View Poll Results: Star Wars 7 director?

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  • Steven Spielberg (Friend of Lucas, has often come close to directing a SW)

    7 8.05%
  • George Lucas again

    3 3.45%
  • David Lynch (Almost directed ROTJ)

    0 0%
  • David Filoni (director of Clone Wars movie and series)

    3 3.45%
  • Christopher Nolan (The Dark Knight Trilogy)

    4 4.60%
  • Joss Whedon (Serenity, Avengers, various TV series)

    22 25.29%
  • J. J Abrams (Star Trek, Super 8, various TV series)

    13 14.94%
  • Frank Darabont (Almost directed TPM)

    0 0%
  • Kathleen Kennedy (Basically is co-chair of Lucasfilm)

    0 0%
  • Gendy Tartovsky (The original Clone Wars micro series, various TV series and Hotel Transylvania)

    4 4.60%
  • Brad Bird (Incredibles, Mission Impossible IV)

    14 16.09%
  • Francis Ford Copolla (Godfather trilogy & friend of Lucas)

    0 0%
  • Peter Jackson (Lord of the Rings trilogy)

    6 6.90%
  • Guillermo del Toro (Pan's Labyrynth, Hellboy)

    7 8.05%
  • others

    4 4.60%
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  1. #1651
    Senior Member SephirothDZX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisIII View Post
    Vader was definetly marketed as the SW villain. He looms large in pretty much every poster. I think one of the only posters to even feature Tarkin was that cool one with Luke, Han, and Leia with the blasters. Despite the inaccuracies with Vader's saber and the funky Y-wing design, I've always liked it better than the Luke with saber in the air poster which is more famous.

    The prequels posters seemed to mainly just use the disposable villain, TPM had Maul in the backdrop, AOTC had Jango Fett. ROTS had Vader in the background, and pretty much all the merchandise had a Vader motif, which was kind of misleading because suited Vader shows up only for a few moments toward the end of the film, and emotionally is not quite the villain from the OT yet. Plus a lot of those pics had Vader with the red saber which isn't in the movie at all!
    That was probably my biggest let-down about Revenge of the Sith
    Eh, Comics is a pretty cool guy...

  2. #1652
    Senior Member Castel's Avatar
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    Just watched the 11th episode of the 5th season of the clone wars, not a very good one by the way, and i thought : man, they made a show taking place during the second and third episode (during the clone war), they should make a show like that but this time between the episode 4 and 5. (during the galactic civil war)

    Between the humiliation of Yavin and the ass-whooping of Hoth. Lot of room there for crazy adventures with the rebels and the imperials.

    And with an animated show it doesn't matter how old the actors are of course. Well, maybe Hamill would agree to take once more the role of Luke who knows?

    Disney, you make this, you make it good and by the cosmic giant turtle who created our world and us all never, never again i would say things as that you're a creepy, evil corporation.

    N-E-V-E-R. Even when you're going to buy the united states, 5 years from now.
    Last edited by Castel; 12-10-2012 at 01:11 PM.

  3. #1653
    Senior Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    ^We're sort-of getting that. Except it's a weird-looking comedy series called Star Wars Detours.

    But it'd be nice to have a more serious approach at some point.

    They might not even need the original actors-video game voice actors have been doing very good impersonations for years; and the Clone Wars actors managed to do a decent job (and in some ways, an improvement) of imitating the PT characters.

    Of course Mark Hammil is a noted animation voice actor himself (As Batman Animated/DC universe/Arkham Joker); with some of the talent CW has attracted I'm surprised he hasn't played at least a villain or something. He only did a voice over for Luke a few times in the holiday special animation and later an ad for Del Rey's novels.

    With previous EU canon going out the window and Luke/Han/Leia possibly being involved in the new movies this could work out.

  4. #1654
    Senior Member Castel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisIII View Post
    it'd be nice to have a more serious approach at some point.
    Well, something i really appreciate about this clone wars show is all the different themes and ambiances it proposes. One episode about the clones, one about Anakin and Ashoka, one about Padme, one about the consequences of war, one about what it means to be a jedi....they write about so many different things. Sometimes it works for you, sometimes it doesn't, but at least they try to be creative and to interest all kind of people.

    Something like that in the galactic civil war era would be great.

  5. #1655
    Senior Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    I meant as oppossed to "Detours", not the Clone Wars.

  6. #1656
    Elder Member Mat001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castel View Post
    My reaction? Well, if i was a woman and found myself pregnant i think my first reaction would be to ask myself who in hell the damn father can be and when was the last time i got drunk. The two things being most probably kinda related.

    But that's just silly old me. Of course the most logical thing to first think about is that it just magically happened.

    Just like that. Expecto Spermus!!

    Funnily enough it seems that even Qui-Gon has some doubts about the miraculous conception cause he said that it was "possible" that the boy was conceived by the midi-thingie.

    Wise man, wise indeed.
    Right, but you're forgetting. She's a slave. She doesn't have the luxury of getting drunk, much less having a man. She also didn't just jump to the conclusion right away. She went over everything and found no evidence that anything illict happened. Ergo, she couldn't explain it. Qui-gon doesn't doubt it. He doesn't know at first. He asks who the father was, assuming that she was married once and that he was gone now. When she told him about how Anakin came to be, Qui-gon was confused. Thus after he did a Midichlorian test and saw the count was off the charts, he began to formulate a theory about how Anakin came to be. Which he then realized meant that he was the Chosen One spoken of long ago.

    It is a cheap trick because Lucas said it was a cheap trick.

    "We don't need Luke to tell this story. We could get somebody else to do it... 'He's not the important one - there is another.' It's a cheap trick, but it works." - From the 2004 DVD commentary

    And you can see in ANH that Luke has the hots for Leia. He's a farm kid who wants to play the hero and there's a princess to rescue. The stuff of fairy ta
    Which still doesn't change the rest of what I said. It only comes off as a cheap trick since there was no reference to the sibling until TESB.

    The best parts of Obi-Wan were given to Qui-Gon and Obi's role was diminished. He had a limited time to tell a story and he wasted it introducing other characters and other plot points he dropped like a hot potatoe when he ran out of time.
    He didn't drop any plot point. It was revealed within the films themselves. As to Obi-wan's role, it's far from diminished in TPM. He still has a substantial part regardless.

