't inherit the Force connection) it's irrelevant to try and raise kids with high midichlorian counts. Add to that the fact that Jedi can't marry and you've made the genetic part of the Force irrelevant.
    No, it is relevant because that's where Luke and Leia come in. Once again, the Jedi did have families once upon a time. Then during the last Jedi/Sith war, this changed to just recruiting children with sufficient Midichlorian counts. In an unexpected twist, Anakin fathers twin children with Padme, who are both as powerful as he was. And would one day grow up to be trained as Jedi to face him and Sidious. When Luke will go to rebuild the Jedi, he will start with Leia and eventually spread out to others.

    But they could have cut the kiss without too much trouble.
    It would still interfere with the flow of the scene transition as well as lose out on Han and Leia's discussion.

    Hey, I wish Lucas had kept things straight. When you write something, you better remember how you did it in order not to contradict yourself later on.
    He did keep it straight. That's why he was able to do that, because what he and Brackett came up with was abandoned by Kershner and Kasdan.

    How can you misinterpret George Walton Lucas when he says there is padding in the story?

    Look, all writers are master bullshitters. They have to be. They will say they always had in mind the high concepts, the cool stuff, the subtextual, metatextual and poignant social critique. Even when they have no clue how they did it. When Lucas admits he was making it up all along and decided to have fun and pad the story, that's the unvarnished truth. And he has, several times. He may embellish the epic tale of making Star Wars, but he has also admitted he spent time he didn't have in telling parts of the story we didn't need.
    Lucas padded the story, but the padding served the story. That's my point. No, the pod race wasn't needed, but it did add to the story. It still fit in with Anakin as a pilot. The meadow picnic still advanced the story as it advanced the love story and set up the differences between the characters.

    Just to use one example: if you haven't seen The Clone Wars, you have no idea who Grievous is, why is he so scary and why does he cough like a 4 pack a day smoker.
    Does it matter? Before AOTC, we didn't know who Boba Fett was and TESB was fine. We didn't know who Tarkin was in ANH, but it was still fine. We didn't know who Sidious was, but it was still fine. We know who Grievous is in ROTS, because we're told he's the general of the Droid Army and was trained by Dooku.

    He had to be dragged by the plot so we could believe him to be the unlikely, unbelievable hero of the story. Lucas admitted that was one of the tough sells in TPM.
    But he still sold it.

    Didn't you in the other thread type that the shields opened up just in time to allow Anakin because another ship from the Trade Federation was leaving?
    Nope. I went to Wookieepedia and looked it up. It said that the Federation ships did not have the kinds of shields that prevented ships from coming in and out. Afterwards, this was corrected which is why Obi-wan and Anakin had to fire on the shield generator in order to get into the Invisible Hand.

    Again, the plot had to be dumbed down for Anakin to succeed.
    How does the droids being not being smart dumb down the plot? It was essentially in showing the birth of the Stormtroopers.

    And you don't put the generator near the hangar because a damaged ship or a malfunctioning weapons system can blow up your ship.
    And the odds of that are extremely small.

    It's redundant. We heard the same dialogue minutes before and it's jarring.
    We heard Jabba deciding to let Han go, with the promise of paying him back with interest? Wow, I didn't know Greedo said that.

    And not believable.
    To you. Not to everyone.

    He said he had to leave plot points up in the air and focus on Vader. Which is what he should have done from the beginning.
    He addressed everything that needed to be addressed. Showing the birth of the Alliance isn't as important as showing Anakin becoming Vader.

    But the parts he wasn't successfully trained could have been solved easily: helping his mother, giving him a more seasoned trainer, keeping him away from all the politics. Lucas, bless his little heart, tried to make Anakin's fall believable, but he just focused in the basic-level version, when he implied it was master degree stuff. It's like if in ANH the Death Star would have blown up by itself. The good guys didn't need to do anything to win the day: just show up.
    Except you're missing the whole point, those were the factors in his fall. You can't go around saying, they should have done it differently. Of course they should have. They being the characters, not Lucas. He showed us Anakin's fall was the result of his choices, based on the world around him. That's why Obi-wan says that he failed Anakin, because he did in his own way. It's why he said that they were all deceived by a lie, just like many were by those in political power who appeared to be trustworthy, when they really weren't.

