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  1. #241
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    it's just like every other industry/company. A lot of pensions and such have gone by the wayside in this new economy. She's playing a sad song that many older people can attest to in some way.

  2. #242

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    Marvel are still paying her, it's just that it's less since NC's dead... to promote Pixie. >:(
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  3. #243
    BAMF Brigade Sundowhn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swashbuckler View Post
    it's just like every other industry/company. A lot of pensions and such have gone by the wayside in this new economy. She's playing a sad song that many older people can attest to in some way.
    True enough about pensions, but that isn't the case in this situation. What she is talking about is creator rights for an independently created intellectual property. Nightcrawler was not created for Marvel, specifically, or while Cockrum was under contract with them. This was also in the days prior to Marvel becoming a huge corporation with itemized contracts, etc that basically claimed all creative efforts from their employees.

    Cockrum created Storm, Colossus, Magik, Mystique and many, many others, but he either adapted them specifically for Marvel's use or created them while employed by Marvel, some in conjunction with writers like Claremont. Nightcrawler was introduced as is, and was apparently put under some type of terms-of-use clause. I would think as long as they use his likeness/name/whatever, they can retain sole rights to the character, but pay the creator -- or by the contract, his widow -- a fee(they are renting him, as such). If they don't use him in some form for a certain amount of time, I expect the Cockrum estate would regain full ownership of the character and could do what they wanted with him, up to and including "renting" him to the competition. Marvel, it seems, doesn't want to give up sole use of the character, but Paty seems to believe they are minimizing how much exposure he has to minimize any payments she receives.

    By what she said, it appears as though the movies and games are exempt from this, and it is only Nightcrawler's likeness in comics or toys/statuary that goes towards it.

    Is she bitter? Probably. Is she justified in feeling bitter? In reading her posts on another forum, talking about many different characters -- not just Nightcrawler -- she and Dave had a genuine love of the genre and the fictional personalities, much like Claremont, and, like any fan, she wants to see the characters treated well. I think, yes, she is justified in being bitter that her late husband's contribution was discounted by the Marvel office (imagine an X-Men universe not only without Nightcrawler, as now, but also without Storm, Colossus, Magik, Hepzibah, the Phoenix Force and many others). Considering all Cockrum did -- I mean AvX wouldn't have existed without this man (to name a recent bundle of money Marvel has made from something created by Cockrum/Claremont) -- I don't think she's being greedy or unreasonable to want a pittance for use of Nightcrawler.

    Yeah, that's a wall of text. Lol.
    Last edited by Sundowhn; 11-13-2012 at 10:26 AM.

  4. #244
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    It's definitely sad, but I think it's overly paranoid to say that Nightcrawler is being intentionally killed off and not put in the new movie because he has extra royalty payments.

  5. #245
    Magnetocentric Rivka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shingen View Post
    I don't see how his wife is more entitled to an opinion than a fan. She's not the creator; she likely hasn't followed the character for 30+ years. And while i am sympathetic to her difficulties, it isn't as though her opinion is totally objective.
    Paty is a creator. She worked for Marvel in the marketing department, as a colorist and artist, before she met Dave, before Dave left DC. She was known as Paty Greer, then. And she has followed her favorite characters all this time. She was particularly annoyed by Nightcrawler's death mainly because it seemed pointless at the time, and she felt the lack of respect shown the character was a reflection of a lack of respect for Dave Cockrum as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by motherofpearl1 View Post
    Wow.

    I thought Joe Q's attitude to long time fans stank but this.....