    And in ANH, he had captured Leia but not Han.
    In ANH, Vader didn't know that he had children. Leia was captured only to find the Rebel base and he only becomes obsessed with Luke after the Death Star was destroyed. Because of this Obi-wan gave Luke his father's saber and told him the truth. Their first option was out now and he was the back up.

    Based on what we see in ANH, Owen was a massive dick to Luke, especially when you consider his origin. Negating everything, treating him like the help...he could have treated him better and still manage to keep him out of the rebellion.
    Owen gave Luke responsibilities which a lot of good parents do. Luke had chores which a lot of farm kids have to do. That doesn't mean that Luke was treated like hired help. He was treating him the same way his father treated him years ago. Luke thinks it's unfair because he's a kid, who doesn't like it when he has fun time interrupted. And Owen did need help from Luke. It wasn't a dick thing to do.

    He could have pushed him into being part of a pod race crew..
    Why? Luke had no interest in pod racing. He had already done his racing stint when he was nine and had gotten in trouble for it.

    Usually you let go an attachment to a person when the person dies.
    That's not how it works. The attachment is the fear of losing the ones you care for and the greed, jealousy, anger, possessive and obsessiveness that can come with it. When you put the needs of yourself ahead of the needs of others.

    It would have been an attachment to a Jedi Master not only extremely capable of defending himself, but one very close to death and hiding in a very good hidey-hole. The situation would have solved itself.
    No, it wouldn't. Xanatos should not have sided with his father. Luke should have stayed on Dagobah and finished his training. Anakin should not have obsessed over cheating death. Ahsoka learned from Luminara that she was hurting herself and endangering Anakin's life, by refusing to do what needed to be done.

    Gravitas, pathos, you name it. Seeing for years the results of how badly they handled things works to develop character.
    Except Lucas never intended to show any of that at any point in time. Even before he began working on the PT.

    The explanation in-story was shoddy because they didn't always handled well outside the story. Sidious blocking the council (not Yoda's, not Mace's but the Council's access to the Force should have required a massive effort in his part, 24/7 blockage of the most powerful Jedis. I'm sorry, but that's so unbalanced it's stupid.)
    He didn't block their access to the Force. The Force did that to them because they were losing their connection to the Living Force. The dark side grew exponentially to the point where they couldn't see future events. What Sidious did around the Council was just cut himself off from the Force, the same way that Ventress tried it around Dooku when they first met and what Jacen did years later.

    Vader doesn't feel the Force in Leia because Leia wasn't a Skywalker in ANH.
    True, but as it is now, we know that he didn't because she had no Jedi training. Same with Luke, who was on the Death Star and not sensed by Vader. He didn't sense Luke until he went to destroy the Death Star.

    Vader felt Obi-Wan's presence in the Death Star.
    But he didn't know that Obi-wan was two feet from him. Vader didn't sense Luke was a couple hundred feet on the other side of the hangar on Hoth. Sidious didn't sense Luke arriving at Endor like Vader did. Again, sensing each other in the Force is not like Immortals sensing each other in "Highlander".

    Shoddy archive maintenance.
    Quite the opposite. The system ran so smoothly that they didn't need to do that. Not to mention it was well outside of the Republic, which is something that isn't going to be brought up that often in conversation.

    What, they handled SysOp passwords to everyone?
    An Astromech could have been used to hack the passwords, if there were any at all.

    Oh, yeah. I was working with the original idea that Sidious was going to be Sido-Dyas. And Lucas promised we'd know more about him and that we'd seen him before. False and false.
    Technically true and technically false. Lucas wasn't going to give it away to the general audience when he spoke about it. Hence going the extra mile with those statements. He was already aware that the online community knew about AOTC's plot, including Sido-Dyas. His statements were for the larger audience that weren't spoiled earlier. That's why Sifo-Dyas was left to the EU.

    Then if he's immune and you're pressed for time, why not go to the other dealers, get money changed, buy the part, buy the boy? You're in a desperate mission, you don't have time to take in a race and run a few bets. The more you stay in a planet, the faster you'll be caught. The key element in escaping is to keep moving.
    They were safe on Tatooine because of the Hutts. Ergo, there was no need to rush. There was no one else who was going to exchange the money and no one else had the parts needed. And Watto wasn't going to sell the boy, not for something so messily.

    The conditions of the fight, the amount of dead, the amount of destruction in cities, the access to the cities secrets, treasury, the entrenchment of the invading army. Are you familiar with warfare at all?
    There was no battle. The government just surrendered. Only a few pockets of resistance were left. And as Obi-wan and Qui-gon discussed, Bibble's message could have been a ploy to make Padme respond. They could only go with what they knew right now.

    In the OT the amount of midichlorians is irrelevant, because they are not mentioned once. I'm sure Yoda didn't test Luke to know how big his midichlorian count was (unless I missed the scene in ROTS). So he cannot know how well his midichlorians connect him to the Force. The OT is about belief, about unlearning, trusting the Force. If midichlorians were important, Yoda and Obi-Wan would have wanted to see a count, in order to see how much Luke would be able to accomplish and what would be beyond his scope.
    They already knew all of this before leaving Polis Massa. They would have tested both children and saw that they had the same potential as their father. Luke's problems wasn't his Midichlorian count, but his mental ability to accept it.

    YODA: "You must unlearn, what you have learned."

    You can fix that. Just show them in the command room. They *are* part of the command team, no?
    The intercom summoning was the reason why they went to the command room straight after seeing Luke.

  7. #1657
    Elder Member Mat001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guapo Mendez
    Where, here? Not the only one.
    You're the most vocal about it.

    And it doesn't affect you when you go from ROTS to ROTJ and see that the one of the twins had the hots for his sister and they kissed to make another guy jealous?
    No. Hasn't for years and years. Just like it probably doesn't for a lot of people.

    He shortchanged us when he went all picnics and pod races.
    You're misinterpreting it. Lucas took what was important and focused on it. The newer stuff was in developing and exploring the stuff that he was interested in telling. The pod race was the cumulation of Anakin's origin and establishing his abilities. The meadow picnic was to establish the relationship between Anakin and Padme. Story elements were still advanced such as Anakin's political leanings and Padme's falling in love with Anakin.