    But not telling him and letting him know that in the heat of battle almost got him killed. Telling him that Vader was his father would have let him be a bit more prepared
    Except they didn't believe he was ready to hear the truth.

    the problem here and in the PT is the way the Jedi lied to their Knights and then acted surprised when it blew up in their faces
    The Jedi didn't lie in the PT. They did stuff that made them seem contradictory. Anakin just jumped to the wrong conclusion because of his attachments to Padme and to Palpatine.

    And all the stuff that made up TPM and AOTC, all the extra stuff was proven not to be needed in the climax. And what's the stuff that is not important to the climax?
    Padding
    The meadow picnic was important in establishing Anakin and Padme's romance. It established Anakin's belief in dictatorship. Both of which came back in ROTS, when Anakin chooses a dictatorship over his wife. The Boonta Eve was how Anakin's gifts came to be known to Qui-gon and Obi-wan, which played into Anakin being trained as a Jedi.

    Not knowing almost got him killed.
    Vader wasn't going to kill Luke. He was going to turn him.
    Last edited by Mat001; 12-11-2012 at 01:05 PM.

  14. #1694
    Elder Member Mat001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guapo Mendez
    And Luke was putting their needs ahead of his own. It's not like he was rescuing his pets or his Jedi Card collection. These were important people to the Rebellion.
    No, Luke was important to the Alliance because he was the last of the Jedi and the only chance they had against the Sith. He wasn't putting their needs ahead of his own. It was the reverse. He didn't want to lose his friends, because he couldn't deal with not having them.

    Vader said he was going to leave them there and Lando was wise enough no to talk and make him spoil the deal. Besides, he absconded with them and abandoned Cloud City and joined the Rebellion.
    Vader is a Sith and not to be trusted. Not everything he will say is the truth. He is capable of changing his mind at random. That's why he said that he wanted them on the Executor. Lando only joined the Alliance because of Han was frozen and Vader changing his mind like he did.

    But the point is that the Death Star didn't blow up by itself. ANH had the Rebel Alliance knowing a flaw in the Death Star and exploiting it. They knew where to hit and with what. TPM has the Naboo fighters in a suicide attack, Anakin completely clueless about the fight and then land in the most convenient spot to fire a torpedo and then making it out alive.
    You're missing the point. The Alliance had an advantage because they knew how to destroy the Death Star, the Naboo didn't know how to do it. That doesn't mean that the plot was dead. Anakin knew about the battle because he listened into the briefing. He knew that the ship had to be destroyed and it was established that there was no known weaknesses in the Federation ship. Much less that the fighters were capable of knocking it out from the outside since they weren't designed for war.

    In ROTS Anakin turns on a dime on the Jedi, his friends, the younglings, Padme. The post-production cut and pasting of the scenes does not help the story and his conversion is completely unbelievable.
    And in ROTJ, Luke would have done the same thing if he killed Vader and embrace the dark side. Yoda even says that using the dark side will consume the good in you. Sidious tells Vader that by not hesitating and not showing mercy, will he become strong. And the more he uses it, the more he becomes evil. He even turns on a dime again in ROTJ. There is no lengthy time table for it.

    Of course he is. He destroys the Death Star, he's the reason why Anakin turned to the Light side again and he'll reignite the Jedi fire in the Galaxy.
    It was Luke's story before the PT reared its ugly head. He changed it later, when he decided it was all the Tragedy of Darth Vader.
    Luke was the new hope, but Vader was the hero of the day in ROTJ. It's been that way since 1982. Both had their parts to play, which is what Lucas pointed out in the making of ROTS.

    Hey, if he had kept the naming consistent, I'd give it props. But in the OT it's light and dark and in the PT is living and unifying. Consistency, George, consistency.
    The light and dark is in the PT. The living and unifying is what defines what aspect of the Force is used. The light and the dark is what defines the actions of those who use the Force. There is no contradiction.

    Quote Originally Posted by verslibre
    In a reply to one of my earlier posts where I mentioned this, Mat posited that Anakin in his madness-bordering grief (my wording, not his) had no choice "but to go forward with Palpatine," i.e. that was his only option after preventing Mace Windu from destroying Don Palpatinos.