    Dave was a legend. Sad to see the corporation he helped make a success refer to him as 'washed up'. Nothing in the world is as bad as being made to feel useless. Don't worry Joe. Your time will come. No one is fashionable for ever.
    It wasn't Joe Quesada. He'd just been named EinC but Jemas called the shots during this time. (Bob Harras was the one black-balling Dave Cockrum. Dave called Marvel as soon as he heard that Harras had been fired, and there was a new EinC.) Dave discussed this with Mr. Quesada in 2004 when he (Dave) was sick, and Joe Quesada visited him in the VA hospital (I think it was in the Bronx) at least twice. Joe also called and kept in communication during Dave's hospitalization. And he helped facilitate the Nightcrawler royalties whenever Kurt is used as a licensed property (not when he appears in the comics). Joe Quesada denied it was he who talked to Dave that day. And I believe it. Joe is an artist himself -- he just wouldn't say that to another artist. It seems it was some jerk office assistant, or associate who took the call. Joe Quesada told Dave Cockrum personally, that he never talked to Dave that day, and wouldn't have said such derogatory things about another aritst, and Dave accepted this.

  6. #246
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    Good post, Rivka. But you're not helping to make the case that you're not Patty.

  7. #247
    Uncanny X-Fan Shingen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivka View Post
    Paty is a creator. She worked for Marvel in the marketing department, as a colorist and artist, before she met Dave, before Dave left DC. She was known as Paty Greer, then. And she has followed her favorite characters all this time. She was particularly annoyed by Nightcrawler's death mainly because it seemed pointless at the time, and she felt the lack of respect shown the character was a reflection of a lack of respect for Dave Cockrum as well. .
    I didn't say she wasn't a creator, but rather that she wasn't the creator - you know, the difference between the indefinite and definite article. My point was that she, as a person who did not create Nightcrawler, is no more entitled to an opinion about him than a fan, which was a specific rebuttal to someone else.

    I am sympathetic to the plight of these older creators, who didn't get much long lasting benefit from their creations. I am more skeptical of the idea that the families of creators should be entitled to profits in perpetuity for something they did not create, or that they should have sway over how the character is portrayed forever.

    With Nightcrawler, specifically, his design was great and Cockrum deserves a lot of credit, but I would argue much of the character's value and power comes from the way Chris Claremont wrote him for years. We have to accept that it is not enough to create a character, draw them for a few years, and then perpetually claim credit for all the value inherent in that character. Cockrum drew Nightcrawler for some 11 or 12 issues, and we can't act as though that was the key to his popularity.
    Last edited by Shingen; 11-13-2012 at 01:40 PM.
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  8. #248
    Senior Member Darthfury78's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chakal View Post
    Let's say this loud: Marvel's legacy was builded on ripping-off artists like Kirby, or Cockrum.
    We all know it. Question is, has anything changed?
    And yet, the USADA went ahead and stripped Lance Armstrong of his Tour de France championship titles because they considered him a cheat, despite the evidence to the contrary.

    But going back on Topic, how come we never hear a similar situation between Stan Lee and John Romita Sr. ?

  9. #249
    Fantacrap=Fantasy + Crap zipppoww's Avatar
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    Whoa! Everybody, Nightcrawler is not going away! I promise! He will return to the comic book at some later date as 616, it will happen. No writer wants him bad enough or there hasn't been a good enough pitch to bring him back. Also he wasn't being used well when he was in the comic so his death served as a development point for Wolverine and they took him off the table for a bit. But I know he will be back.

    How do I know? The property is being used in comics in alternative forms and is regularly accessible in the popular game Avengers Alliance... The character is being leveraged in media and is therefore being used. Hell, you even needed him to get Magik in the game about a month ago. He'll be back.

  10. #250
    Sentinels were right chakal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darthfury78 View Post
    And yet, the USADA went ahead and stripped Lance Armstrong of his Tour de France championship titles because they considered him a cheat, despite the evidence to the contrary.

    But going back on Topic, how come we never hear a similar situation between Stan Lee and John Romita Sr. ?
    It's the exception that proves the rule.

    Man, I don't know how to put it in the words, to not be misunderstood (and called heartless), so let's say that while I understand why she wanted to tell some stories of her life, it all seems like too late. 20 years too late.

    Cockrum is the name all X-fans should know. And pity most of you probably have never read Futurians.

    As much as I miss Nightcrawler, personally I prefer if the dead remain dead. One of the things I dislike in the comic books is the constant resurrections of the characters.
    Last edited by chakal; 11-13-2012 at 02:45 PM.
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