    You need elements outside movies to explain Qui-Gon, Dooku, the Clone Wars, Grievous...it doesn't help the movie series.
    What needs to be explained?

    Whereas Anakin couldn't even get to the battle without the help of the automatic pilot;
    Anakin wasn't going to participate in the space battle. He was only seeking to help Qui-gon and Obi-wan, who were distracted by Maul and didn't see the Droidekas. He got dragged into the battle, yes, but he opted to stay in it once he got there.

    the shields open just for him
    The shields weren't designed to keep out ships. Just blaster bolts.

    the robots fail to open fire on a clearly Nabooidean craft and give him time for his ship to cool down and then the ship placed the generators close to the hangar.
    The droids aren't smart to begin with. That was established early on. As to the location of the generator, why wouldn't it be put there?

    Most of them were filtered/punched up by Kasdan, Kerschner and Marcia. The PT has them 100% pure.
    He still asked the opinions of others and took their advice.

    More ships? Sure. A change in the title to fit your hexalogy idea? Right on. Jabba in a scene minutes after Greedo has the exact same lines? Uh, oh. Han shoots second, in an impossible neck-twist? Someone get that man away from the editing board.
    The bottom line is Lucas has never not tinkered with his movies. The Jabba scene adds a new wrinkle which is that Han is given one last chance to redeem himself for Jabba, something not in the Greedo scene.

    There were a lot of things that would have been easier if Anakin had been twelve...The casting would have been easier, for on ething; and it would have been easier to justify things like the podrace or the way he is able to fly a starfighter at the end fo the movie. But the problem was that a twelve-year-old leaving his mother -as Anakin does- is not nearly as traumatic as a nine-year-old leaving his mother. And there is a key story point that revolves around the fact that he was separated from his mother at an early age, and how that has affected him. So I slid the age down as far as I could- but then I had the problem of him being able to race a pod and fly the starfighter [...] making that ending credible was definitely one of the tougher issues.
    Tougher, but not impossible.

    No, he didn't. He left a lot out of, especially when he had no more time to say anything in ROTS.
    He addressed what was important to the story.

    So there were fives of thousands of disgruntled former jedis?
    No, it just means that Jedi training is a crap shoot no matter how it's done. It always comes down to what the Jedi chooses to do with their knowledge. Anakin was successfully trained in nearly every way. His failure was in making a choice to go against that training. Luke succeeded, but went against what Yoda and Obi-wan wanted him to do. Dooku was a Jedi Master when he fell because of his own personal fears and anger over what the Jedi had become. Being a Jedi is a constant struggle between staying the course and taking the easy way out.

    Then you send a kid you know he's a turn-risk, against his father? That's a good way to lose the fight, the father and the trainee.
    No, they send someone who is capable of understanding why his father became evil, because now he understands the Force a lot better than he had before coming to Dagobah. In other words, they were going to train Luke until he was like he is in ROTJ and then tell him the truth, before sending him on his way.

    Lucas said he had to drop a lot in order to concentrate in the last 80% of the story he still needed to tell.
    But nothing that wasn't so important to the film. ROTS covered everything that needed to be said.

    Luke could have made a more informed decision if he had known all he needed.
    Luke wasn't ready for the knowledge yet, hence pleading with him not to go.

    Could have been months, years...
    A sacrifice Han and Leia would gladly make for Luke, if it meant destroying the Sith and toppling the Empire.

    But Vader doesn't know she's his daughter. And she was going to remain in Cloud City.
    True on the first, but she was still a war criminal. There was no guarantee that she would stay on Cloud City, if Luke had shown up or not. If he didn't take the bait, Vader could have taken her to Coruscant to stand trial for her crimes. On the other hand, he could have left her on Cloud City and she would not be harmed. That's the point Yoda and Obi-wan were trying to make. Nothing about their fates were certain. And if it did mean that they would die, then that was something that they prepared for.

    But it still needed Luke's proton torpedo to do the trick.
    Only based on the way he was flying. If Han came at it straight from above, he could have made that shot.

    And Anakin wanted to control everything and yet sounded like a whiny brat every step of the way. Luke was that in the first movie, Anakin was that in the last two..
    Luke was like that in TESB. He was whiny and did act very immature once he arrived on Dagobah. Luke is different in ROTJ, because he's learned a very harsh lesson and has spent a year reassessing everything. Hence his personality is different when we see him. Anakin did mature in ROTS, which was why he and Obi-wan were in a much better place than at the start of the war. Anakin's change began because of Padme.

    No. It was Luke as the Savior story in the OT and the Fall of Anakin in the PT. IT was made the Tragedy of Darth Vader after the fact and they used explanations to cover what the movies didn't cover.
    Luke isn't the savior in the OT. It is Anakin at the end. Luke only does his part leading into that. After all, it is Anakin that destroys the Sith in ROTJ. Not Luke. This was before the PT. The other stuff still applies to Anakin, because we're seeing his rise and fall as much as we saw Luke's rise.

    They don't mention it after they say it in TPM. Yoda, Luke, Palpatine, when they talk about the Force in the other movies, they talk about the Force, not the living or the cosmic one.
    It doesn't matter if they don't mention it, it is still part of the Force. It always has been since the third draft. Lucas was now defining it in the PT, because he could sit down and delve into it. When Obi-wan talks about the Forcing having an influence on the weak minded, that's the Living Force. When Luke wants to know about his friends, that's the Unifying Force.

    Balance means equilibrium. Equal amount of this and equal amount of that. You want something that moves around, that's a see-saw or a pendulum.
    Which is correct. Light and dark always exist. The Jedi and the Sith are not the avatars of the Force. They are merely those who seek to protect and corrupt the balance, respectfully. The Force had been balanced for twenty five thousand years before TPM and it is balanced again at the end of ROTJ. Equal numbers of Jedi and Sith were not and is not balance. The Force itself is the scale. What Sidious does in the PT is what causes the imbalance. Starting the war, creating a climate of fear and greed and creating his dominion did it. What the Skywalkers do in the OT is the opposite of that. They unite many worlds together the cause of freedom. They take away the fear by destroying the Death Stars. Everyone who fights for the Alliance does so because they think of others over themselves, the opposite of greed. Han even joins the Alliance because it's the right thing to do. The victory at Endor results in the beginning of the end of the Empire and we see the people rejoice as a result.