    Since it's easier to reply here than go and dig for it, I don't buy that reasoning because to do so would render Anakin a robot. After listening to Palp's spiel about dark things the Sith can do that Jedi cannot, and with Mace's arrival with the other Jedi (who were all dispatched with an unintentionally hilarious ease), to imagine that Anakin had not yet put two and two together and deduced that Palp was a Sith would make him a pretty stupid guy. He should have come to his senses and not killed Mace. To start to believe somebody's bullshit about "killing death" points to self-delusion.
    Anakin knew that Palpatine was a Sith. He sided with him because of his "madness-boarding grief". He let his emotions cloud his judgment which is dangerous for a Jedi and it is why they forbade attachments in the first place. He knew that as a Sith, he could be lying to him. But then, he might be telling him the truth. Anakin could not let this go. He was so desperate to believe that there was a way out, that he let himself believe in Palpatine. Luke was able to think more clearly, because even though he was facing many similar situations, he was still able to break free of the darkness and resist it. Luke actually stops to think things through.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guapo Mendez
    But if the Force is the scale, the thing that binds the galaxy together, why would it hinder the Jedi by taking their ability to see the future? Why, if the Force is the scale, is it taking sides? The Force had been portrayed as a passive thing, something you tap and wield and use, for good or evil. In the OT, it wasn't about balancing the Force: it was about destroying the evil Empire and the dastardly Emperor.
    The Force isn't taking sides. The Force reacts to what is being done to it. The Jedi pay the price because of it and because they are losing touch within themselves.

    But the damage was already done. And it all came crashing down during ROTS.
    Rejecting Anakin wasn't what caused him to turn. It was keeping him in the dark about the Force.

    Few years later, he cuts Mace's hands off and leads a raid into the temple. He personally kills the Younglings.
    Because he loses respect for Mace and because he puts Padme ahead of them.

    And if this had made it into the opening crawl of TPM and he had focused in Anakin from then on, we'd have a different movie. But he made the background the focus and left the focus in the background. He only pulled it together by ROTS and it's a shame, because we only got 5 minutes of Darth Vader in what was supposed to be his origin.
    We still got that in the PT. We see the Senate is broken because it follows procedure and is controlled by corporations, more than the Senate. We see that it is all about money regarding the trade routes and that the Confederacy is backed by it's own greed.

    But Obi didn't know. He was in the ship when that happened. Amidala knew and forgot about her mother in law.
    Anakin blames Obi-wan for holding him back. For not letting him train the way that he feels he should have been trained. He doesn't blame Padme, because it wasn't her fault in his mind. It's not about Shmi being left behind, but because of his lack of power to stop her from dying.

    Yep. One minute before, he's still a jedi. After, twisted and evil. With yellow eyes. Ugh.
    He stopped being a Jedi when he killed Dooku in cold blood. He just hadn't made the choice to join Sidious yet and once he stopped holding back his fear, anger and hate, was he able to become truly evil.

    Yes it would, because one of the overarching things in the series is attachment. Luke is separated from Leia and Han and he still reacts and is willing to abandon his Jedi training in order to save them. Anakin could have been an 18 year old (like Luke) and fear losing his mother and feel something bad is going to happen to her (like Luke with Han and Leia) and still risk everything to save her and fail to do so. It worked fine in OT, and if we had had an older Anakin (maybe 9 year old Anakin for 15 minutes and then aged him to Hayden's age), he could still be suffering from separation anxiety and the stuff about losing his mother still works. And you'd believe he'd be an active participant in the fight to destroy the Trade Federation ship and not the football of the Force-carried touchdown.
    Except it's a different scenario. Luke spends his life with the Lars and learns from them the life lessons that are needed. Obi-wan learned his lessons from Yoda and Qui-gon, as they were in his life the whole way. Anakin was in the middle. He had his mother at first, before he had Qui-gon and then Obi-wan. His emotional downfall comes because of his age when he leaves home. Luke feels the pull of evil, but he resists because of his upbringing. Those twenty years spent with the Lars.

    The films could have been more successful if he had kept his eyes on the prize.
    They were still successful regardless. Having LOTR, "The Avengers" and Batman box office doesn't change that.