  8. #1658

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mat001 View Post



    The bottom line is Lucas has never not tinkered with his movies. The Jabba scene adds a new wrinkle which is that Han is given one last chance to redeem himself for Jabba, something not in the Greedo scene.
    you were answering someone else, but I thought I'd chime in here...aye, this is true, but there is also an implication in Greedo's dialogue that Jabba was still weighing up what to do in regards to punishing Han, 'He may only take your ship.'. Does Solo actually have a bounty on his head when Greedo confronts him? If so, I guess Jabba just did that to save face.
    You will know this already, being an expert on sw, but the snippet of dialogue that was cut from Greedo's original dialogue, where he blantantly says to Solo he is taking him outside to shoot him, when taken together with the previous line and the 'I've been looking forward to this...', implies that Greedo is just wanting to kill Han for personal reasons, not caring whether Jabba has further use for him or not.

    It's that omitted line of dialogue that gave way to Lucas tinkering with the scene in the special edition, as in the final edit it is not so obvious that Greedo is going to actually kill Han, so it doesn't technially look like self defence. But, the dialogue flows better without it, it sounds wonky included, shoehorned in.

    For anyone who has not seen it, you can hear the full dialogue in the unedited cantina scene that is up on youtube, with lots more leftout stuff that is interesting.

    Ironically, because he took out that wonky bit of dialogue, we were ultimately left with the wonky re-do of the 'who shot first' action shot.
    and as we all know, it was just fine in the original cut, with Solo reading between the lines(as one was edited out haha), and shooting him.

    Also, in regards to the Jabba scene, it's also useful for storytelling purposes as it explains how Han was able to leave Tatooine unscathed, as it would be easy for Jabba to track where his ship was docked.
    When I was a kid, I did not know Jabba was based on Tatooine until I saw Return of the Jedi, there is no way of knowing that without the re-inserted Jabba scene. At the end of Empire I always thought it implied that Lando and Chewie were gonna have to look through a few bases/planets before they found Han, essentially saying they'd let luke and leaia know when they 'found him'.
    And in actual fact, they did a Marvel comic in 81 or 82 where they showed exactly this, Lando wearing an eyepatch as a disguise and going undercover with crooks on another planet, trying to find out where Han was stashed. So it wasn't just the fans who didn't realise Jabba was on Tatooine all along.
    Last edited by listenuscrewheads; 12-10-2012 at 02:30 PM.

  9. #1659
    Elder Member Mat001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guapo Mendez
    But they didn't want to.
    But then they okayed it and welcomed him into the Temple.

    And we have seen he was very sensitive at that age.
    Ten years later, he has nothing but respect for Yoda and Mace.

    Yeah, but if it was sensitive for you to be separated from your mother when you're 9, why on Earth did you wait 10 years to do something about it? Didn't you say the galaxy is a shithole because people don't help each other? Why coulnd't the Jedi or the Nabooideans help you rescue your mother?
    Because the Republic was corrupt and broken, a shadow of its former glory. The Force is going out of balance, because people were more self absorbed in their own affairs than in the greater good. Hence no one cared about what went on in the Outer Rim, because it was controlled by the Hutts. The Senate was bogged down in corruption and greed. A lot was needed to fix what was done over a thousand years. The Jedi themselves had wrapped themselves too much into the affairs of the Senate and thus didn't do the kinds of noble things that they once did.

    But that doesn't change the fact that they left her as a slave for years.
    He doesn't hold that against them. He blames himself and Obi-wan, more than he does the Council.

    Must not have been too much of a drag to him. After all, he wanted to kill him and rule with Amidala.
    By then he was twisted and evil. By then, Palpatine had turned the Republic into the Empire which supported what Anakin believed in for years. Hence the meadow picnic in AOTC.

    The "Maul" bit was in the movies or in the cartoon?
    In "Star Wars Tales".

    Hamlet wasn't suddenly the champion horse racer in Denmark, built the boat that took him to England nor was suddenly the brother to Rosencrantz.
    You're missing the relevance to the central theme of both stories, which is a man who fights against destiny and winds up succumbing to it. The other stuff is just back story to get to the central point.

    I know that Lucas set up a universe in the OT and he didn't follow it in the prequels. He moved elements around, he lowered ages, created motives to make his outlandish character feel believable. For instance, the loss of a parent can be as damaging when you're 9-18-40-50. It depends on how well you handle the story and Lucas, by his own admission, had a hard time making it believable.
    It's not the loss so much as the separation. The separation is more serious at age nine than at twelve. You're more emotionally dependent on your parents as a nine year old than you are as twelve year old. Hence for Anakin's concern for Shmi in TPM lies in being separated from her and his fear for her welfare. It wouldn't be as strong if he were older.

    If you do, expect to pay the consequences.
    What consequences? All three films were successful. They did their jobs. Not everyone knows of the statements he made about percentages except the raging fans.

    Lucas met with Episode I novelisation author Terry Brooks and admitted that he would have liked the story to revolve around Anakin more, and together they re-developed the Episode I novelisation to center around the character. "George felt there should be more focus on Anakin Skywalker than what he was able to do in the movie", Brooks related to Star Wars Insider.

    And: "I had a lot of extraneous stories goin on that I could have tied up, but when you really got down to it, it was really Darth Vader's story. I focused in on Darth Vader and Darth Vader was the key element. So, Padme starting the rebel alliance. A lot o f these other things with Obi-Wan and some of the oother characters, Yoda and the Jedi council, al these other things had to go by the wayside and I just focused on everything that was Anakin related."

    He had to focus on Anakin after Episode I had rolled and they even had to recut ROTS to make it fit. He actively re-wrote to make it fit the "It's all Anakin's story" bit. Padme's death vision is a post-production trick; they added a scene with Anakin and Yoda, the scene with Anakin's turn was reshot in response to the Padme-centric view of his downfall.

    He didn't plan the prequels well and it shows.
    Lucas has long said that his way of making films is to film what was written, edit it, make changes a year later and then go from there. Stuff like the Alliance, sure that would have been nice to see, but we still know that it comes into existence. We know that Bail is one of the founding members of it.

    But it is a popular sport, a dangerous sport and it has 2 more planets as fans.
    I know that. I was listening two planets, not every single one.

    It's not playing pool at Toschi station: it has thousands of fans, "tv" coverage and announcers. Sounds better than being a moisture farmer and it's does not involve the Academy.
    Which changes nothing. Luke didn't want to race pods, he wanted to fight in the Rebellion. If Owen was interested in protecting Luke from the war, he definitely would not encourage Luke to take part in a dangerous sport. You don't substitute one danger for another. That's like saying it's okay to be a cop, but not a member of the bomb squad. Both are equally dangerous.

    Man is so fast, he's fast asleep. It was just another plot point he introduced and discarded when he had to wrap up his bloated story.
    He discarded it because he didn't need another, "I am your father" moment. He needed to illustrate that that the Force and the Midichlorians were essential in creating life, but also that it was possible to cheat death. That's why in the opera scene, Anakin never questions about Plagueis creating him. Rather, he focuses on the more important aspect of the legend, which is cheating death.

    Hey, you brought Christ into this bit. We don't have gospells saying that he was more of a wunderkind when he was a kid, that he did turn when the Devil tempted him in the desert and tha the worked for the Pontius Pilates for 40 years until he killed him and self-crucified.
    The Bible skips over a good chunk of Christ's life. It goes to a certain point and then jumps to when he's older. So we never see how he was during the lost years. My point though, was that Christ had all these abilities that made him unique. Anakin had his own set of abilities that made him unique. If you can buy into one, then you can buy into the other.

    Fanboy wankery was having Anakin to be Superkid who succeeds even when he's hardly trying.
    How is that wankery?

    Fanboy wankery is Jango Fett, Boba Fett and the Wookies in the final battle.
    Jango and Boba were part of the back story going back to TESB. Wookiees were no different than seeing the other species shown in the OT.

    Fanboy wankery is Chewbacca knowing Yoda.
    Which isn't a contradiction since there was nothing to disprove it in the OT.

    Fanboy wankery would have been to see the birth of Han Solo in the Millenium Falcon.
    Fortunately for you, Lucas never filmed those scenes.

    Lucas needed to make Anakin flying a starfighter believable and he had him pilot a pod.
    Which works. Just like a landspeeder and a skyhopper worked in place of an X-Wing for Luke.

    The misison at hand was more important than a pod race. They could have used the Force on another dealer, gotten him to trade Watto for the part, deal with the hundreds/thousands dying and then returning for the kid.
    The mission is the parts and the boy. Qui-gon listened to the Force and saw it as the viable solution.

  10. #1660
    Elder Member Mat001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guapo Mendez
    But if the physical part is important, you cannot divorce it from the mental one. They should go hand in hand, and not be replaced later as "my family is strong in the Force".
    It isn't divorced. Luke's problems center around having no knowledge of the Force for twenty years. His mind was shaped one way and it was Yoda's job to reshape Luke's mind into thinking like a Jedi. This was easier with Anakin because he was nine. His mind was still mallable. This is one of the reasons why the Jedi preferred to train from birth. Think of it like this; it's easier to learn another language from a young age than it is at an older one. Children of bi-lingual families have it far easier learning another language than a teenager learning in high school, or an adult in their forties. Note that at the academic level, it has become a requirement in many schools.

    It could also mean he comes from a family of believers, strong minded believers that can connect with the Force like no others.
    Except it didn't. That's not how it was phrased by Kasdan in ROTJ, nor how Lucas first described it in the second draft of ANH. Lucas even discussed it in 1977, when first setting up the rules of the EU.

    Yoda would know Anakin's count was higher than his, but he had no way of knowing how big Luke's was. Forcing him to move the X-Wing with him having a low midichlorian count is setting him up to fail. It doesn't matter how much he believes, if he doesn't have the horsepower, he ain't gonna move that ship.
    Right. Fortunately, Yoda already knew before the children were taken off to be hidden.

    OT and PT explanations don't match.
    Yes, it does. You are trying to twist it around to suit your argument.

    There was a set amount of time to make this the story of Anakin Skywalker. Wasting time presenting previously unseen/unmentioned characters, pod races and picnics took time from the real story.
    The story was told.

    What argument? That Lucas wasted time he didn't have to present characters he didn't need to tell the story of the character we cared about? The time to present all those extra characters was the cartoon or TV specials. The first three movies should have been about Anakin Skywalker and how he became Darth Vader, not being a jazz-riff that had to be hastily edited into the third part of the story.
    And they were. TPM showed Anakin's time with his mother, meeting Padme, becoming a hero and entering the Jedi Order. Step one. AOTC showed Anakin falling in love with Padme and getting married, so that we know how his children came to be. We also saw Anakin's first grapple with the dark side and the beginning of his involvement in the Clone Wars. Step two. ROTS showed Anakin killing in cold blood, his desire to become more powerful, his falling out with the Jedi, his decision to turn evil and finally becoming Vader himself. Step three. Anakin becoming Vader in ROTS isn't hastily done. It happens as organically as it can, just as Luke becoming a Jedi takes until ROTJ to finally happen.

    Tarkin was an agent of the Empire, but Vader was a fallen Jedi that slaughtered the Jedi. Vader fought and killed Obi-Wan. Tarkin didn't leave his office.
    Tarkin gave the order to destroy Alderaan. He held Vader's leash. He gave the order to put the beacon on the Falcon. And he gave the order to destroy Yavin 4.

    Darth Maul was one of the fabled Sith Lords and he slew Obi-Wan's mentor. This should have let him last longer in the PT than Jar Jar Binks.
    And Tarkin should have been in TESB. You can't always get what you want. You do get what you need, which is Dooku as a leader of the Confederacy and a reflection of Anakin's own conflict with his son.

    Had high hopes for the boy they left to be a farmer in the arse-end of the universe and was disappointed that he was a kid who craved adventure?
    Dagobah is just as arse-ended as Tatooine.

    Yoda was over 800 years, so he had more practice dealing with boredom, but it's unfair to paint a green kid from the sticks with the same brush. He's bothered more by Luke's attitude than he is of his age.
    Attitude and age go hand-in-hand.