    It looks like pod racing wasn't as interesting as saving the galaxy from evil. And if Luke got over his racing phase when he was 9, the only reason Lucas had to put a landlocked sporting event was to sell us his starfighter ending later on. He could have had a 9 year old Anakin being recruited by Obi-Wan in Tatooine, separate him from his mother, go to Coruscant and begin training and then fastforward him to Hayden age and then showing how the Trade Federation/Naboo situation deteriorated and then he's a believable starfighter pilot.
    What Anakin did as a kid would have no bearing on Luke. It just shows that Owen had different priorities for Luke than Watto, who put Anakin in the pod races to begin with. Anakin's situation was of a slave who yearned for freedom and had to fight for it. Luke's situation was wanting to do something greater than what he was destined for, but having to conquer the fear of defying his family.
    Last edited by Mat001; 12-11-2012 at 02:08 PM.

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    Elder Member Mat001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guapo Mendez
    Anakin knew he was conceived by the Force? And how could he tie it to Palpatine being the one who created him? There are a lot of gaps between his origin and Plagueis/Sidious creating him. Gaps that were more relevant than time given to Jar Jar, for instance.
    Anakin knew because Shmi had long since told him that he didn't have a father. Everything else he would know from being in the Temple. He knew that he was the Chosen One and what he was supposed to do.

    If Christ had had those abilities -or used them- before starting his public life, people would have known and it wouldn't have been difficult for him to be a prophet in his own land. He chose to reveal those abilities when he his time came. You can believe the Son of God to bring back the dead after he is 30 years old. A 9 year old Son of Christ bringing back the dead and you're into Pet Sematary territory.
    That's my point. We don't know everything there is, because there is the possibility that stuff did happen along those lines, but it was not put into the Bible because the Church didn't want it to put Christ in a different light. Just like they're not keen to the idea that he might have been married. We know what we were allowed to know. With the PT, we saw what we didn't know.

    Because outside of slapstick comedy, you want your hero to put an effort into achieving goals. The hero overcomes adversity and struggles to defeat the bad guy. Sure, he could waltz in and accidentally do him in, but that's cheap.
    Fortunately for you, there was more than one hero in the Battle of Naboo.

    Boba was and his part was expanded in the OT due to his popularity, but after his splash in AOTC, he's gone, gone, gone. Again, another disposable villain.
    He's done in AOTC and only important again in the OT.

    Chewbacca knowing Yoda -and being good friends with the Jedi- clashes with the "old fossil" conversation he has with Han Solo.
    Chewie thinks Obi-wan is mad because he's only one Jedi, by himself and without back-up. Even Yoda had Clonetroopers when he arrived and needed the help of Wookiees to get off world.

    Over the years they have been friends, he doesn't tell him about how ancient weapons and hokey religions kicked all kinds of ass in that battle?
    This assumes that it was ever worth discussing until now.

    We can assume that Luke was doing things that allowed him to be an X-Wing pilot, and even his idea to try out for the Academy could mean he had time in a simulator.
    Except Luke didn't as we saw when he got to Yavin 4. That's why Biggs had to lie when Pops questioned Luke.

    We see Anakin flying a pod and we know there is no way the skills are transferable to a starfighter.
    Forward, backward, side to side. Pretty basic.

    The mission is helping the Queen escape and report to Coruscant. They could have sold the ship as is for spacefare to Coruscant and when Maul showed up, they'd been long gone.
    Not enough for over a dozen people. And they still needed Anakin, because of his abilties and his birthright. They would have been up shit creek without him.

    Then if they knew the last time they ignored their rules and trained a 9 year old, why would they risk it again with his kid? They should have taken refuge in their rules even more and had either Obi or Yoda raise the kid fully within the Jedi way.
    Because their way cost them dearly. Hence changing the rules, just like the Sith did. And they needed to keep the children protected at all costs, until the time was right to come back. That time was when ANH begins.

    All over the OT we get that it is a religion, that the Force is all around us, even in rocks, and that we're luminous beings and not crude matter, and that if you don't believe, you won't be able to accomplish Force feats. Nowhere does it say that you have to have over X amount of midichlorians to even register as a Force-user. It's implied that it's a genetic thing, but it's never quantified. PT showed they had to test to see how big their schwartz was.
    Lucas did quantify it in the second draft, that the Jedi started because of one holy man who passed his knowledge on to his children and so on. He was quantifying it in the PT, specifically, because he was going to show us how the Jedi were once upon a time. And how Anakin turns.