    Maul dying in TPM cut whatever motivation Obi-Wan had in finding his mentor's killer and had to present us another bad guy in AOTC.
    And TESB presented Boba Fett and Sidious. As to the rest, that's just wankery on your part. Eliminating Maul takes him out, but leaves the real threat, which is Sidious out there. Obi-wan does need to seek revenge, because that's Anakin's deal.

    And then another bad guy in ROTS
    And we had another bad guy in ROTJ, named Jabba the Hutt.

    Quote Originally Posted by listenuscrewheads
    you were answering someone else, but I thought I'd chime in here...aye, this is true, but there is also an implication in Greedo's dialogue that Jabba was still weighing up what to do in regards to punishing Han, 'He may only take your ship.'. Does Solo actually have a bounty on his head when Greedo confronts him? If so, I guess Jabba just did that to save face.
    You will know this already, being an expert on sw, but the snippet of dialogue that was cut from Greedo's original dialogue, where he blantantly says to Solo he is taking him outside to shoot him, when taken together with the previous line and the 'I've been looking forward to this...', implies that Greedo is just wanting to kill Han for personal reasons, not caring whether Jabba has further use for him or not.

    It's that omitted line of dialogue that gave way to Lucas tinkering with the scene in the special edition, as in the final edit it is not so obvious that Greedo is going to actually kill Han, so it doesn't technially look like self defence. But, the dialogue flows better without it, it sounds wonky included, shoehorned in.

    For anyone who has not seen it, you can hear the full dialogue in the unedited cantina scene that is up on youtube, with lots more leftout stuff that is interesting.

    Ironically, because he took out that wonky bit of dialogue, we were ultimately left with the wonky re-do of the 'who shot first' action shot.
    and as we all know, it was just fine in the original cut, with Solo reading between the lines(as one was edited out haha), and shooting him.
    Han's still reading between the lines which is why Lucas left in Han pulling out his blaster while talking to Greedo. He was prepared to shoot Greedo. Just that now, Greedo gets off a shot first.

    Also, in regards to the Jabba scene, it's also useful for storytelling purposes as it explains how Han was able to leave Tatooine unscathed, as it would be easy for Jabba to track where his ship was docked.
    When I was a kid, I did not know Jabba was based on Tatooine until I saw Return of the Jedi, there is no way of knowing that without the re-inserted Jabba scene. At the end of Empire I always thought it implied that Lando and Chewie were gonna have to look through a few bases/planets before they found Han, essentially saying they'd let luke and leaia know when they 'found him'.
    And in actual fact, they did a Marvel comic in 81 or 82 where they showed exactly this, Lando wearing an eyepatch as a disguise and going undercover with crooks on another planet, trying to find out where Han was stashed. So it wasn't just the fans who didn't realise Jabba was on Tatooine all along.
    True, but if you pay attention to what Han says when confronted by Greedo, he says that he was on his way to talk to Jabba. It was clear that Jabba was there, but not that he lived there until ROTJ. The other part seemed to be the case and the EU did expand upon it by adding places that Hutts go to.

  11. #1661
    The Mexican James Bond Guapo Méndez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mat001 View Post
    Which still doesn't change the rest of what I said. It only comes off as a cheap trick since there was no reference to the sibling until TESB.
    Lucas said it was a cheap trick. Not Mat001. George Lucas.

    He didn't drop any plot point. It was revealed within the films themselves. As to Obi-wan's role, it's far from diminished in TPM. He still has a substantial part regardless.
    He's not brash, he's not reckless. He's the perfect apprentice. Qui-Gon Jinn is brash and reckless. Lucas said he had to drop plot points he worke din TPM and AOTC in order to fit ROTS in around 2 hours.

    In ANH, Vader didn't know that he had children. Leia was captured only to find the Rebel base and he only becomes obsessed with Luke after the Death Star was destroyed. Because of this Obi-wan gave Luke his father's saber and told him the truth. Their first option was out now and he was the back up.
    But the original point still stands: if they didn't want Luke to have attachments, he should have remained with Yoda in Dagobah.

    Owen gave Luke responsibilities which a lot of good parents do. Luke had chores which a lot of farm kids have to do. That doesn't mean that Luke was treated like hired help. He was treating him the same way his father treated him years ago. Luke thinks it's unfair because he's a kid, who doesn't like it when he has fun time interrupted. And Owen did need help from Luke. It wasn't a dick thing to do.
    All we see in the 12 hours we spend at the Lars household is Luke working in the field, selecting the robots, working on the robots, finding the message and saying the robots will work fine and he'll be able to go to the Academy, like his uncle promised. Then he's told no, take the robots to have their memories erased and stop slacking (when all we've seen is Luke working diligently).

    Why? Luke had no interest in pod racing. He had already done his racing stint when he was nine and had gotten in trouble for it.
    Getting in trouble for it is not the same as getting over something. He didn't race Beggar's Canyon more because he busted his T-16. His uncle could have encouraged that instead of the Academy, to distract him from it.

    That's not how it works. The attachment is the fear of losing the ones you care for and the greed, jealousy, anger, possessive and obsessiveness that can come with it. When you put the needs of yourself ahead of the needs of others.
    How is trying to save your friend's lives putting yourself ahead of the needs of others? Putting yourself ahead of others is stopping to watch a race when Nabooideans are dying.

    No, it wouldn't. Xanatos should not have sided with his father. Luke should have stayed on Dagobah and finished his training. Anakin should not have obsessed over cheating death. Ahsoka learned from Luminara that she was hurting herself and endangering Anakin's life, by refusing to do what needed to be done.
    That's with a grown Luke (and a guy who never made it into the movies). Baby Luke trained by Yoda...he would have had the perfect padawan.

    Except Lucas never intended to show any of that at any point in time. Even before he began working on the PT.
    He didn't need to show anything: just leave Amidala alive. Until she died in the end of ROTS, we thought she was alive and raised Leia. He implied the character had depth and suffered for the war she started and then, in one swift stroke, undid that and gave us ForceVision.

    He didn't block their access to the Force. The Force did that to them because they were losing their connection to the Living Force. The dark side grew exponentially to the point where they couldn't see future events. What Sidious did around the Council was just cut himself off from the Force, the same way that Ventress tried it around Dooku when they first met and what Jacen did years later.
    So now the Force punished them for being ineffective? Man, did the Force ever punish the Sith, the actual bad guys? And you can cut yoursel off from the Force? How, you shut down your midichlorians? And you just reopen them? I thought they couldn't do that and that's why Yoda had to hide in Dagobah, to counter the Force he emitted and not be located by the Sith/Empire.

    True, but as it is now, we know that he didn't because she had no Jedi training. Same with Luke, who was on the Death Star and not sensed by Vader. He didn't sense Luke until he went to destroy the Death Star.
    But Anakin had no training and yet Qui-Gon sensed something in the boy.

    But he didn't know that Obi-wan was two feet from him. Vader didn't sense Luke was a couple hundred feet on the other side of the hangar on Hoth. Sidious didn't sense Luke arriving at Endor like Vader did. Again, sensing each other in the Force is not like Immortals sensing each other in "Highlander".
    Like I said, writer inconsistency.

    Quite the opposite. The system ran so smoothly that they didn't need to do that. Not to mention it was well outside of the Republic, which is something that isn't going to be brought up that often in conversation.

    An Astromech could have been used to hack the passwords, if there were any at all.
    But they still lost Kamino and all references to it. And they even mocked Obi-Wan when he brought it up to Yoda and the Younglings.

    Technically true and technically false. Lucas wasn't going to give it away to the general audience when he spoke about it. Hence going the extra mile with those statements. He was already aware that the online community knew about AOTC's plot, including Sido-Dyas. His statements were for the larger audience that weren't spoiled earlier. That's why Sifo-Dyas was left to the EU.
    So he said something about the plot to play for the audience and then left it out? Shocking. And those unspoiled people that went to see the movie and found in it nothing to help explain who Sifo-Dyas was? When I was watching, I thougth "who is this guy? 10 years? that's around TPM...there wasn't a guy named Sifo-Dyas back then."

    They were safe on Tatooine because of the Hutts. Ergo, there was no need to rush. There was no one else who was going to exchange the money and no one else had the parts needed. And Watto wasn't going to sell the boy, not for something so messily.
    .

    They had to escape Naboo in order to get to Coruscant to tell them about the invasion. Large droid armies had invaded and they were putting the pressure on the government to make them yield to the Trade Federation.
    That's not leaving a picnic to go return a movie. They effectively left a war zone in order to take in a Nascar race when they could have gotten greyhound tickets in order to fulfill their mission.

    There was no battle. The government just surrendered. Only a few pockets of resistance were left. And as Obi-wan and Qui-gon discussed, Bibble's message could have been a ploy to make Padme respond. They could only go with what they knew right now.
    They knew the death toll was catastrophic and they knew the Federation was there in spades. Not responding to the message helped them not to reveal their position (but a plot hole later and there goes Maul to their hidey-hole...and wouldn't you know it? they are there because they are betting on the outcome of a race! The Queen left her people to cheer for a 9 year old!), but the urgency in their mission was still red hot.

    They already knew all of this before leaving Polis Massa. They would have tested both children and saw that they had the same potential as their father. Luke's problems wasn't his Midichlorian count, but his mental ability to accept it.

    YODA: "You must unlearn, what you have learned."
    Belief.
    And the midichlorians might have been a genetic component, but they could appear in kids from non-force using families. Since they can't be transfered (blood transfusions/clones can't inherit the Force connection) it's irrelevant to try and raise kids with high midichlorian counts. Add to that the fact that Jedi can't marry and you've made the genetic part of the Force irrelevant.

    The intercom summoning was the reason why they went to the command room straight after seeing Luke.
    But they could have cut the kiss without too much trouble.

  12. #1662
    The Mexican James Bond Guapo Méndez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mat001 View Post
    You're the most vocal about it.
    Hey, I wish Lucas had kept things straight. When you write something, you better remember how you did it in order not to contradict yourself later on.

    No. Hasn't for years and years. Just like it probably doesn't for a lot of people.
    It still is a bad way to tell a story. Especially when he touted he knew it all since 1977.

    You're misinterpreting it. Lucas took what was important and focused on it. The newer stuff was in developing and exploring the stuff that he was interested in telling. The pod race was the cumulation of Anakin's origin and establishing his abilities. The meadow picnic was to establish the relationship between Anakin and Padme. Story elements were still advanced such as Anakin's political leanings and Padme's falling in love with Anakin.
    How can you misinterpret George Walton Lucas when he says there is padding in the story?

    Look, all writers are master bullshitters. They have to be. They will say they always had in mind the high concepts, the cool stuff, the subtextual, metatextual and poignant social critique. Even when they have no clue how they did it. When Lucas admits he was making it up all along and decided to have fun and pad the story, that's the unvarnished truth. And he has, several times. He may embellish the epic tale of making Star Wars, but he has also admitted he spent time he didn't have in telling parts of the story we didn't need.

    What needs to be explained?
    Just to use one example: if you haven't seen The Clone Wars, you have no idea who Grievous is, why is he so scary and why does he cough like a 4 pack a day smoker.

    Anakin wasn't going to participate in the space battle. He was only seeking to help Qui-gon and Obi-wan, who were distracted by Maul and didn't see the Droidekas. He got dragged into the battle, yes, but he opted to stay in it once he got there.
    He had to be dragged by the plot so we could believe him to be the unlikely, unbelievable hero of the story. Lucas admitted that was one of the tough sells in TPM.

    The shields weren't designed to keep out ships. Just blaster bolts.
    Didn't you in the other thread type that the shields opened up just in time to allow Anakin because another ship from the Trade Federation was leaving?

    The droids aren't smart to begin with. That was established early on. As to the location of the generator, why wouldn't it be put there?
    Again, the plot had to be dumbed down for Anakin to succeed. And you don't put the generator near the hangar because a damaged ship or a malfunctioning weapons system can blow up your ship.

    He still asked the opinions of others and took their advice.
    In some cases, the branch was too crooked to be fixed. In others, he just nodded and went ahead anyway.

    The bottom line is Lucas has never not tinkered with his movies. The Jabba scene adds a new wrinkle which is that Han is given one last chance to redeem himself for Jabba, something not in the Greedo scene.
    It's redundant. We heard the same dialogue minutes before and it's jarring.