    And good teachers wouldn't go on and on about belief and would start by knowing how much their students have in order to see how (and even if they can) teach them.
    Teachers will encourage their students, even after knowing their limits, because they cater to that. If a teacher knows that their student is capable of doing the work, in spite of their limitations, they will continue to encourage them to keep trying.

    Man, did I miss the scene where the nurse slipped him the envelope with the midichlorian count?
    It doesn't need to be shown. We know that it was done.

    I'm not the only one with this arguments. You can find people calling attention to discrepancies in web forums, sites and books.
    Meanwhile the real world doesn't give a damn.

    On paper, that's great. In reality, we spent too much time in kiddie pursuits (he built 3P0, a pod race, won the race), Jar Jar's antics and his unbelievable performance as a starfighter and the last 20 seconds of the movie show him as a padayoungling. Step two toned down the mistakes of TPM, all but disappeared Jar Jar, but wasted Obi-Wan as a noir detective, showed us a 1950's cafe (?), introduced not Boba Fett but his clonefather and let us know that the Clone Wars would be dealt with...in the cartoon. And we find out that the Jedi cannot marry and it clashes with My Family Is Strong In the Force, which would have been taboo in the OT because Jedi's couldn't marry -sure, they could have sex, but they couldn't have families. Step three was when Lucas found out he had no more time and had to drop all the stuff not directly related to Vader and show his conversion. Anakin should have been more gray in AOTC and the grey-black at the start of ROTS and fully black by the end. Him flip-flopping between "I'm still a Jedi" and then "yeah, let's kill them all and I'll kill the younglings" is completely jarring.
    Bitch, bitch, bitch.

    He was a highly placed imperial officer, but he wasn't a fallen Jedi. The empire could spit and find a whole mess of Tarkins. Jedis -fallen or otherwise- would have been harder to find.
    Still doesn't change a thing.

    I've searched the net and found exactly zero hits of people saying that he should have been in TESB.
    I was never implying that at all.

    Maul was a Sith. It would have been natural to be Palpatine's dragon until ROTS.
    Natural, but not the story Lucas was interested in.

    With the most powerful Jedi alive, dedicated solely to teaching him. Over 800 years of wisdom to be imparted, without the problem of repurposing Luke's mind for learning.
    And that was the problem. Hence going in the opposite direction. If Luke had been trained from birth, the Force wouldn't be balanced and his father would never get to be a good man again.

    But it's his attitude what Yoda disapproves. The seventh reason is his age.
    The maturity is in part because of his age. He's immature for a twenty three year old.

    But Vader was still the highest threat because he was in the field, rounding them up. Boba Fett was there, but he only took Han because of Vader. Killing Maul leaves you without a villain you can expand in the other two movies and takes time away from the story by introducing another character. And I didn't say Obi-Wan needed to seek revenge, just to find his mentor's killer and try to unravel the mysteries of the Sith Master.
    It wouldn't make sense for Maul to let Obi-wan live. That's why he had to die. Vader had an excuse because he was shot down by Han and sent spiraling off into the distance. Maul's death forces Sidious to focus on Anakin and uses Tyranus to get the job done.

    Talked about since ANH, as the Damocles sword that hung over Han Solo as a consequence to his heroic actions. Classic "no good deed goes unpunished". And in TESB you know Boba is going to take him to Jabba, so he doesn't spring from behind a column.
    Dooku was the mystery because the Jedi didn't know that he was a Sith Lord. Grievous was just a soldier much like Tarkin was.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton
    Just to spark a different discussion, how did Boba Fett give off the impression of being such a badass?

    His most significant accomplishment in the films is kissing Vader's ass so he'll hand him the prisoner he couldn't catch himself.

    Unless you count getting eaten by the Sarlacc Pit...

    I guess it's just because he looked cool and mysterious, which gives off the impression that he'd had much better days before he got on a Jedi's bad side.
    The mystery was enhanced because Fett was first introduced during a parade featuring "Star Wars" characters. Then he appeared in "The Holiday Special". He was one of the first new action figures put out, to sneak peak TESB. Then he popped up in the newspaper strip. So there was a build up to Fett that was enhanced by the mysterious nature of the character.

    I've read Dark Empire, but not much else. Were fans generally satisifed with the Palpatine plot? Seems like it might have reached ludicrous levels.
    They were in the first book, but not the sequels. Mostly because they were kinda rushed.

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