    Tougher, but not impossible.
    And not believable.

    He addressed what was important to the story.
    He said he had to leave plot points up in the air and focus on Vader. Which is what he should have done from the beginning.

    No, it just means that Jedi training is a crap shoot no matter how it's done. It always comes down to what the Jedi chooses to do with their knowledge. Anakin was successfully trained in nearly every way. His failure was in making a choice to go against that training. Luke succeeded, but went against what Yoda and Obi-wan wanted him to do. Dooku was a Jedi Master when he fell because of his own personal fears and anger over what the Jedi had become. Being a Jedi is a constant struggle between staying the course and taking the easy way out.
    But the parts he wasn't successfully trained could have been solved easily: helping his mother, giving him a more seasoned trainer, keeping him away from all the politics. Lucas, bless his little heart, tried to make Anakin's fall believable, but he just focused in the basic-level version, when he implied it was master degree stuff. It's like if in ANH the Death Star would have blown up by itself. The good guys didn't need to do anything to win the day: just show up.

    No, they send someone who is capable of understanding why his father became evil, because now he understands the Force a lot better than he had before coming to Dagobah. In other words, they were going to train Luke until he was like he is in ROTJ and then tell him the truth, before sending him on his way.
    But not telling him and letting him know that in the heat of battle almost got him killed. Telling him that Vader was his father would have let him be a bit more prepared. the problem here and in the PT is the way the Jedi lied to their Knights and then acted surprised when it blew up in their faces.

    But nothing that wasn't so important to the film. ROTS covered everything that needed to be said.
    And all the stuff that made up TPM and AOTC, all the extra stuff was proven not to be needed in the climax. And what's the stuff that is not important to the climax?
    Padding.

    Luke wasn't ready for the knowledge yet, hence pleading with him not to go.
    Not knowing almost got him killed.

    A sacrifice Han and Leia would gladly make for Luke, if it meant destroying the Sith and toppling the Empire.
    And Luke was putting their needs ahead of his own. It's not like he was rescuing his pets or his Jedi Card collection. These were important people to the Rebellion.

    True on the first, but she was still a war criminal. There was no guarantee that she would stay on Cloud City, if Luke had shown up or not. If he didn't take the bait, Vader could have taken her to Coruscant to stand trial for her crimes. On the other hand, he could have left her on Cloud City and she would not be harmed. That's the point Yoda and Obi-wan were trying to make. Nothing about their fates were certain. And if it did mean that they would die, then that was something that they prepared for.
    Vader said he was going to leave them there and Lando was wise enough no to talk and make him spoil the deal. Besides, he absconded with them and abandoned Cloud City and joined the Rebellion.

    Only based on the way he was flying. If Han came at it straight from above, he could have made that shot.
    But the point is that the Death Star didn't blow up by itself. ANH had the Rebel Alliance knowing a flaw in the Death Star and exploiting it. They knew where to hit and with what. TPM has the Naboo fighters in a suicide attack, Anakin completely clueless about the fight and then land in the most convenient spot to fire a torpedo and then making it out alive.

    Play dead, Plot. Good plot! Good plot!

    Luke was like that in TESB. He was whiny and did act very immature once he arrived on Dagobah. Luke is different in ROTJ, because he's learned a very harsh lesson and has spent a year reassessing everything. Hence his personality is different when we see him. Anakin did mature in ROTS, which was why he and Obi-wan were in a much better place than at the start of the war. Anakin's change began because of Padme.
    In ROTS Anakin turns on a dime on the Jedi, his friends, the younglings, Padme. The post-production cut and pasting of the scenes does not help the story and his conversion is completely unbelievable.

    Luke isn't the savior in the OT. It is Anakin at the end. Luke only does his part leading into that. After all, it is Anakin that destroys the Sith in ROTJ. Not Luke. This was before the PT. The other stuff still applies to Anakin, because we're seeing his rise and fall as much as we saw Luke's rise.
    Of course he is. He destroys the Death Star, he's the reason why Anakin turned to the Light side again and he'll reignite the Jedi fire in the Galaxy.
    It was Luke's story before the PT reared its ugly head. He changed it later, when he decided it was all the Tragedy of Darth Vader.

    It doesn't matter if they don't mention it, it is still part of the Force. It always has been since the third draft. Lucas was now defining it in the PT, because he could sit down and delve into it. When Obi-wan talks about the Forcing having an influence on the weak minded, that's the Living Force. When Luke wants to know about his friends, that's the Unifying Force.
    Hey, if he had kept the naming consistent, I'd give it props. But in the OT it's light and dark and in the PT is living and unifying. Consistency, George, consistency.

  13. #1663

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guapo Méndez View Post
    In ROTS Anakin turns on a dime on the Jedi, his friends, the younglings, Padme. The post-production cut and pasting of the scenes does not help the story and his conversion is completely unbelievable.
    In a reply to one of my earlier posts where I mentioned this, Mat posited that Anakin in his madness-bordering grief (my wording, not his) had no choice "but to go forward with Palpatine," i.e. that was his only option after preventing Mace Windu from destroying Don Palpatinos.

    Since it's easier to reply here than go and dig for it, I don't buy that reasoning because to do so would render Anakin a robot. After listening to Palp's spiel about dark things the Sith can do that Jedi cannot, and with Mace's arrival with the other Jedi (who were all dispatched with an unintentionally hilarious ease), to imagine that Anakin had not yet put two and two together and deduced that Palp was a Sith would make him a pretty stupid guy. He should have come to his senses and not killed Mace. To start to believe somebody's bullshit about "killing death" points to self-delusion.
    Last edited by verslibre; 12-10-2012 at 11:03 PM.

  14. #1664
    Rargh! Alex's Avatar
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    \
    This discussion has more thought put into it then the prequels.
    BOOM!

  15. #1665
    Senior Member Castel's Avatar
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    In ROTS Anakin turns on a dime on the Jedi, his friends, the younglings, Padme. The post-production cut and pasting of the scenes does not help the story and his conversion is completely unbelievable.
    That's something i don't understand about revenge of the sith. The scene when Anakin gives his ass to the emperor and the birth of the twins scene are so freaking weirdly directed and acted.

    And that's supposed to be really important moments.

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